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UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Are you happy with the provisions of the trade deal with the EU?

Completely
12
7%
Somewhat
37
22%
Indifferent
38
23%
Not really
33
20%
Absolutely not
45
27%
 
Total votes : 165

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Nuroblav
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Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm not a fan of HoL, but this shouldn't come as a surprise ;)
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Celritannia
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Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:41 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
We might also want an electoral reform of the House of Lords. Make it a more democratic institution.

:blush:


It should be a form of popular government of a different flavour and base to that of the Commons, otherwise there is simply no point to it. Throw out all the political appointees, and allow unions, professional organisations, and academics to elect representatives from among their number so that it can return to its former status as a learned house of review with full veto powers restored.


^^^This.

The House of Peers, as someone suggested in the other thread as a renaming, for Peer Review, which I think is quite clever.

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Auristania
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:19 pm

House of Lords reform:

#1 Proportional Representation is more democratic than First past the Post.

#2 Nations with PR parliaments can rarely form a working majority.

#3 House of Commons continues as FpP and decides Budget etc

#4 House of Lords is elected by PR and decides Constitution and such like BIG stuff.

# 5 Drive on the Left or Right? Imperial or Metric Measures? Budget? These issues, the important thing is that a decision be made and is Commons business. Many issues, the important thing is the right decision, these will be decided by the PR Assembly.

POLL
I want Brexit to happen, BUT the question is what I expect to happen. The Establishment will use Corona-gate as their next excuse to cancel Brexit.
Last edited by Auristania on Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Celritannia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:25 pm

Auristania wrote:House of Lords reform:

#1 Proportional Representation is more democratic than First past the Post.

#2 Nations with PR parliaments can rarely form a working majority.

#3 House of Commons continues as FpP and decides Budget etc

#4 House of Lords is elected by PR and decides Constitution and such like BIG stuff.

# 5 Drive on the Left or Right? Imperial or Metric Measures? Budget? These issues, the important thing is that a decision be made and is Commons business. Many issues, the important thing is the right decision, these will be decided by the PR Assembly.


A second elected chamber will only see 2 houses at odds with each other.

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The Free Joy State
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:40 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:imagine if you were a time traveler from the 2000s that got punted forward to 2020 lol

I think you'd just end up hugging your knees cowering in the corner because of the tidal wave of shit you'd need to grasp at once: 9/11, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, terror attacks, memes, social media, smartphones, climate change, Brexit, Trump, Coronavirus, social distancing, everyone wearing masks, the recession, the deaths of various celebrities...

Worse... If writers of utopian literature got thrown into 2020: they wouldn't even be able to curl up to hug their knees; they'd just go catatonic. They'd never write again.

Fartsniffage wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Starmer is a placeholder politician. Wherever he enters, excitement leaves. So inconducive to buzz that his presence causes any nearby bees to spontaneously drop from the sky stone dead. The sort of fellow who would be a pointless answer on a BBC dinnertime quiz show even while currently serving in the position.

Truly tragic that this is the best option on the table.


Given what exciting politicians seem to be doing to the world I'd be quite happy with Keir for a bit.

"Exciting" politicians -- all rhetoric and no substance -- are vastly over-represented and over-sold in politics, I find.

Stable (actually stable, not "strong and stable") and sensible is the kind of politician we need right now.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with a cabinet who can never seem to answer a straight-forward question in interviews, but instead prattles endlessly with the set talking points they were clearly given, and which makes so many U-turns even their own backbenchers have lost confidence in them.

After this lot, I would welcome stable and unexciting.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:40 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I think you'd just end up hugging your knees cowering in the corner because of the tidal wave of shit you'd need to grasp at once: 9/11, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, terror attacks, memes, social media, smartphones, climate change, Brexit, Trump, Coronavirus, social distancing, everyone wearing masks, the recession, the deaths of various celebrities...

Worse... If writers of utopian literature got thrown into 2020: they wouldn't even be able to curl up to hug their knees; they'd just go catatonic. They'd never write again.

Fartsniffage wrote:
Given what exciting politicians seem to be doing to the world I'd be quite happy with Keir for a bit.

"Exciting" politicians -- all rhetoric and no substance -- are vastly over-represented and over-sold in politics, I find.

Stable (actually stable, not "strong and stable") and sensible is the kind of politician we need right now.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with a cabinet who can never seem to answer a straight-forward question in interviews, but instead prattles endlessly with the set talking points they were clearly given, and which makes so many U-turns even their own backbenchers have lost confidence in them.

