UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

[Celritannia]

Because the report does not say the education system is racist against white working class children, and to make a thin argument to say it is, is illogical at best.

It demonstrates that white working class children face the worst outcomes from education. That is a racist outcome. It would remain racist even if it were due to poor financing of white schools relative to minority ones. Your defence amounts to "It's not racism, it's just racism.", and to be clear, I don't agree your excuse is any good. Status deficit is a vital component of the problem.

there is no study showing that the totality of the education crisis is caused by what you say it is. You have simply made it up based on your predisposition to disbelieving white racism is possible and are prepared to wander off to imaginationland rather than actually engage with the facts as we currently understand them. You could conduct such a study if you have a 'Reckon' about it, but your 'reckons' are not a good basis for public policy or understanding of politics.

Yes, there is a problem with working class boys underachieving, but to say it is due to racism? Highly unlikely.
So because I am not saying there is a wide-spread white-racist rhetoric in the UK education system, I am a racist against whites? Wow...

If there is no evidence, then there is no evidence. It's quite simple.
I am not imagining there is an anti-white racist conspiracy in the education system.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

The iconic James Bond, Sean Connery, has died. There is a remembrance thread here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=493694

Didn't he give the SNP about £5000 a month?

[Celritannia]

Ehhh...

That's not technically true, depending where and when a specific show is set.

I never disagreed there was no anti-white racist examples, I am denying it's widespread.

And to say the Education system of the UK (or England and Wales) is racist is laughable.

Why is it laughable? Your entire argument amounts to arguing that the entirety of the phenomena can be explained by the fact that white schools are underfunded relative to minority ones, so it's not racism.

Like.

Dude.

Have you even seen how racism works in the US?

Well, we don't live in a country where we have segregated schools, so we cannot say "white schools do better than ethnic schools".

A show that is set in a metropolitan area will have more ethnic actors. A show that is set in a rural or small town area (or certain historical settings) will have next to no ethnic actors.

Yes, but we are not the US.

[Ostroeuropa]

It demonstrates that white working class children face the worst outcomes from education. That is a racist outcome. It would remain racist even if it were due to poor financing of white schools relative to minority ones. Your defence amounts to "It's not racism, it's just racism.", and to be clear, I don't agree your excuse is any good. Status deficit is a vital component of the problem.

there is no study showing that the totality of the education crisis is caused by what you say it is. You have simply made it up based on your predisposition to disbelieving white racism is possible and are prepared to wander off to imaginationland rather than actually engage with the facts as we currently understand them. You could conduct such a study if you have a 'Reckon' about it, but your 'reckons' are not a good basis for public policy or understanding of politics.

Yes, there is a problem with working class boys underachieving, but to say it is due to racism? Highly unlikely.
So because I am not saying there is not an wide-spread white-racist rhetoric in the UK education system, I am a racist against whites? Wow...

If there is no evidence, then there is no evidence. It's quite simple.
I am not imagining there is an anti-white racist conspiracy in the education system.

A society that produces outcomes where your chances of success depend on your demographic is racist. A society where being born white and working class means you have less chance of success means that society is racist against white people in an intersectional way. The results themselves are all the evidence that is required. What is then relevant is finding which aspects are causing the racist outcome.

Which part of that do you have trouble with?

As I am trying to explain to you, when you say "it's not racism doing it, it's this dynamic", you *think* you are making an argument that anti-white racism doesn't exist, because you have a poor grasp of what racism means. What you are actually doing is saying;

"Status deficit is not the anti-white racism. The funding allocation of the education system is the anti-white racism, but i'm not going to call it that.".

The only way you could argue there is no anti-white racism in society is if you outright denied the results were true, but you don't.

When you try and find reasons for the outcome, you are trying to find anti-white racism, but you refuse to acknowledge that is what you are doing.

[Auristania]

Jeremy Corbyn suspended from Labour Party over response to antisemitism report



Jeremy Corbyn's ignominious demise is now complete and Starmer's purge of the cringe, ultra-woke, intolerant, radical Left continues. Flush them all out. Every single one of them. Restore sense and sensibility to left-wing politics once again.

You do realise people liked his policies even if they didn't like him, right?

I liked him when his policy was Socialism, but as he made more and more anti-Semitic policies, I realized his policy is National Socialism = Godwin's Law.

