UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

[Celritannia]

Seriously?

It was the only source saying it so like i said, take it with a pinch of salt.

EuroWeekly too, but not sure how reliable it is.

[Bienenhalde]

So, Brexit isn't the fisherman's friend that it was painted to be.

That must be a hard pill to swallow.

In theory, the loss of international seafood sales could have been recouped by increasing domestic consumption. The government should encourage people to buy local seafood.

[Vassenor]

So, Brexit isn't the fisherman's friend that it was painted to be.

That must be a hard pill to swallow.

In theory, the loss of international seafood sales could have been recouped by increasing domestic consumption. The government should encourage people to buy local seafood.

If we were willing to eat local seafood we wouldn't be importing a billion pounds more fish than we export.

[The Blaatschapen]

So, Brexit isn't the fisherman's friend that it was painted to be.

That must be a hard pill to swallow.

In theory, the loss of international seafood sales could have been recouped by increasing domestic consumption. The government should encourage people to buy local seafood.

I would have thought that the kippers would buy more.

[Thanatttynia]

So, Brexit isn't the fisherman's friend that it was painted to be.

That must be a hard pill to swallow.

In theory, the loss of international seafood sales could have been recouped by increasing domestic consumption. The government should encourage people to buy local seafood.

They should give people £10 to spend at their local fishmongers and call it Eat Fish to Help Rishi Sunak

[Ostroeuropa]

The guardian now shilling for anti-vaxers once it found out most of them are minorities. The usual excuses thrown out.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... vid-jab-uk

[Vassenor]

The guardian now shilling for anti-vaxers once it found out most of them are minorities. The usual excuses thrown out.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... vid-jab-uk

Exactly what part of that article is "shilling for anti-vaxxers"?

Or are you interpreting "quoting a SAGE spokesperson talking about why there is general mistrust for the medical profession among the BAME community because of historic racism" as shilling for anti-vaxxers?

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Who benefits from spreading rumours online that the vaccines contain cow and pig products? Certainly isn't ethnic minorities.

[Ostroeuropa]

The guardian now shilling for anti-vaxers once it found out most of them are minorities. The usual excuses thrown out.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... vid-jab-uk

Exactly what part of that article is "shilling for anti-vaxxers"?

Or are you interpreting "quoting a SAGE spokesperson talking about why there is general mistrust for the medical profession among the BAME community because of historic racism" as shilling for anti-vaxxers?

Pretending the reasons for high levels of anti-vax attitude in the black community is down to historical racism and not challenging that is the shilling for them.

Some facts:
Black women are much more likely to refuse the vaccine.
Younger black people are much more likely to refuse the vaccine. (Somewhat flies in the face of their argument).

This does not align with their excuse making.

The real issue is their social media groups. The more time on social media black people spend, the more likely to be an anti-vaxxer. This is also true of white people, but the difference is the problem is much more pronounced for black peoples social media groups.

The guardian won't say that however because it might imply we need to intervene and start policing black peoples social media groups, and that's only for white males complaining about domestic violence agaisnt themselves, not black people prolonging a global plague.

I'd even say it's critical race theory come home to roost. The emphasis on "Storytelling" and contempt for empiricism the theory actively supports meant this kind of mindset was inevitable in black social media groups that skew towards it.

They will always find it "More true" that "The evil white man has poisoned the vaccines" than a scientific document explaining why the vaccine is safe.

[Ostroeuropa]

Who benefits from spreading rumours online that the vaccines contain cow and pig products? Certainly isn't ethnic minorities.

I mean whether they benefit or not, it still could be them. You're also ignoring that fueling grievance against white people and keeping minortiies angry and feeling persecuted absolutely is in some minority persons interests. It's the same reason the republicans in the US ended up anti-lockdown and so on. Fueling a vague sense of anger, suspicion, fear and so on benefits certain people who are geared to take advantage of it, then turn that negativity on their political enemies.

[Vassenor]

Exactly what part of that article is "shilling for anti-vaxxers"?

