NationStates

The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan wrote:I FOLLOW HINDUISM , according to Hinduism there are many gods , each one for each purpose . These many gods are in fact headed by a Greater God known as the Brahma , who created the Universe and solar systems and even the Gods are created by him , and Shiva is the greatest of all Gods even greater than Brahma. Lord Shiva might be called as the great God in Hinduism and Lord Vishnu protects the Universe . Therefore i conclude this post by saying that , the trinity known as Brahma , Vishnu and Shiva are Great. There are known temples for Vishnu and Shiva , but sadly nobody worships Brahma , though he created everything .

Why should we believe all that though?

I don't know enough to be a firm atheist on religions outside the desert quadrillogy, but for those four (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism) it's demonstrable that there is no God. Furthermore, even were we to discount the evidence against existence, the evidence of malevolence must still be dealt with as it too is demonstrable.

Meikaii wrote:I don't know enough to be a firm atheist on religions outside the desert quadrillogy, but for those four (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism) it's demonstrable that there is no God. Furthermore, even were we to discount the evidence against existence, the evidence of malevolence must still be dealt with as it too is demonstrable.

If God does make himself known, I say present Him with a bill for damages.

It's God which gives you the bill for all the shit you have done.
People trying to shift to God their own responsibilities (or to anyone else, really) is what immaturity is.

Lost Memories wrote:It's God which gives you the bill for all the shit you have done.
People trying to shift to God their own responsibilities (or to anyone else, really) is what immaturity is.

Dude, I didn't make parasitic wasps. That's all on him.

Lost Memories wrote:It's God which gives you the bill for all the shit you have done.
People trying to shift to God their own responsibilities (or to anyone else, really) is what immaturity is.

To be fair, if God is all powerful and created humanity, as well as all knowing, that means he planned out every sin in advance.

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:

Lost Memories wrote:It's God which gives you the bill for all the shit you have done.
People trying to shift to God their own responsibilities (or to anyone else, really) is what immaturity is.

To be fair, if God is all powerful and created humanity, as well as all knowing, that means he planned out every sin in advance.

Islam says he gave us free will, so it’s our fault.

Insaanistan wrote:

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:To be fair, if God is all powerful and created humanity, as well as all knowing, that means he planned out every sin in advance.

Islam says he gave us free will, so it’s our fault.

You can't have free will if God already has a plan and can foresee everything. That's not free will. That's the illusion of free will.

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:Islam says he gave us free will, so it’s our fault.

You can't have free will if God already has a plan and can foresee everything. That's not free will. That's the illusion of free will.

We believe that God allows us to choose before we are alive what we will do in life, but that he already knows what we will do. He has a “plan” in the sense of tests and trials to throw at you, among other things.

Insaanistan wrote:

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:You can't have free will if God already has a plan and can foresee everything. That's not free will. That's the illusion of free will.

We believe that God allows us to choose before we are alive what we will do in life, but that he already knows what we will do. He has a “plan” in the sense of tests and trials to throw at you, among other things.

Again, the illusion of free will.

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:We believe that God allows us to choose before we are alive what we will do in life, but that he already knows what we will do. He has a “plan” in the sense of tests and trials to throw at you, among other things.

Again, the illusion of free will.

I don’t know how that’s an illusion. It’s just God being able to see the future. If he DIDN’T let us choose, people would say, “You made us do bad.”

Insaanistan wrote:

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:You can't have free will if God already has a plan and can foresee everything. That's not free will. That's the illusion of free will.

We believe that God allows us to choose before we are alive what we will do in life, but that he already knows what we will do. He has a “plan” in the sense of tests and trials to throw at you, among other things.

As a side note, do you perchance know if there's a name for this doctrine? I've heard it exists in Neoplatonist writings as well but have never learned what is the actual name (if any).

Suriyanakhon wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:We believe that God allows us to choose before we are alive what we will do in life, but that he already knows what we will do. He has a “plan” in the sense of tests and trials to throw at you, among other things.

As a side note, do you perchance know if there's a name for this doctrine? I've heard it exists in Neoplatonist writings as well but have never learned what is the actual name (if any).

Not exactly, no. If I find it, I’ll try to remember to let you know.

Insaanistan wrote:

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Again, the illusion of free will.

I don’t know how that’s an illusion. It’s just God being able to see the future. If he DIDN’T let us choose, people would say, “You made us do bad.”

You believe that you are, in the moment, making a free choice, but in reality your soul decided before you were born.

(Side note: couldn't God have created humanity to have a much better and less corruptible moral conscience?)

The Socialist Republic of Astrakhan wrote:I FOLLOW HINDUISM , according to Hinduism there are many gods , each one for each purpose . These many gods are in fact headed by a Greater God known as the Brahma , who created the Universe and solar systems and even the Gods are created by him , and Shiva is the greatest of all Gods even greater than Brahma. Lord Shiva might be called as the great God in Hinduism and Lord Vishnu protects the Universe . Therefore i conclude this post by saying that , the trinity known as Brahma , Vishnu and Shiva are Great. There are known temples for Vishnu and Shiva , but sadly nobody worships Brahma , though he created everything .