[Celritannia]

Yes, there is a problem with working class boys underachieving, but to say it is due to racism? Highly unlikely.
So because I am not saying there is not an wide-spread white-racist rhetoric in the UK education system, I am a racist against whites? Wow...

If there is no evidence, then there is no evidence. It's quite simple.
I am not imagining there is an anti-white racist conspiracy in the education system.

A society that produces outcomes where your chances of success depend on your demographic is racist. A society where being born white and working class means you have less chance of success means that society is racist against white people in an intersectional way. The results themselves are all the evidence that is required. What is then relevant is finding which aspects are causing the racist outcome.

Which part of that do you have trouble with?

As I am trying to explain to you, when you say "it's not racism doing it, it's this dynamic", you *think* you are making an argument that anti-white racism doesn't exist, because you have a poor grasp of what racism means. What you are actually doing is saying;

"Status deficit is not the anti-white racism. The funding allocation of the education system is the anti-white racism, but i'm not going to call it that.".

It's not based on demographic though. More white students still attain better results in exams and attend university than ethnic students.
That's not true at all.
None of this shows it is racist. It shows the failures of a glorified memory test.

What educational funding do ethic students get that white ones don't?
And are you arguing it's all white students or just working class ones?

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I'm not a fan of Corbyn but I think I can safely say that he never instituted a national socialist policy...

[The New California Republic]

The iconic James Bond, Sean Connery, has died. There is a remembrance thread here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=493694

Didn't he give the SNP about £5000 a month?

Not going to hold that against him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[The Huskar Social Union]

You do realise people liked his policies even if they didn't like him, right?

I liked him when his policy was Socialism, but as he made more and more anti-Semitic policies, I realized his policy is National Socialism = Godwin's Law.

Not even remotely close. Like not even in the same solar system.

[Ostroeuropa]

A society that produces outcomes where your chances of success depend on your demographic is racist. A society where being born white and working class means you have less chance of success means that society is racist against white people in an intersectional way. The results themselves are all the evidence that is required. What is then relevant is finding which aspects are causing the racist outcome.

Which part of that do you have trouble with?

As I am trying to explain to you, when you say "it's not racism doing it, it's this dynamic", you *think* you are making an argument that anti-white racism doesn't exist, because you have a poor grasp of what racism means. What you are actually doing is saying;

"Status deficit is not the anti-white racism. The funding allocation of the education system is the anti-white racism, but i'm not going to call it that.".

It's not based on demographic though. More white students still attain better results in exams and attend university than ethnic students.

And here we see your fundamental refusal to apply intersectionality where it might reveal anti-white racism in society. Race is a relevant factor and impacts the outcome of working class students, being white and working class impacts them negatively *for being white and working class*, not simply for being working class.

That's not true at all.
None of this shows it is racist. It sows the failures of a glorified memory test.

Ofcourse it's true. Again, which part are you arguing is not true? Be specific.

What educational funding do ethic students get that white ones don't?

I'm not arguing it's a funding issue, that was your argument. Your explanation for why white students do worse was funding cuts, because you for some reason think that means it wouldn't be racist.

(Attwater)

'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger". By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger". So, any way you look at it, race is coming on the back-burner

This, plus "Racism does not require intent" is the thrust of my argument for why your explanations are unsatisfactory. The mere fact that working class white students face worse outcomes is *all the evidence that is required to demonstrate society is racist against white people in intersectional terms.*, and the only debate left is where the anti-white racism is, what is causing it, and so on.

And are you arguing it's all white students or just working class ones?

Working class white students. This is basic intersectionality here.

[Celritannia]

It's not based on demographic though. More white students still attain better results in exams and attend university than ethnic students.

And here we see your fundamental refusal to apply intersectionality where it might reveal anti-white racism in society. Race is a relevant factor and impacts the outcome of working class students, being white and working class impacts them negatively *for being white and working class*, not simply for being working class.

That's not true at all.
None of this shows it is racist. It sows the failures of a glorified memory test.

Ofcourse it's true. Again, which part are you arguing is not true? Be specific.

What educational funding do ethic students get that white ones don't?

I'm not arguing it's a funding issue, that was your argument. Your explanation for why white students do worse was funding cuts, because you for some reason think that means it wouldn't be racist.