After this lot, I would welcome stable and unexciting.

How about dependable and exciting?
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:28 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:imagine if you were a time traveler from the 2000s that got punted forward to 2020 lol
The New California Republic wrote:I think you'd just end up hugging your knees cowering in the corner because of the tidal wave of shit you'd need to grasp at once: 9/11, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, terror attacks, memes, social media, smartphones, climate change, Brexit, Trump, Coronavirus, social distancing, everyone wearing masks, the recession, the deaths of various celebrities...

Worse... If writers of utopian literature got thrown into 2020: they wouldn't even be able to curl up to hug their knees; they'd just go catatonic. They'd never write again.

It'd be the same if the likes of Disraeli, Churchill, or Attlee were transported to our time: our current lived existence would blow their minds and likely result in severe mental trauma. To prevent that they'd need to be kept isolated in a neutrally decorated and furnished facility as soon as they were transported to our time, and over the course of months be gradually drip-fed the truths of our time, to prevent the time traveller equivalent of "the bends".
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:03 am

Various newspapers with front pages warning Rishi Sunak against tax rises, for second home owners and companies, to pay for the pandemic measures. Has to be better than hitting pensions up for the money, there are more than enough problems for the future with pensions already. Though the 'senior Tories' warning against any of these measures, need to get their heads out of their arses, where else is the money going to come from?
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The Nihilistic view
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Founded: May 14, 2013
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:10 am

Celritannia wrote:
Dryicor wrote:
Fat chance. Labour are currently in a real mess. Starmer is much better than Corbyn in uniting Labour but the Corbynites in the party aren't rallying around him. They wanted Long-Bailey. That's not who they got.

As for the Tories, people are very satisfied with how they've done on Brexit and the coronavirus in their strongholds and in the Labour areas which went Tory in December.

So it's probably an outlier.




As for the poll, I'd like to think not. The UK has now got a chance to improve itself outside of the EU, and if we ever rejoin then the Maastricht Treaty will dictate we have to adopt the Euro. I, and the whole of Britain, would be extremely sceptical of that.



Haha, oh dear.
I don't think you realise just how much of a mess the Tories have made over COVID, Brexit, and the whole exam fiasco.

As for "The UK has now got a chance to improve itself outside of the EU", that's absolute BS.
The UK had a perfect deal with the EU, and we were able to improve ourselves in the EU.


Only perfect deal is a no deal ...... wot? :blink:
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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:36 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Various newspapers with front pages warning Rishi Sunak against tax rises, for second home owners and companies, to pay for the pandemic measures. Has to be better than hitting pensions up for the money, there are more than enough problems for the future with pensions already. Though the 'senior Tories' warning against any of these measures, need to get their heads out of their arses, where else is the money going to come from?


No pensions is better. The current limit is only reached by mega rich bastards who take pension to dodge income tax. Second homes/buy to let there are a lot more inderviduals who have nothing close to that level of pension in property and with capital gains the threshold is far lower than the current pension limit.

If you max out your lifetime pension limit you are almost certainly a multi-millionaire.
The Trinity. Churchill, Johnson and Thatcher.

Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Bangladesh, Cook Islands, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Egypt, France, Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana , India, Israel, Iraq, Ireland, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lesotho, Malawi, Malaysia, Singapore, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Niue, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, United States, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe are UNITED KINGDOM!!!
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Salandriagado
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Posts: 22563
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:51 am

Kowani wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Worse... If writers of utopian literature got thrown into 2020: they wouldn't even be able to curl up to hug their knees; they'd just go catatonic. They'd never write again.


"Exciting" politicians -- all rhetoric and no substance -- are vastly over-represented and over-sold in politics, I find.

Stable (actually stable, not "strong and stable") and sensible is the kind of politician we need right now.

Unfortunately, we're stuck with a cabinet who can never seem to answer a straight-forward question in interviews, but instead prattles endlessly with the set talking points they were clearly given, and which makes so many U-turns even their own backbenchers have lost confidence in them.

After this lot, I would welcome stable and unexciting.

How about dependable and exciting?


I'm not sure that's a thing that exists.
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Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

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Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Celritannia
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Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:25 am

The Nihilistic view wrote:
Celritannia wrote:

Haha, oh dear.
I don't think you realise just how much of a mess the Tories have made over COVID, Brexit, and the whole exam fiasco.

As for "The UK has now got a chance to improve itself outside of the EU", that's absolute BS.
The UK had a perfect deal with the EU, and we were able to improve ourselves in the EU.


