NationStates

Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.

Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.

IIRC they do on average; not because they believe in heaven or hell - but because they are part of a clearly defined community.
Humans are social animals; and the christian image of a shepherd with his flock does not exist for nothing.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

It also assumes that:

1. There is only one possible god

2. That not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering.

3. That the Christian god is specifically the only correct one. You could apply this to pretty much every religion.

Nuroblav wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

It also assumes that:

1. There is only one possible god

2. That not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering.

3. That the Christian god is specifically the only correct one. You could apply this to pretty much every religion.

4. that the KJV is the definitely completely absolutely 100% correct and true version of the Bible, and that all of the previous versions that lacked certain features (such as the non-ending to Mark 16, where Jesus never gets revived) or have features that the KJV lacks (such as polytheism or the 11th Commandment) were wrong, and everyone born before the 16th Century automatically goes to Hell.

For the ignorants out there:


(Click to zoom)


Point being:
No, not all who "not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering"
Only the intellectually dis-honest and people in state of grave sin go to hell.
Even if ignorant, "Honest seekers of Truth" can get mercy, but that assumes the ignorant, because they are honest and seek truth, would have accepted the gospel, if they had the chance. That's what "Honest seekers of Truth" mean.

Hell is full of intellectually dis-honest ignorant people, who did indulge in their flawed nature, and christians who didn't repent their grave sins.

Tea Chuggers wrote:

Nuroblav wrote:It also assumes that:

1. There is only one possible god

2. That not believing in said god automatically constitutes eternal suffering.

3. That the Christian god is specifically the only correct one. You could apply this to pretty much every religion.

4. that the KJV is the definitely completely absolutely 100% correct and true version of the Bible, and that all of the previous versions that lacked certain features (such as the non-ending to Mark 16, where Jesus never gets revived) or have features that the KJV lacks (such as polytheism or the 11th Commandment) were wrong, and everyone born before the 16th Century automatically goes to Hell.

And, 5 (as I mentioned) that God appreciates you worshipping him for a wager instead out of genuine belief.

One further addendum:
Gospel and the books of the bible aren't the same thing.

The Gospel of Jesus is the message of Jesus.
Faith is when the message of Jesus is accepted.

That message of Jesus was carried on in two ways:
Tradition: oral knowledge
Scripture: written knowledge

Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
Holy Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."

p 81
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ ... s1c2a2.htm

So when you mention or twist around the scriptures, that shows you actually didn't receive the gospel contained in the scriptures.
Meaning those who mis-understand the scriptures are still in a state of ignorance of the Gospel of Jesus.

Lost Memories wrote:For the ignorants out there:

(Image)

That looks like the worst choose your own adventure book

Jedi Council wrote:That looks like the worst choose your own adventure book

Welcome to theology. (or maybe that actually counts as ecclesiology)

That chart is pretty oversimplified. It takes for granted quite some big points, but it's a start for who knows nothing.

Lost Memories wrote:

Jedi Council wrote:That looks like the worst choose your own adventure book

Welcome to theology. That chart is pretty oversimplified.

Good thing it has little bearing on whether or not God exists.

Jedi Council wrote:

Lost Memories wrote:Welcome to theology. That chart is pretty oversimplified.

Good thing it has little bearing on whether or not God exists.

Knowing the Gospel does.


Besides, that was a reply to a claim above, which also had little bearing on whether or not God exists.
Read the edit.

Lost Memories wrote:

Jedi Council wrote:Good thing it has little bearing on whether or not God exists.

Knowing the Gospel does.


Besides, that was a reply to a claim above, which also had little bearing on whether or not God exists.
Read the edit.

Still unsure of how anything you have posted thus far is evidence of Gods existence.

It illuminates Christian theology sure, but that's about it.

Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?

So if you ask "Does God exist materially?" to a christian, the answer is: no.
Likewise, that applies to requests for a material proof as reason to believe. It will always be: no.

The question itself runs on the ignorant premise that christians rely on materiality to explain the divine.
Pagans did believe gods to be inside the universe. Christians don't, as god as understood by pagans and by christians are fundamentally different.

Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?

So if you ask "Does God exist materially?" to a christian, the answer is: no.
Likewise, that applies to requests for a material proof as reason to believe. It will always be: no.

The question itself runs on the ignorant premise that christians rely on materiality to explain the divine.
Pagans did believe gods to be inside the universe. Christians don't, as god as understood by pagans and by christians are fundamentally different.