(Attwater)

'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger". By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this", is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger". So, any way you look at it, race is coming on the back-burner

This, plus "Racism does not require intent" is the thrust of my argument for why your explanations are unsatisfactory. The mere fact that working class white students face worse outcomes is *all the evidence that is required to demonstrate society is racist against white people in intersectional terms.*, and the only debate left is where the anti-white racism is, what is causing it, and so on.

And are you arguing it's all white students or just working class ones?

Working class white students. This is basic intersectionality here.

1. Again, what evidence is there instead of the same circular rhetoric? Is the education system personally ensuring white working class students fail on purpose?

2. The fact that the education system is racist against white working class students. The UK has had a long history of Tory government pissing on white working class students.

3. And you have not proven why the Education system is racist. Of course it's a funding issues.

4. I'm done. You keep believing in an imagined conspiracy theory for all I care.

[Ostroeuropa]

And here we see your fundamental refusal to apply intersectionality where it might reveal anti-white racism in society. Race is a relevant factor and impacts the outcome of working class students, being white and working class impacts them negatively *for being white and working class*, not simply for being working class.



Ofcourse it's true. Again, which part are you arguing is not true? Be specific.



I'm not arguing it's a funding issue, that was your argument. Your explanation for why white students do worse was funding cuts, because you for some reason think that means it wouldn't be racist.

(Attwater)


This, plus "Racism does not require intent" is the thrust of my argument for why your explanations are unsatisfactory. The mere fact that working class white students face worse outcomes is *all the evidence that is required to demonstrate society is racist against white people in intersectional terms.*, and the only debate left is where the anti-white racism is, what is causing it, and so on.


Working class white students. This is basic intersectionality here.

1. Again, what evidence is there instead of the same circular rhetoric? Is the education system personally ensuring white working class students fail on purpose?

2. The fact that the education system is racist against white working class students. The UK has had a long history of Tory government pissing on white working class students.

3. And you have not proven why the Education system is racist. Of course it's a funding issues.

4. I'm done. You keep believing in an imagined conspiracy theory for all I care.

Racism does not require intent. This seems to be the fundamental flaw in your understanding of this issue given your replies here.

[Celritannia]

1. Again, what evidence is there instead of the same circular rhetoric? Is the education system personally ensuring white working class students fail on purpose?

2. The fact that the education system is racist against white working class students. The UK has had a long history of Tory government pissing on white working class students.

3. And you have not proven why the Education system is racist. Of course it's a funding issues.

4. I'm done. You keep believing in an imagined conspiracy theory for all I care.

Racism does not require intent. This seems to be the fundamental flaw in your understanding of this issue given your replies here.

And the Educational system is not doing such a thing.

[Ostroeuropa]

Racism does not require intent. This seems to be the fundamental flaw in your understanding of this issue given your replies here.

And the Educational system is not doing such a thing.

I have not limited my argument to saying the education system in itself is causing this outcome, and though I would suggest it does in various ways, that isn't necessary to argue anti-white racism exists. We are discussing society as a whole and using the education system to measure the disparity.

This is similar to you saying "The prisons aren't being racist to black people.".

Maybe not. But you're missing the point. We can use the prison population being disproportionately black to demonstrate *anti-black racism exists in society*, potentially the prison system, but also potentially somewhere else that is producing these outcomes, such as in the police force, or the economy.

As I said, the results themselves are *all that is required to prove the existence of anti-white racism impacting the majority of white people in the country and their wellbeing*. This is something you can deny and ignore, but it is not something you can realistically debate without simply ignoring reality. What *can* be debated, is where that anti-white racism is, and what needs to be done to fix it.

Again, which aspect of this argument specifically are you having trouble with. Because as i've pointed out to you, you seem to be saying "Society isn't racist against white people, it's just racist against white people, but i'm not going to call it racism.", but not understanding that is what you are saying.

Status deficit remains a salient explanation for the problem precisely because white people are advantaged in other ways. It can't be police brutality doing it. It can't be economic wellbeing, because we accounted for class, and so on. The explanations that remain are that the education system is either funded in anti-white racist ways, or that society is prejudiced against white people and this status deficit impacts their performance.

[Vassenor]

You do realise people liked his policies even if they didn't like him, right?