Or are you interpreting "quoting a SAGE spokesperson talking about why there is general mistrust for the medical profession among the BAME community because of historic racism" as shilling for anti-vaxxers?

Pretending the reasons for high levels of anti-vax attitude in the black community is down to historical racism and not challenging that is the shilling for them.

Some facts:
Black women are much more likely to refuse the vaccine.
Younger black people are much more likely to refuse the vaccine. (Somewhat flies in the face of their argument).

This does not align with their excuse making.

The real issue is their social media groups. The more time on social media black people spend, the more likely to be an anti-vaxxer. This is also true of white people, but the difference is the problem is much more pronounced for black peoples social media groups.

The guardian won't say that however because it might imply we need to intervene and start policing black peoples social media groups, and that's only for white males complaining about domestic violence agaisnt themselves, not black people prolonging a global plague.

I'd even say it's critical race theory come home to roost. The emphasis on "Storytelling" and contempt for empiricism the theory actively supports meant this kind of mindset was inevitable in black social media groups that skew towards it.

They will always find it "More true" that "The evil white man has poisoned the vaccines" than a scientific document explaining why the vaccine is safe.

So basically because you said so and because you needed to go off on one about white males being oppressed by the evil left.

Because like it or not, structural racism against BAME patients a very real thing.

[Vassenor]

Who benefits from spreading rumours online that the vaccines contain cow and pig products? Certainly isn't ethnic minorities.

I mean whether they benefit or not, it still could be them. You're also ignoring that fueling grievance against white people and keeping minortiies angry and feeling persecuted absolutely is in some minority persons interests. It's the same reason the republicans in the US ended up anti-lockdown and so on. Fueling a vague sense of anger, suspicion, fear and so on benefits certain people who are geared to take advantage of it, then turn that negativity on their political enemies.

QED.

[Ostroeuropa]

Pretending the reasons for high levels of anti-vax attitude in the black community is down to historical racism and not challenging that is the shilling for them.

Some facts:
Black women are much more likely to refuse the vaccine.
Younger black people are much more likely to refuse the vaccine. (Somewhat flies in the face of their argument).

This does not align with their excuse making.

The real issue is their social media groups. The more time on social media black people spend, the more likely to be an anti-vaxxer. This is also true of white people, but the difference is the problem is much more pronounced for black peoples social media groups.

The guardian won't say that however because it might imply we need to intervene and start policing black peoples social media groups, and that's only for white males complaining about domestic violence agaisnt themselves, not black people prolonging a global plague.

I'd even say it's critical race theory come home to roost. The emphasis on "Storytelling" and contempt for empiricism the theory actively supports meant this kind of mindset was inevitable in black social media groups that skew towards it.

They will always find it "More true" that "The evil white man has poisoned the vaccines" than a scientific document explaining why the vaccine is safe.

So basically because you said so and because you needed to go off on one about white males being oppressed by the evil left.

I have precisely as much basis for my explanation of the phenomena as SAGE did. Mine also aligns with the demographics more.

SAGE's explanation relies on these people knowing the history of medical racism, while being oblivious to the changes made since then. It relies on this being *overwhelmingly young people and women* without an explanation for how that could possibly be true.

My explanation simply relies on them having a social media account and frequenting black spaces which have normalized a particular anti-empirical style of thinking, constant "validation" and grievance mongering, and so on. This aligns with the demographics in question.

[Vassenor]

So basically because you said so and because you needed to go off on one about white males being oppressed by the evil left.

I have precisely as much basis for my explanation of the phenomena as SAGE did. Mine also aligns with the demographics more.

SAGE's explanation relies on these people knowing the history of medical racism, while being oblivious to the changes made since then. It relies on this being *overwhelmingly young people and women* without an explanation for how that could possibly be true.

My explanation simply relies on them having a social media account and frequenting black spaces which have normalized a particular anti-empirical style of thinking, constant "validation" and grievance mongering, and so on. This aligns with the demographics in question.

So you're going to ignore the research on the matter then.

