UK Politics Thread XIII: The Brexit Ship Departs

[Vassenor]

"Where exactly is this epidemic of anti-semitic racism? Because right now you're still arguing that anti-capitalism = anti-semitic."
"What's capitalism?"
"It's The Jewish Cabal controlling the world economy.".


Vass. Your ideology is anti-white, and its understanding of what racism is, how it functions and so on, is anti-white. That's why you saying you're "anti-racist" and "want equality" is not relevant. There are countless examples.

I mean, is there strong evidence to support "an epidemic of anti-white racism" in the UK?

I get the impression it's going to involve things like ethnic minority groups choosing to make their own spaces after being forced out of the mainstream ones.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Going back to the yougov poll about Labour and Keir's favourability, the article itself is interesting to read:

Opening:

YouGov examines the aftermath of the Labour party's decision to suspend Jeremy Corbyn
After yesterday’s dramatic events our snap poll shows that, by a margin of 58% to 13%, the public overwhelmingly backed Keir Starmer’s decision to suspend Jeremy Corbyn from the Labour Party.

The driver of public backing for the move doesn’t seem to be that people think Corbyn is anti-Semitic. While around a third (32%) think he is, 25% think he isn’t and many more, 43%, say they don’t know either way.

Nevertheless, Corbyn is seen as having mishandled his reaction to the accusations. Just 7% of Brits think he has responded well, with fully three quarters (76%) thinking he responded badly (including 72% of Labour voters).

And then this end bit here:

While the small drop in his favourability ratings might be worrying to the new Labour leader, Starmer can take some comfort in the fact that he has seen an increase in the number of people who consider him to have positive leadership attributes.

Over the course of October the proportion of people who think the Labour leader is “competent” has risen from 40% to 49%. On “decisive” he has gone from 33% to 38%, and on “strong” he has gone from 32% to 37%. In each of these cases this is the highest he has polled on these measures since he took over as leader.

In the long run, it is these shifts that will likely end up being more significant than the short term hit to the Labour party’s favouability.

public perceptions

So strong possibility this might be a temporary hit to Labour's ratings and his own as the percentage of people assigning him positive leader traits has risen. But have to wait and see what future polls say.

[Ostroeuropa]

"Where exactly is this epidemic of anti-semitic racism? Because right now you're still arguing that anti-capitalism = anti-semitic."
"What's capitalism?"
"It's The Jewish Cabal controlling the world economy.".


Vass. Your ideology is anti-white, and its understanding of what racism is, how it functions and so on, is anti-white. That's why you saying you're "anti-racist" is not relevant.

So you can't provide actual examples of your alleged anti-white racism and just opt to deflect and re-assert.

It's been provided to you at length in the past.

"Where exactly is this epidemic of anti-semitic racism? Because right now you're still arguing that anti-capitalism = anti-semitic."
"What's capitalism?"
"It's The Jewish Cabal controlling the world economy.".


Vass. Your ideology is anti-white, and its understanding of what racism is, how it functions and so on, is anti-white. That's why you saying you're "anti-racist" and "want equality" is not relevant. There are countless examples.

I mean, is there strong evidence to support "an epidemic of anti-white racism" in the UK?

Firstly the normalization of the term white privilege and its usage is a strong example of anti-white racism, as it has no positive effect. It merely makes people lose empathy for white people. This is an example of the racist framework and ideology that is now used to determine these discussions and public policy and how it is rooted in anti-white rhetoric and effects.

[Celritannia]

I mean, is there strong evidence to support "an epidemic of anti-white racism" in the UK?

Firstly the normalization of the term white privilege and its usage is a strong example of anti-white racism, as it has no positive effect. It merely makes people lose empathy for white people. This is an example of the racist framework and ideology that is now used to determine these discussions and public policy and how it is rooted in anti-white rhetoric and effects.