I liked him when his policy was Socialism, but as he made more and more anti-Semitic policies, I realized his policy is National Socialism = Godwin's Law.

Can you give us examples of specific policy positions that turned you off?

[Celritannia]

And the Educational system is not doing such a thing.

I have not limited my argument to saying the education system in itself is causing this outcome, and though I would suggest it does in various ways, that isn't necessary to argue anti-white racism exists. We are discussing society as a whole and using the education system to measure the disparity.

This is similar to you saying "The prisons aren't being racist to black people.".

Maybe not. But you're missing the point. We can use the prison population being disproportionately black to demonstrate *anti-black racism exists in society*, potentially the prison system, but also potentially somewhere else that is producing these outcomes.

As I said, the results themselves are *all that is required to prove the existence of anti-white racism impacting the majority of white people in the country and their wellbeing*. This is something you can deny and ignore, but it is not something you can realistically debate without simply ignoring reality. What *can* be debated, is where that anti-white racism is, and what needs to be done to fix it.

Again, which aspect of this argument specifically are you having trouble with.

25% of UK prisoners are ethnic individuals.

The white-racism is practically a niche. It isn't wide-spread, that's what I am denying.

[Ostroeuropa]

I have not limited my argument to saying the education system in itself is causing this outcome, and though I would suggest it does in various ways, that isn't necessary to argue anti-white racism exists. We are discussing society as a whole and using the education system to measure the disparity.

This is similar to you saying "The prisons aren't being racist to black people.".

Maybe not. But you're missing the point. We can use the prison population being disproportionately black to demonstrate *anti-black racism exists in society*, potentially the prison system, but also potentially somewhere else that is producing these outcomes.

As I said, the results themselves are *all that is required to prove the existence of anti-white racism impacting the majority of white people in the country and their wellbeing*. This is something you can deny and ignore, but it is not something you can realistically debate without simply ignoring reality. What *can* be debated, is where that anti-white racism is, and what needs to be done to fix it.

Again, which aspect of this argument specifically are you having trouble with.

25% of UK prisons have ethnic individuals in them.

The white-racism is practically a niche, it isn't wide-spread.

... Right... they do. And that's a good example of racism. You don't need the prison system to be racist to black people, nor to argue they are, to demonstrate that such an outcome is *in and of itself* evidence of racism against black people in our society.

The report on the outcomes for white working classes in the education system disagrees with you, it would appear to be systemic and impact millions of white people, considerably more individuals than the entirety of the prison population in the UK. You're downplaying it considerably here because you are invested in a hate movement that is invested in downplaying it dude.

[Celritannia]

25% of UK prisons have ethnic individuals in them.

The white-racism is practically a niche, it isn't wide-spread.

... Right... they do. And that's a good example of racism. You don't need the prison system to be racist to black people, nor to argue they are, to demonstrate that such an outcome is *in and of itself* evidence of racism against black people in our society.

The report on the outcomes for white working classes in the education system disagrees with you, it would appear to be systemic and impact millions of white people, considerably more individuals than the entirety of the prison population in the UK. You're downplaying it considerably here because you are invested in a hate movement that is invested in downplaying it dude.

Oh ffs.
The UK education system is no racist against white working class students.
Classist? Most likely. But not racist.

Why do you insist on putting words into my mouth, or caractorising me, simply because I disagree with you?

[Ostroeuropa]

... Right... they do. And that's a good example of racism. You don't need the prison system to be racist to black people, nor to argue they are, to demonstrate that such an outcome is *in and of itself* evidence of racism against black people in our society.

The report on the outcomes for white working classes in the education system disagrees with you, it would appear to be systemic and impact millions of white people, considerably more individuals than the entirety of the prison population in the UK. You're downplaying it considerably here because you are invested in a hate movement that is invested in downplaying it dude.

Oh ffs.
The UK education system is no racist against white working class students.
Classist? Most likely. But not racist.

Each time you fail to grasp a point and it comes up again i'm just going to quote myself from now on.

I have not limited my argument to saying the education system in itself is causing this outcome, and though I would suggest it does in various ways, that isn't necessary to argue anti-white racism exists. We are discussing society as a whole and using the education system to measure the disparity.

This is similar to you saying "The prisons aren't being racist to black people.".