[Ostroeuropa]

I have precisely as much basis for my explanation of the phenomena as SAGE did. Mine also aligns with the demographics more.

SAGE's explanation relies on these people knowing the history of medical racism, while being oblivious to the changes made since then. It relies on this being *overwhelmingly young people and women* without an explanation for how that could possibly be true.

My explanation simply relies on them having a social media account and frequenting black spaces which have normalized a particular anti-empirical style of thinking, constant "validation" and grievance mongering, and so on. This aligns with the demographics in question.

So you're going to ignore the research on the matter then.

This asserts without basis that the cause is down to racism despite us knowing that biology plays a significant role and once you control for health conditions, there is no disparity. The disparity arises because certain health conditions are much more common in black women. It's one of those sickle cell anemia type things.

It simply points to the disparity and says "It has to be racism" without doing any actual research on the matter, and this is about the level of academia i've come to expect on this topic. It would be like me pointing to the fact poverty exists and saying "And therefore, goblins." without bothering to actually draw a line between those two, because me and my friends will just throw a massive tantrum if you deny such a link exists, and have thrown so many tantrums over so many years that people don't even think a line needs to be drawn anymore and just accept goblins is the obvious explanation for any and all examples of wealth disparity.

It's an example of the steady drip of propaganda that has been fed to black people which has led to outcomes like the mass refusal of vaccines.

Also;

https://i.redd.it/0k0oy3g2dlb61.jpg

[Agarntrop]

So you're going to ignore the research on the matter then.

This asserts without basis that the cause is down to racism despite us knowing that biology plays a significant role and once you control for health conditions, there is no disparity. The disparity arises because certain health conditions are much more common in black women. It's one of those sickle cell anemia type things.

It simply points to the disparity and says "It has to be racism" without doing any actual research on the matter, and this is about the level of academia i've come to expect on this topic. It would be like me pointing to the fact poverty exists and saying "And therefore, goblins." without bothering to actually draw a line between those two, because me and my friends will just throw a massive tantrum if you deny such a link exists, and have thrown so many tantrums over so many years that people don't even think a line needs to be drawn anymore and just accept goblins is the obvious explanation for any and all examples of wealth disparity.

It's an example of the steady drip of propaganda that has been fed to black people which has led to outcomes like the mass refusal of vaccines.

Also;

https://i.redd.it/0k0oy3g2dlb61.jpg

I see you also browse PCM

[Ostroeuropa]

I see you also browse PCM

I love it.

[Vassenor]

So you're going to ignore the research on the matter then.

This asserts without basis that the cause is down to racism despite us knowing that biology plays a significant role and once you control for health conditions, there is no disparity. The disparity arises because certain health conditions are much more common in black women. It's one of those sickle cell anemia type things.

It simply points to the disparity and says "It has to be racism" without doing any actual research on the matter, and this is about the level of academia i've come to expect on this topic. It would be like me pointing to the fact poverty exists and saying "And therefore, goblins." without bothering to actually draw a line between those two, because me and my friends will just throw a massive tantrum if you deny such a link exists, and have thrown so many tantrums over so many years that people don't even think a line needs to be drawn anymore and just accept goblins is the obvious explanation for any and all examples of wealth disparity.

It's an example of the steady drip of propaganda that has been fed to black people which has led to outcomes like the mass refusal of vaccines.

Also;

https://i.redd.it/0k0oy3g2dlb61.jpg

So let's see the data supporting your side of the argument then.

[Ostroeuropa]

This asserts without basis that the cause is down to racism despite us knowing that biology plays a significant role and once you control for health conditions, there is no disparity. The disparity arises because certain health conditions are much more common in black women. It's one of those sickle cell anemia type things.

It simply points to the disparity and says "It has to be racism" without doing any actual research on the matter, and this is about the level of academia i've come to expect on this topic. It would be like me pointing to the fact poverty exists and saying "And therefore, goblins." without bothering to actually draw a line between those two, because me and my friends will just throw a massive tantrum if you deny such a link exists, and have thrown so many tantrums over so many years that people don't even think a line needs to be drawn anymore and just accept goblins is the obvious explanation for any and all examples of wealth disparity.