That's not really evidence though, nor does it show it is an epidemic.
I also disagree it makes people lose empathy for "white people", sice "white people" is a large group of people that are not really united by anything, unlike ones class.
Many groups do cross over as well, such as working class ethnic groups and working class whites, or university educated ethnic groups and whites.

Sure, I would agree it's more of a nuisance, but hardly correlates to an epidemic of anti-white racism.

But it is trues that there have been anti-white remarks, and sure they should be punished equally. But it's such a minor thing, it's almost rare.

[Ostroeuropa]

Firstly the normalization of the term white privilege and its usage is a strong example of anti-white racism, as it has no positive effect. It merely makes people lose empathy for white people. This is an example of the racist framework and ideology that is now used to determine these discussions and public policy and how it is rooted in anti-white rhetoric and effects.

That's not really evidence though, nor does it show it is an epidemic.
I also disagree it makes people lose empathy for "white people", sice "white people" is a large group of people that are not really united by anything, unlike ones class.
Many groups do cross over as well, such as working class ethnic groups and working class whites, or university educated ethnic groups and whites.

Sure, I would agree it's more of a nuisance, but hardly correlates to an epidemic of anti-white racism.

But it is trues that there have been anti-white remarks, and sure they should be punished equally. But it's such a minor thing, it's almost rare.

"Epidemic" is not a term that can be "Proven" on a topic like this dude. It's a subjective measure. By saying you don't think it's an epidemic and I haven't "Proven it is", you're actually saying "You haven't made me give a shit about it.".

And yes, it is evidence.
You can disagree white privilege rhetoric makes people lose empathy for white people, but you'd be wrong. It's been studied.



There are other examples but frankly I expect excuse making and downplaying for each one of them.

As for "Minor thing, almost rare".

You're either prepared to accept it or you're not.

Example of the impact:
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/whit ... cit-714693

The status deficit caused by the relentless anti-white campaigning and rhetoric of the progressive left's hate movement is a problem for the white community with material impacts on their wellbeing.

This status deficit and the progressive lefts anti-white rhetoric also causes a lack of empathy for the majority of poor in this country, so deflecting to "It's about class" is not relevant. You can claim black peoples problems are about class too, but if you're actively making people give a shit about the black working classes, that's racism.

This is also relevant to Rawlsian and several other modern political theorists who published repeatedly on the important of recognition, status, and social capital as intrinsically tied to material wellbeing. These observations were in fact the basis of much of the theory of the progressive left.

Could go on all day. You're basically asking me "Which parts of Britain is British and how?" when you ask a question like that. How about this. You grab a discussion about white people you think is fine, and i'll point out to you the ways it isn't.

[Celritannia]

In response to the edit, this is more of an educational problem overall than simply something to do with race.
But with the UK being 85% white, statistically there will be more working class students facing problems. But this is not the result of "progressive left's hate movement", as there is no hate movement.
You are finding a bogeyman where there isn't one. Decades of Tory cuts to local councils and education has resulted in these problems.

[Celritannia]

That's not really evidence though, nor does it show it is an epidemic.
I also disagree it makes people lose empathy for "white people", sice "white people" is a large group of people that are not really united by anything, unlike ones class.
Many groups do cross over as well, such as working class ethnic groups and working class whites, or university educated ethnic groups and whites.

Sure, I would agree it's more of a nuisance, but hardly correlates to an epidemic of anti-white racism.

But it is trues that there have been anti-white remarks, and sure they should be punished equally. But it's such a minor thing, it's almost rare.

"Epidemic" is not a term that can be "Proven" on a topic like this dude. It's a subjective measure. By saying you don't think it's an epidemic and I haven't "Proven it is", you're actually saying "You haven't made me give a shit about it.".

And yes, it is evidence.
You can disagree, but you'd be wrong and it's been studied.

I care about educational problems as a working class student struggling in school, so don't put word into my mouth please.

But there is not epidemic of white-racism, that's what you are arguing.