Maybe not. But you're missing the point. We can use the prison population being disproportionately black to demonstrate *anti-black racism exists in society*, potentially the prison system, but also potentially somewhere else that is producing these outcomes.

As I said, the results themselves are *all that is required to prove the existence of anti-white racism impacting the majority of white people in the country and their wellbeing*. This is something you can deny and ignore, but it is not something you can realistically debate without simply ignoring reality. What *can* be debated, is where that anti-white racism is, and what needs to be done to fix it.

Again, which aspect of this argument specifically are you having trouble with.

[Celritannia]

Oh ffs.
The UK education system is no racist against white working class students.
Classist? Most likely. But not racist.

Each time you fail to grasp a point and it comes up again i'm just going to quote myself from now on.

I have not limited my argument to saying the education system in itself is causing this outcome, and though I would suggest it does in various ways, that isn't necessary to argue anti-white racism exists. We are discussing society as a whole and using the education system to measure the disparity.

This is similar to you saying "The prisons aren't being racist to black people.".

Maybe not. But you're missing the point. We can use the prison population being disproportionately black to demonstrate *anti-black racism exists in society*, potentially the prison system, but also potentially somewhere else that is producing these outcomes.

As I said, the results themselves are *all that is required to prove the existence of anti-white racism impacting the majority of white people in the country and their wellbeing*. This is something you can deny and ignore, but it is not something you can realistically debate without simply ignoring reality. What *can* be debated, is where that anti-white racism is, and what needs to be done to fix it.

Again, which aspect of this argument specifically are you having trouble with.

Again, provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE, and then we will continue this.
Until then, I am ceasing all responses.

[Ostroeuropa]

Each time you fail to grasp a point and it comes up again i'm just going to quote myself from now on.

Again, provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE, and then we will continue this.
Until then, I am ceasing all responses.

We both agree the evidence exists, namely that white working class people face worse outcomes in the education system. I also linked evidence for it on previous pages, which started this discussion.

[Celritannia]

Again, provide ACTUAL EVIDENCE, and then we will continue this.
Until then, I am ceasing all responses.

We both agree the evidence exists, namely that white working class people face worse outcomes in the education system. I also linked evidence for it on previous pages, which started this discussion.

But there is no evidence to suggest it is the fault of racism, that's the point.

[Ostroeuropa]

We both agree the evidence exists, namely that white working class people face worse outcomes in the education system. I also linked evidence for it on previous pages, which started this discussion.

But there is no evidence it is the fault of racism, that's the point.

I have explained to you quite patiently how it is in itself both racism and evidence of racism and that the discussion should entail which aspects of our society is the anti-white racism causing the outcome.

It is akin to finding a body with multiple stab wounds, signs of forced entry, and big letters in blood scrawled "I have been murdered" on the wall, and you're taking the position there's no evidence of a murder simply because only police officers with alibis are in the room and you can't see a murderer, so they must not exist.

I on the other hand, am being sensible about it and saying "We may not know exactly who the murderer is, but we know there is one and we should probably start discussing how to find them and remove them from society rather than entertaining the wild notions of police officers with object permanence issues.".

[Celritannia]

But there is no evidence it is the fault of racism, that's the point.

I have explained to you quite patiently how it is in itself racism and that the discussion should entail which aspects of our society is the anti-white racism causing the outcome.

It is akin to finding a body with multiple stab wounds, signs of forced entry, and big letters in blood scrawled "I have been murdered" on the wall, and you're taking the position there's no evidence of a murder simply because only police officers with alibis are in the room and you can't see a murderer, so they must not exist.

Progressive Object Permanence issues.

Sigh...

[Vassenor]

But there is no evidence it is the fault of racism, that's the point.

I have explained to you quite patiently how it is in itself racism and that the discussion should entail which aspects of our society is the anti-white racism causing the outcome.

It is akin to finding a body with multiple stab wounds, signs of forced entry, and big letters in blood scrawled "I have been murdered" on the wall, and you're taking the position there's no evidence of a murder simply because only police officers with alibis are in the room and you can't see a murderer, so they must not exist.

Progressive Object Permanence issues.

No, you just keep asserting that it is because of racism because you refuse to accept that it could be anything other than racism. Maybe check yourself for tunnel vision.