To be fair, not wanting to worship someone after they marry their own daughter is a normal response.

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:I don’t know how that’s an illusion. It’s just God being able to see the future. If he DIDN’T let us choose, people would say, “You made us do bad.”

You believe that you are, in the moment, making a free choice, but in reality your soul decided before you were born.

(Side note: couldn't God have created humanity to have a much better and less corruptible moral conscience?)

That’s how he created Angels: unable to do bad and only able to follow him.
However, he decided (literally God knows why) to make Humans and Jinn able to choose to be good or bad.

Insaanistan wrote:

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:You believe that you are, in the moment, making a free choice, but in reality your soul decided before you were born.

(Side note: couldn't God have created humanity to have a much better and less corruptible moral conscience?)

That’s how he created Angels: unable to do bad and only able to follow him.
However, he decided (literally God knows why) to make Humans and Jinn able to choose to be good or bad.

If God found it necessary to give humans free will, then he could still guide our actions in a more positive direction. If the desire to help others was at least as strong as, say, the survival instinct, the world would probably be a better place.

But what I understand you to be asserting is that God doesn't do that for reasons he won't reveal or we wouldn't understand. Which seems to me merely a way of dodging the problem; if I am incapable of understanding the solution, I have no way of knowing that such a solution exists.

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:
That’s how he created Angels: unable to do bad and only able to follow him.
However, he decided (literally God knows why) to make Humans and Jinn able to choose to be good or bad.

If God found it necessary to give humans free will, then he could still guide our actions in a more positive direction. If the desire to help others was at least as strong as, say, the survival instinct, the world would probably be a better place.

But what I understand you to be asserting is that God doesn't do that for reasons he won't reveal or we wouldn't understand. Which seems to me merely a way of dodging the problem; if I am incapable of understanding the solution, I have no way of knowing that such a solution exists.

So the Universe doesn’t exist because we don’t understand how everything came to be exactly?

Insaanistan wrote:

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:If God found it necessary to give humans free will, then he could still guide our actions in a more positive direction. If the desire to help others was at least as strong as, say, the survival instinct, the world would probably be a better place.

But what I understand you to be asserting is that God doesn't do that for reasons he won't reveal or we wouldn't understand. Which seems to me merely a way of dodging the problem; if I am incapable of understanding the solution, I have no way of knowing that such a solution exists.

So the Universe doesn’t exist because we don’t understand how everything came to be exactly?

I know that the Universe exists because I am observing it.
Let me put it this way:
Even if there was direct evidence of an omnipotent intelligence behind the universe, the only way to prove that that intelligence is all-loving is by their actions. When all evidence indicates that any all-powerful being that does exist easily could, but does not, prevent suffering, then the explanation that such a being exists but has reasons for inaction that we don't understand is not nearly as simple or believable as the explanation that no being exists that is both all-loving and all-powerful.

Lost Memories wrote:It's God which gives you the bill for all the shit you have done.
People trying to shift to God their own responsibilities (or to anyone else, really) is what immaturity is.

God clearly set us up to fail. He got to choose what the punishment for sin was, he created us morally weak enough to bend to the temptations of snake, he chose to guard the garden of eden only after the damage was done, etc. Sin is a god made invention, and all the blood and sorrow that follows is on his hands.

Insaanistan wrote:

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:To be fair, if God is all powerful and created humanity, as well as all knowing, that means he planned out every sin in advance.

Islam says he gave us free will, so it’s our fault.

But didn't Allah give Iblis the ability to lie and tempt non-believers? How are we to be fully blamed for our actions when Allah makes non-believers especially vulnerable to demonic persuasion?

VoVoDoCo wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:Islam says he gave us free will, so it’s our fault.

But didn't Allah give Iblis the ability to lie and tempt non-believers? How are we to be fully blamed for our actions when Allah makes non-believers especially vulnerable to demonic persuasion?

The Qur’ân never says non-Muslims are more susceptible to sinning. Additionally, Iblis (Satan) is a jinn. God didn’t create him to tempt humans, but he allows Shaytan to do so. You are responsible for your own actions. Satan is like that bad kid always saying “Do it! Do it! Do it!”

Insaanistan wrote:

VoVoDoCo wrote:But didn't Allah give Iblis the ability to lie and tempt non-believers? How are we to be fully blamed for our actions when Allah makes non-believers especially vulnerable to demonic persuasion?

The Qur’ân never says non-Muslims are more susceptible to sinning. Additionally, Iblis (Satan) is a jinn. God didn’t create him to tempt humans, but he allows Shaytan to do so. You are responsible for your own actions. Satan is like that bad kid always saying “Do it! Do it! Do it!”

I didn't say sin, I said demonic persuasion. Doesn't it say that Satan can deceive infidels but not believers?

Allah is still responsible. Allah created the Jinn with "free will" (which is a contestable point to say the least.) He created Satan knowing he would be pious enough to join the angels. He created humans out of clay, knowing Satan would view them as inferior (a mindset Allah would've known he'd develop if he didn't already have the mindset already). Allah told the angels to worship humans, knowing this would offend Satan. Allah allowed Satan to act as a deceiver, knowing that would lead many people astray. Allah is responsible.