It's an example of the steady drip of propaganda that has been fed to black people which has led to outcomes like the mass refusal of vaccines.

Also;

https://i.redd.it/0k0oy3g2dlb61.jpg

So let's see the data supporting your side of the argument then.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19303496/

One example.

Black people have higher incidents of certain health conditions even once you control for income. This is not groundbreaking.

Some of those health conditions produce higher mortality rates in childbirth.

[Vassenor]

So let's see the data supporting your side of the argument then.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19303496/

One example.

So what do the symptoms of venous thromboembolism have to do with how different ethnic groups are treated by doctors and its effects on trust among said ethnic groups? Which was the original point being made going right back to the Guardian article.

Or are you just moving the goalposts to keep your argument afloat?

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2372732214548430

Large health disparities persist between Black and White Americans. The social psychology of intergroup relations suggests some solutions to health care disparities due to racial bias. Three paths can lead from racial bias to poorer health among Black Americans. First is the already well-documented physical and psychological toll of being a target of persistent discrimination. Second, implicit bias can affect physicians’ perceptions and decisions, creating racial disparities in medical treatments, although evidence is mixed. The third path describes a less direct route: Physicians’ implicit racial bias negatively affects communication and the patient–provider relationship, resulting in racial disparities in the outcomes of medical interactions. Strong evidence shows that physician implicit bias negatively affects Black patients’ reactions to medical interactions, and there is good circumstantial evidence that these reactions affect health outcomes of the interactions. Solutions focused on the physician, the patient, and the health care delivery system; all agree that trying to ignore patients’ race or to change physicians’ implicit racial attitudes will not be effective and may actually be counterproductive. Instead, solutions can minimize the impact of racial bias on medical decisions and on patient–provider relationships.

[Ostroeuropa]

So what do the symptoms of venous thromboembolism have to do with how different ethnic groups are treated by doctors and its effects on trust among said ethnic groups? Which was the original point being made going right back to the Guardian article.

Or are you just moving the goalposts to keep your argument afloat?

I mean you moved the goalposts here. Your pregnancy mortality example for proving current health discrimination was an erroneous one.

As for your new link;
"Circumstantial evidence this effects health outcomes.".

You mean like "Well, it turns out black people die more in childbirth. This could be down to racism. (if we ignore all the evidence that it isn't)."

As to "trust", you need to explain why older black people are more likely to take the vaccine than younger ones in that case. It seems to me that it isn't correlated with negative experience with the healthcare system, just the opposite. Those who have spent longer on this earth and have had more interactions with doctors appear more trusting of the vaccine.

Somewhat undermines your explanation, and again supports mine that it is down to social media spaces and the toxic mindsets they are cultivating.

[Vassenor]

So what do the symptoms of venous thromboembolism have to do with how different ethnic groups are treated by doctors and its effects on trust among said ethnic groups? Which was the original point being made going right back to the Guardian article.

Or are you just moving the goalposts to keep your argument afloat?

I mean you moved the goalposts here. Your pregnancy mortality example for proving current health discrimination was an erroneous one.

As for your new link;
"Circumstantial evidence this effects health outcomes.".

You mean like "Well, it turns out black people die more in childbirth. This could be down to racism. (if we ignore all the evidence that it isn't)."

As to "trust", you need to explain why older black people are more likely to take the vaccine than younger ones in that case. It seems to me that it isn't correlated with negative experience with the healthcare system, just the opposite. Those who have spent longer on this earth and have had more interactions with doctors appear more trusting of the vaccine.

Somewhat undermines your explanation, and again supports mine that it is down to social media spaces and the toxic mindsets they are cultivating.

So you're just claiming victory because you're desperate to prove you're the oppressed one here. I'm wondering if you actually read the article or just based your assumptions on the abstract.