[Ostroeuropa]

In response to the edit, this is more of an educational problem overall than simply something to do with race.
But with the UK being 85% white, statistically there will be more working class students facing problems. But this is not the result of "progressive left's hate movement", as there is no hate movement.
You are finding a bogeyman where there isn't one. Decades of Tory cuts to local councils and education has resulted in these problems.

I've been over this with you before. This is equivalent to saying there is no racism problem in the police force.

There should be 85% of the students facing problems being white, and they should face the same extent of the problem as other demographics. That is not the case. Instead whites are disproportionately facing issues both in terms of scale and frequency. That requires an explanation that accounts for their race and why it is a statistically relevant factor, but you refuse to provide one.

[Ostroeuropa]

"Epidemic" is not a term that can be "Proven" on a topic like this dude. It's a subjective measure. By saying you don't think it's an epidemic and I haven't "Proven it is", you're actually saying "You haven't made me give a shit about it.".

And yes, it is evidence.
You can disagree, but you'd be wrong and it's been studied.

I care about educational problems as a working class student struggling in school, so don't put word into my mouth please.

But there is not epidemic of white-racism, that's what you are arguing.

The education example is just one example, there are plenty of others.

You say you care, but seem unwilling to apply an intersectional understanding of issues where that might reveal anti-white racism is normal in our society and impacts the vast majority of white peoples material wellbeing, and turn to class reductionism to avoid acknowledging it.

I never used the term epidemic. I said it is normalized and advocated for by a political faction.

[Celritannia]

In response to the edit, this is more of an educational problem overall than simply something to do with race.
But with the UK being 85% white, statistically there will be more working class students facing problems. But this is not the result of "progressive left's hate movement", as there is no hate movement.
You are finding a bogeyman where there isn't one. Decades of Tory cuts to local councils and education has resulted in these problems.

I've been over this with you before. This is equivalent to saying there is no racism problem in the police force.

There should be 85% of the students facing problems being white, and they should face the same extent of the problem as other demographics. That is not the case. Instead whites are disproportionately facing issues both in terms of scale and frequency. That requires an explanation that accounts for their race, but you refuse to provide one.

And there is a bloody difference between police racism and education.

It isn't to do with heir race, it's to do with which counties and areas of the UK receive more money for education.
Do you have evidence to say the entire white student body of the UK is facing a racism problem? Because that is far fetched.

[Vassenor]

So by saying that white people don't face problems related to their ethnicity (which is what white privilege means when you break it down) we're being racist against white people?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Ostroeuropa]

I've been over this with you before. This is equivalent to saying there is no racism problem in the police force.

There should be 85% of the students facing problems being white, and they should face the same extent of the problem as other demographics. That is not the case. Instead whites are disproportionately facing issues both in terms of scale and frequency. That requires an explanation that accounts for their race, but you refuse to provide one.

And there is a bloody difference between police racism and education.

It isn't to do with heir race, it's to do with which counties and areas of the UK receive more money for education.
Do you have evidence to say the entire white student body of the UK is facing a racism problem? Because that is far fetched.

There is a difference. One chiefly impacts minorities, and the other chiefly impacts white people. You're willing to acknowledge one, but not the other and seek to make excuses for it that avoid acknowledging the racial factor because you believe in a mythology functionally equivalent to the post-racial society and how that motivates people to make excuses and try and explain away police racism.

What is your evidence for this claim that it's not to do with race? Can you show me how you've studied the matter and found this to be a variable that removes the difference? Which study?

So by saying that white people don't face problems related to their ethnicity (which is what white privilege means when you break it down) we're being racist against white people?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Partly yes. Because they do in fact face problems related to their ethnicity, and refusal to confront it prevents solutions to those problems.

[The New California Republic]

The iconic James Bond, Sean Connery, has died. There is a remembrance thread here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=493694

[Celritannia]

I care about educational problems as a working class student struggling in school, so don't put word into my mouth please.

But there is not epidemic of white-racism, that's what you are arguing.

The education example is just one example, there are plenty of others.