The question "Does your God exist materially?" or "show me the material proof of the god you profess" only works with pagans. (or with those christians who are so ignorant of their own faith, to actually think like pagans)
And actually, it was christians to use those questions to wipe out pagan belief. Atheists parroting them against christians is, curious.

I suspect it depends on the Christians you're asking.
That said, if one believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe, then he can have no effect on the material one.

Belief in them is also equivalent to basically anything else with no evidence, from unicorns, to vampires, or the invisible dragon in my garage. To whit, I have to ask, what then makes your belief any more worthy of attention or respect than any other un-evidenced belief.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.

Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?

Since you asked, I was curious and found this study of Central and Eastern Euro countries' Christian populations:



There's also ofc the question of how many of those who believe in Hell believe it is eternal, but that wasn't asked in the survey I found.

Alvecia wrote:

Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?

I suspect it depends on the Christians you're asking.

Catholicism, 1,3 billion people, 50% of all christians in the world sees it that way.
The orthodox would agree too.
Some mainstream protestants may agree too.

The ones you could entertain the faulty question of "does god exists materially?", in an infinite circle of ad hominem, is probably those protestants who are so far gone to be usually excluded from protestantism as classification. (usually Evangelicals as a macro group, they have no internal unity, like protestants don't)

So pretty much, the majority of christians agree that God isn't a material being which is hidden somewhere inside the universe.

Here an image to give the idea of the branches of christianity, with a rough comparison by size:

(Click to zoom)

Alvecia wrote:To whit, I have to ask, what then makes your belief any more worthy of attention or respect than any other

Glad we finally got there, it's a matter of worth, that's the only question which has some sense and value to be asked to a christian (the majority of), when asking reasons to believe.

And to answer that question about worth, a basic understanding of what christians believe in, is necessary.
Which said basic understanding, most people asking the question "does god exist materially?" clearly lack, as either they believe all christians to be evangelicals (who are actually a fragmented minority), or they even conflate christians with pagans, which is even worse maybe.

Dunno if talking about worth of God would still stay inside the title here "Is there a God?"
Maybe if that question wasn't limited to material existence, that could work out.



Claims like:

if one believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe, then he can have no effect on the material one.

would also get addressed with just some religious education.

But yet again, no, most christians don't believe that god is only outside the universe.
That belief is called Deism i think. And most christians aren't deists, as far as i know.

These claims are different:
"believes God to exist entirely outside of the universe"
"christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe"
You may have misunderstood one with the other.

Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?

So if you ask "Does God exist materially?" to a christian, the answer is: no.
Likewise, that applies to requests for a material proof as reason to believe. It will always be: no.

The question itself runs on the ignorant premise that christians rely on materiality to explain the divine.
Pagans did believe gods to be inside the universe. Christians don't, as god as understood by pagans and by christians are fundamentally different.

The question "Does your God exist materially?" or "show me the material proof of the god you profess" only works with pagans. (or with those christians who are so ignorant of their own faith, to actually think like pagans)
And actually, it was christians to use those questions to wipe out pagan belief. Atheists parroting them against christians is, curious.

Most 'matter' in the Universe is unobservable, that is, it can't be measured, yet it's existence is implied from the fact that the Universe's small amount of observable, that is, measurable matter is organised in a way which is impossible in current theories of the behaviour of matter.
It isn't material, yet it's effects are real, and it pervades all matter. That is a perfect attribute of God.

State of Turelisa wrote:

Lost Memories wrote:Would it be shocking to you to know that christians don't believe that God materially exists hidden somewhere inside the universe?

Most 'matter' in the Universe is unobservable, that is, it can't be measured, yet it's existence is implied from the fact that the Universe's small amount of observable, that is, measurable matter is organised in a way which is impossible in current theories of the behaviour of matter.
It isn't material, yet it's effects are real, and it pervades all matter. That is a perfect attribute of God.

That sounds like a possible nice comparison, but just a comparison, not an explaination:
1) unobserved matter, is still matter, if taken at face value that explaination is still a materialistic explaination of god, which most christians would reject
2) it's still an interesting parallel to explain the "presence" of God


Though, some christians could still see that explaination as valid, just the majority doesn't.
To be clear, "matter" in materialism isn't just "solid things", electricity and gravity are also parts of the universe, so explaining god with them (and them alone) still counts as materialism.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.

Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?

A great deal of Christians believe in hell but think it's only for Hitler and Ted Bundy types, that all the other religions and nonbelievers who are good go to heaven.

I suspect that the exact denomination of the person asked is of little note for the most part. Belonging to a particular denomination is no guarantee of a particular set of beliefs

My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.