Only perfect deal is a no deal ...... wot? :blink:


The best del the UK had was being part of the EU.

But a no deal will be disastrous, and its the Tory government at fault.

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Agarntrop
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:40 pm

Celritannia wrote:
The Nihilistic view wrote:
Only perfect deal is a no deal ...... wot? :blink:


The best deal the UK had was being part of the EU.

It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.
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Celritannia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:35 pm

Agarntrop wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
The best deal the UK had was being part of the EU.

It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.


Yeah, somehow the food shortages, the problems with the Irish border, the lack of subsidies for farmers etc are not going to "get over it" so easily.

I mean, if you could point out anything good from leaving the EU, I could get over it, but the problems are all too clear to see from leaving the EU.
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:27 am

Reform of the House of Lords isn't a priority to me. I may not like the privileged or the Lords Spiritual, but it doesn't do a bad job at moderating the House of Commons. I also wouldn't trust the current government to reform it without stacking it even more in their own favour.
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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:29 am

Celritannia wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
It should be a form of popular government of a different flavour and base to that of the Commons, otherwise there is simply no point to it. Throw out all the political appointees, and allow unions, professional organisations, and academics to elect representatives from among their number so that it can return to its former status as a learned house of review with full veto powers restored.


^^^This.

The House of Peers, as someone suggested in the other thread as a renaming, for Peer Review, which I think is quite clever.


I'd rather we change MP titles to lordships, make them the house of (elected) lords, and then use the commons as a demarchic house with the final say and the ability to approve or reject legislation.

Grab random citizens for each one, and allow them to attend remotely.
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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:42 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
The best deal the UK had was being part of the EU.

It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.


Why do you hate free speech and discussion?
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:51 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Reform of the House of Lords isn't a priority to me. I may not like the privileged or the Lords Spiritual, but it doesn't do a bad job at moderating the House of Commons. I also wouldn't trust the current government to reform it without stacking it even more in their own favour.

While it's an interesting discussion, I can't say that it's a particular issue to me at the moment. There's far more shit going on rn that is more important.
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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:40 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
The best deal the UK had was being part of the EU.

It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.


lmao it's true though. no amount of getting behind brexit will ever change that or somehow cause a better deal to materialize.
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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:54 am

this is your daily reminder that the reason brexit was such a mess and why the UK might not exist by 2030 is because literally the only thing that parties in westminster can do when confronted with opposition is go "well we're gonna do it anyway haha deal with it" and the inability to do this within its own government due to minority government/divided parliament and the inability to do it to other governments because you don't control them outright broke british politics for years
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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:58 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
The best deal the UK had was being part of the EU.

It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.


Bad decisions don't get less bad over time.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:44 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:It has been 4 years and 3 months. Get over it.


Bad decisions don't get less bad over time.


Yes but people think that shouting down any suggestion that it was a bad idea will make the negative consequences disappear.
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Vassenor
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:11 am

Also according to the Telegraph, it looks like the Director General has decided to axe the BBC's comedy content for being "too left-wing" and apparently being biased against the government, Trump and Brexit.

Sounds pretty snowflake-y to me, if true. Mostly because all I've seen is a photograph of the abstract in the paper, and the full article is behind the paywall.
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Hirota
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:56 am

Vassenor wrote:Also according to the Telegraph, it looks like the Director General has decided to axe the BBC's comedy content for being "too left-wing" and apparently being biased against the government, Trump and Brexit.

Sounds pretty snowflake-y to me, if true. Mostly because all I've seen is a photograph of the abstract in the paper, and the full article is behind the paywall.


Check out my mad internet skills yo. Anyhoo, if the BBC wants to keep it's licence fee, it needs to be more representative - people have to feel it's worth watching. If that means curbing some of the worse excesses - like Jo Brand advocating throwing acid even in jest - then that's not a terrible thing.
Last edited by Hirota on Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:12 am

Hirota wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Also according to the Telegraph, it looks like the Director General has decided to axe the BBC's comedy content for being "too left-wing" and apparently being biased against the government, Trump and Brexit.

Sounds pretty snowflake-y to me, if true. Mostly because all I've seen is a photograph of the abstract in the paper, and the full article is behind the paywall.


Check out my mad internet skills yo. Anyhoo, if the BBC wants to keep it's licence fee, it needs to be more representative - people have to feel it's worth watching. If that means curbing some of the worse excesses - like Jo Brand advocating throwing acid even in jest - then that's not a terrible thing.


I'm trying to think of a funny Tory comedian and coming up blank.
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