You say you care, but seem unwilling to apply an intersectional understanding of issues where that might reveal anti-white racism is normal in our society and impacts the vast majority of white peoples material wellbeing, and turn to class reductionism to avoid acknowledging it.

I never used the term epidemic. I said it is normalized and advocated for by a political faction.

Again, do not assume what I think.

Because there isn't a race issue against whites.
I've made it clear there have been comments of jokes that have been racist against white people.

You might not have said "epidemic", but you are sure making it sound like there is one.

[Ostroeuropa]

The education example is just one example, there are plenty of others.

You say you care, but seem unwilling to apply an intersectional understanding of issues where that might reveal anti-white racism is normal in our society and impacts the vast majority of white peoples material wellbeing, and turn to class reductionism to avoid acknowledging it.

I never used the term epidemic. I said it is normalized and advocated for by a political faction.

Again, do not assume what I think.

Because there isn't a race issue against whites.
I've made it clear there have been comments of jokes that have been racist against white people.

You might not have said "epidemic", but you are sure making it sound like there is one.

Why don't you apply an intersectional understanding to these issues but do for issues relating to other demographics? Do you realize you're begging the question?

If you just flat out refused to utilize frameworks for detecting racism against black people, you could do the same thing you are here. and people did, and still do. Hence why I pointed out you're behaving in a way similar to those who believe in the post-racial society and feel motivated to make excuses and find explanations for police violence other than racism.

[Celritannia]

And there is a bloody difference between police racism and education.

It isn't to do with heir race, it's to do with which counties and areas of the UK receive more money for education.
Do you have evidence to say the entire white student body of the UK is facing a racism problem? Because that is far fetched.

There is a difference. One chiefly impacts minorities, and the other chiefly impacts white people. You're willing to acknowledge one, but not the other and seek to make excuses for it that avoid acknowledging the racial factor because you believe in a mythology functionally equivalent to the post-racial society and how that motivates people to make excuses and try and explain away police racism.

What is your evidence for this claim that it's not to do with race? Can you show me how you've studied the matter and found this to be a variable that removes the difference? Which study?

So by saying that white people don't face problems related to their ethnicity (which is what white privilege means when you break it down) we're being racist against white people?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Partly yes. Because they do in fact face problems related to their ethnicity, and refusal to confront it prevents solutions to those problems.

1. No, it does not. Please provide evidence the education system of England and Wales is being racist against white students.
Because there is no racism against whites in the Education sector.

2. Burden of proof lies with the person trying to prove something, not with the person denying it.
So unless you actually have any evidence, this argument is over.

[Celritannia]

Again, do not assume what I think.

Because there isn't a race issue against whites.
I've made it clear there have been comments of jokes that have been racist against white people.

You might not have said "epidemic", but you are sure making it sound like there is one.

Why don't you apply an intersectional understanding to these issues but do for issues relating to other demographics? Do you realize you're begging the question?

If you just flat out refused to utilize frameworks for detecting racism against black people, you could do the same thing you are here. and people did, and still do. Hence why I pointed out you're behaving in a way similar to those who believe in the post-racial society and feel motivated to make excuses and find explanations for police violence other than racism.

Give me some actual evidence then.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why don't you apply an intersectional understanding to these issues but do for issues relating to other demographics? Do you realize you're begging the question?

If you just flat out refused to utilize frameworks for detecting racism against black people, you could do the same thing you are here. and people did, and still do. Hence why I pointed out you're behaving in a way similar to those who believe in the post-racial society and feel motivated to make excuses and find explanations for police violence other than racism.

Give me some actual evidence then.

I have given you evidence. You have made excuses for it, ones you haven't bothered to actually demonstrate explain the phenomena, because there is no study showing that the totality of the education crisis is caused by what you say it is. You have simply made it up based on your predisposition to disbelieving white racism is possible and are prepared to wander off to imaginationland rather than actually engage with the facts as we currently understand them. You could conduct such a study if you have a 'Reckon' about it, but your 'reckons' are not a good basis for public policy or understanding of politics.