I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.

I was going to make further points about the material, but then I remembered that starting with the assumption of an all powerful being is basically a lost cause anyhow.

Lost Memories wrote:Though, some christians could still see that explaination as valid, just the majority doesn't.
To be clear, "matter" in materialism isn't just "solid things", electricity and gravity are also parts of the universe, so explaining god with them (and them alone) still counts as materialism.

So God does not interact with our universe in any way ?

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Pascal's worst assumption was that heaven exists.

Or hell. And thus any rewards or punishments God may offer should be detectable in this world.

Hmm, I wonder. I'm sure someone has studied, whether Christians have happier lives than Atheists.

Or what would be even more interesting: what's the split between Christians who believe in heaven and hell, and those who only believe in heaven?

There is no Heaven not Hell.

Heaven is the Kingdom of God, which will be established after the Last Judgment, when the dead are resurrected.

Hell is non-existent. Literal English translations of the ancient languages in which the Bible was written have rendered misunderstandings about the fate of the damned. Hell (Gehenna) is actually the destruction of souls which is described as like the burning of discarded rubbish in a place outside the walls of Jerusalem that was called Gehenna.

Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.

I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.

The dragon in your garage doesn't give you things like the prayer of the Angel of God.
You may not appreaciate things like that prayer, said differently, see its worth, but many people do.


This is the prayer of the Angel of God.
Observed in: catholic church (1,3 billion people, 50% of all christianity)

Latin version

Ángele Dei,
qui custos es mei,

me, tibi commissum
pietáte supérna,

illúmina, custódi,
rege et gubérna.

Amen

Official english version

Angel of God,
my guardian dear,
to whom God’s love commits me here,
ever this day be at my side,
to light and guard, to rule and guide.
Amen.

---
What belief points are expressed in this prayer? (on which belief this prayer is based on?)
-Angels: spiritual beings at the service of god, they are pure and immune to humans weaknesses
-Human weaknesses: to be vulnerable to temptation, to have weak wills
-Every person since birth received an angel as guardian, regardless of personal actions, deeds and misdeeds
-Guardian angels help in hardships, and lead to God
-Christian prayer: "the raising of one's mind and heart to God, or the requesting of good things from God." Prayer may be expressed vocally or mentally.
-Prayers of Intercession: prayers of intercession don't aim directly at god, but at some other being, spiritual or human, to ask them to put in a good word for us in front of god, to ask them to pray god for us
-Heavenly Piety: one of the names of God, used in the latin version to highlight why god acts


---
What are the takeaways from this prayer according to Tradition?
-Every person is precious and important to God, so much to instruct an angel as guardian for everyone
-The aid and blessings offered by god to everyone in the form of a personal guardian angel are:
to light, or illuminate: to don't walk in the dark but in the light, but also to find light in oneself, to light up the intellect and the soul
to guard: to keep safe, to be protected from evil, to be kept safe from temptations and the deception of evil
to rule: this one can mean to support, to hold firm, to hold up, when faced with difficulty or while falling
to guide: to be inspired to make the right choice, and to avoid falling in mistake, to be purposeful and to not be led astray, to be led to god
-the role of the guardian angel is that of a divinely inspired conscience
-like with conscience, the guardian angel always talks and gives good suggestions, but to listen or not, is up to the person
-the presence of a guardian angel reinforces the concept that no one is ever alone
-the prayer of the Angel of God exists not only to call more support, but also to give due respect to their presence, for the work they do, to don't take them for granted


Some pictures the Angel of God
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cort ... gel_01.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Guar ... l_1900.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... Kindes.jpg
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Schutzengelbild_(florentinisch_17Jh).jpg
https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/Plik:Ber ... zengel.jpg

Lost Memories wrote:

Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.

I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.

The dragon in your garage doesn't give you things like the prayer of the Angel of God.
You may not appreaciate things like that prayer, said differently, see its worth, but many people do.

You may not appreciate things like having an invisible, intangible, undetectable dragon in your garage, but many people do.

Lost Memories wrote:

Alvecia wrote:My question about worth was more directed in the sense of "what makes a religious belief any different from any other strong held belief", beyond perhaps popularity. The dragon in my garage as an example.

I was born and raised a Catholic, spending my entire primary and secondary education in faith schools, so I like to think I have some basic understanding of what christians believe in.

The dragon in your garage doesn't give you things like the prayer of the Angel of God.

And neither does God, since - as you claim - God is not in any way in our universe.