Consider the following examples: An analysis of more than one million clinical visits for children with symptoms of respiratory infections found that Black children were significantly less likely than White children to receive antibiotics, even after eliminating relevant medical and socioeconomic variables (Gerber et al., 2013). Another national study revealed that Black children who lose a finger are half as likely as White children to have the finger reattached (Squitieri, Reichert, Kim, Steggerda, & Chung, 2011). A review of almost 800,000 hospital discharge records found that Blacks with peripheral arterial disease were 77% more likely than Whites to have the affected limb amputated (Durrazzo, Frencher, & Gusberg, 2013); this disparity was greatest in the best-resourced medical facilities. Black women receiving chemotherapy for breast cancer were significantly more likely than White women to receive nonstandard treatment regimens (Griggs et al., 2007). These disparities cannot be explained by differences in the specific disease characteristics, patients’ insurance, or SES. Racial bias among physicians could contribute to these disparities (Penner, Hagiwara, et al., 2013).

[...]

Evidence implicates racial bias as a contributor to health disparities between Whites and Blacks, either directly through stress-related processes or indirectly through quality of treatment decisions and quality of clinical communication (see Figure 1). Most physicians are consciously committed to eliminate racial disparities in health care, but they are not immune to the cultural and social forces that lead many Americans to implicit, often unconscious, racial biases. Although researchers still do not fully understand the role of such biases in health disparities, all the observed effects are uniformly in the direction of greater racial bias leading to lower quality care for Black patients. These documented biases demand the attention of health care administrators and providers who are committed to providing high quality care for all patients.

Understanding when, where, and how physician implicit bias contributes to disparities in health care and outcomes is a significant challenge for health care researchers. Many factors besides implicit bias affect treatment decisions and medical outcomes. These include a patient’s medical history and specific presenting problem, the quality of treatment facilities, the available treatment options, and what treatments are covered by the patient’s insurance. Ultimately, any racial bias must be placed in the context of these other factors. What’s more, the path(s) from implicit bias to health care and health status must be better specified. However, it is not reasonable to deny the role of racial bias in health care disparities simply because it is complex. Understanding bias in health care can guide interventions for reducing racial disparities and improve health outcomes.

[Ostroeuropa]

I mean you moved the goalposts here. Your pregnancy mortality example for proving current health discrimination was an erroneous one.

As for your new link;
"Circumstantial evidence this effects health outcomes.".

You mean like "Well, it turns out black people die more in childbirth. This could be down to racism. (if we ignore all the evidence that it isn't)."

As to "trust", you need to explain why older black people are more likely to take the vaccine than younger ones in that case. It seems to me that it isn't correlated with negative experience with the healthcare system, just the opposite. Those who have spent longer on this earth and have had more interactions with doctors appear more trusting of the vaccine.

Somewhat undermines your explanation, and again supports mine that it is down to social media spaces and the toxic mindsets they are cultivating.

So you're just claiming victory because you're desperate to prove you're the oppressed one here. I'm wondering if you actually read the article or just based your assumptions on the abstract.

And none of what you posted addresses my point Vass. I have not denied that racism exists. I disputed one example you offered, and noted that racism is not a plausible explanation for the anti-vaccination mentality that has swept the black community given the disparities in who is anti-vax and who isn't.

Try explaining this:

As to "trust", you need to explain why older black people are more likely to take the vaccine than younger ones in that case. It seems to me that it isn't correlated with negative experience with the healthcare system, just the opposite. Those who have spent longer on this earth and have had more interactions with doctors appear more trusting of the vaccine.

Somewhat undermines your explanation, and again supports mine that it is down to social media spaces and the toxic mindsets they are cultivating.

[Agarntrop]

Oh, the monthly Ostro vs. Vass/Celrit/ABH shouting match is on.

I think I'll just watch this time.

[Vassenor]

black people prolonging a global plague

Oh wait I see the angle here. Looking for people to blame to take the heat for why we've been stuck like this for so long off all the entitled middle classers who decided that the pandemic restrictions were an infringement on their personal liberties.