Another example would be how the mast hated demographic in the UK according to polling is young white males.
Or the underrepresentation of heterosexual white males on television programmes.
The rotherham scandal is another example of the consequences of anti-white racism.
The education one is the most pressing however, at least in my opinion.

[Celritannia]

Give me some actual evidence then.

I have given you evidence. You have made excuses for it, ones you haven't bothered to actually demonstrate explain the phenomena either.

Another example would be how the mast hated demographic in the UK according to polling is young white males.
Or the underrepresentation of heterosexual white males on television programmes.

The rotherham scandal is another example of the consequences of anti-white racism.

Because the report does not say the education system is racist against white working class children, and to make a thin argument to say it is, is illogical at best.

[Dumb Ideologies]

There is certainly an issue with there being proactive programs for ethnic minority kids but none for working-class white kids, especially boys, who are just seen as "not trying hard enough" or "having a cultural problem".

This is due to an institutional classism of sorts that intersects with racist and sexist biases. If you have a narrative of having to help minority kids and girls achieve because they face unfair disadvantage but you just write off white boys in very similar terms as people used to write off blacks then there is a definite institutional problem.

[Ostroeuropa]

I have given you evidence. You have made excuses for it, ones you haven't bothered to actually demonstrate explain the phenomena either.

Another example would be how the mast hated demographic in the UK according to polling is young white males.
Or the underrepresentation of heterosexual white males on television programmes.

The rotherham scandal is another example of the consequences of anti-white racism.

Because the report does not say the education system is racist against white working class children, and to make a thin argument to say it is, is illogical at best.

It demonstrates that white working class children face the worst outcomes from education. That is a racist outcome. It would remain racist even if it were due to poor financing of white schools relative to minority ones. Your defence amounts to "It's not racism, it's just racism.", and to be clear, I don't agree your excuse is any good. Status deficit is a vital component of the problem.

there is no study showing that the totality of the education crisis is caused by what you say it is. You have simply made it up based on your predisposition to disbelieving white racism is possible and are prepared to wander off to imaginationland rather than actually engage with the facts as we currently understand them. You could conduct such a study if you have a 'Reckon' about it, but your 'reckons' are not a good basis for public policy or understanding of politics.

[Celritannia]

Another example would be how the mast hated demographic in the UK according to polling is young white males.

Ehhh...

Or the underrepresentation of heterosexual white males on television programmes.

That's not technically true, depending where and when a specific show is set.

The rotherham scandal is another example of the consequences of anti-white racism.

I never disagreed there was no anti-white racist examples, I am denying it's widespread.

The education one is the most pressing however, at least in my opinion.

And to say the Education system of the UK (or England and Wales) is racist is laughable.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is certainly an issue with there being proactive programs for ethnic minority kids but none for working-class white kids, especially boys, who are just seen as "not trying hard enough" or "having a cultural problem".

This is an intersection of classism with racist and sexist biases because the narrative of having to help minority kids and girls achieve better partly mitigates institutionally classist sentiment because class is made less visible in the narrative.

You would think this would be obvious yes. But some people refuse to apply intersectionality when it might reveal anti-white or anti-male prejudices in our society.

[Ostroeuropa]

Another example would be how the mast hated demographic in the UK according to polling is young white males.

Ehhh...

Or the underrepresentation of heterosexual white males on television programmes.

That's not technically true, depending where and when a specific show is set.

The rotherham scandal is another example of the consequences of anti-white racism.

I never disagreed there was no anti-white racist examples, I am denying it's widespread.

The education one is the most pressing however, at least in my opinion.

And to say the Education system of the UK (or England and Wales) is racist is laughable.

Why is it laughable? Your entire argument amounts to arguing that the entirety of the phenomena can be explained by the fact that white schools are underfunded relative to minority ones, so it's not racism.

Like.

Dude.

Have you even seen how racism works in the US?

[Vassenor]

...wait how is an incident involving a child grooming ring run by Muslims proof of anti-white racism?