My child is responsible for his actions. But I would never go out of my way to invite negative influences in his life as some kind of a pitiful test. That's atrocious.

And at the end of the day, this would would need to be demonstrated. Can you prove any of this?

VoVoDoCo wrote:

Insaanistan wrote:The Qur’ân never says non-Muslims are more susceptible to sinning. Additionally, Iblis (Satan) is a jinn. God didn’t create him to tempt humans, but he allows Shaytan to do so. You are responsible for your own actions. Satan is like that bad kid always saying “Do it! Do it! Do it!”

I didn't say sin, I said demonic persuasion. Doesn't it say that Satan can deceive infidels but not believers?

Allah is still responsible. Allah created the Jinn with "free will" (which is a contestable point to say the least.) He created Satan knowing he would be pious enough to join the angels. He created humans out of clay, knowing Satan would view them as inferior (a mindset Allah would've known he'd develop if he didn't already have the mindset already). Allah told the angels to worship humans, knowing this would offend Satan. Allah allowed Satan to act as a deceiver, knowing that would lead many people astray. Allah is responsible.

My child is responsible for his actions. But I would never go out of my way to invite negative influences in his life as some kind of a pitiful test. That's atrocious.

And at the end of the day, this would would need to be demonstrated. Can you prove any of this?

Allah didn’t tell the Angels to worship Adam (pbuh), just to bow to him in a respectful manner. And think for a moment: what if God just didn’t test people at all. Everyone, even people who don’t really deserve it because of what they have in their hearts, would go to heaven. Or, people who were sent to hell would say “We never did anything wrong!” Additionally, this life is temporary, and working through God’s tests is the way to go to heaven. Additionally, God tells us he never allows us to be burdened with more than we can bear. Therefore, you CHOOSE to fail the test.

Insaanistan wrote:

VoVoDoCo wrote:I didn't say sin, I said demonic persuasion. Doesn't it say that Satan can deceive infidels but not believers?

Allah is still responsible. Allah created the Jinn with "free will" (which is a contestable point to say the least.) He created Satan knowing he would be pious enough to join the angels. He created humans out of clay, knowing Satan would view them as inferior (a mindset Allah would've known he'd develop if he didn't already have the mindset already). Allah told the angels to worship humans, knowing this would offend Satan. Allah allowed Satan to act as a deceiver, knowing that would lead many people astray. Allah is responsible.

My child is responsible for his actions. But I would never go out of my way to invite negative influences in his life as some kind of a pitiful test. That's atrocious.

And at the end of the day, this would would need to be demonstrated. Can you prove any of this?

Allah didn’t tell the Angels to worship Adam (pbuh), just to bow to him in a respectful manner. And think for a moment: what if God just didn’t test people at all. Everyone, even people who don’t really deserve it because of what they have in their hearts, would go to heaven. Or, people who were sent to hell would say “We never did anything wrong!” Additionally, this life is temporary, and working through God’s tests is the way to go to heaven. Additionally, God tells us he never allows us to be burdened with more than we can bear. Therefore, you CHOOSE to fail the test.

Fair enough point, it wasn't worship. But the rest of it still stands.


Allah created the Jinn with "free will" (which is a contestable point to say the least.) He created Satan knowing he would be pious enough to join the angels. He created humans out of clay, knowing Satan would view them as inferior (a mindset Allah would've known he'd develop if he didn't already have the mindset already). Allah told the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam, knowing this would offend Satan. Allah allowed Satan to act as a deceiver, knowing that would lead many people astray.

Not to mention there are numerous verses that suggest that Iblis may not be the only one doing the decieving.

2:6-7
As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.
6:25
We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness.
17:97-98
As for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them. That is their reward because they disbelieved Our revelations.
18:57
Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright.

What if God didn't test people and just taught people? Why make us go through all these tests to prove our worth, when he could create us worthy of paradise to begin with? Isn't it unfair to judge a person's soul knowing that their choices are largely influenced by the demonic spirit you've allowed to enter the world and interfere in our choices? What's the point of these tests if he already know whether or not we are capable of passing the tests in advance? If Allah could've made sure I was born in another country and ensuring that I became a Muslim, isn't my fate in his hands anyway?

And why are the possibilities 1. Allah conducts tests or 2. Allah conducts no tests at all? When the rewards and punishments are so extreme, any just ruler would have few more things to consider than merely, "Did they pass my tests or fall for the deception and lies that I allow into the world?"

As far as, "God tells us he never allows us to be burdened with more than we can bear" goes, that's unfalsifiable. There's no way to prove that wrong.

Claim: Allah never gives us more than we can bare.
I overcome the challenge: the claim holds up.
I fail to overcome the challenges and don't give my life over to Allah: I chose to fail or didn't try hard enough.

It's impossible to prove that wrong since there's no way to test and observe that claim. Speaking of, can you prove any of this?