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Is there a God?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you believe in a God or gods?

Yes
121
34%
No
102
28%
Maybe
16
4%
We can't know
25
7%
We can't know, but leaning yes
30
8%
We can't know, but leaning no
57
16%
Other
9
3%
 
Total votes : 360

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:36 am

Aeritai wrote:Just a curious question for atheist here what do you think about people who died and came back to life saying they "saw heaven" I just want to know what your guys explanation is.


Pretty well the same as dreams: random neurological firings.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Steppe Khanate
Envoy
 
Posts: 277
Founded: Apr 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Steppe Khanate » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:36 am

I don’t know, and no one does. Scientific evidence cannot prove the existence of God, nor does it disprove it, since there are many things we simply just don’t know. I do, however, have a problem with zealots, including Atheist zealots (let people practice their religion in peace)
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New yugoslavaia
Minister
 
Posts: 2227
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby New yugoslavaia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:38 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Aeritai wrote:Just a curious question for atheist here what do you think about people who died and came back to life saying they "saw heaven" I just want to know what your guys explanation is.


Pretty well the same as dreams: random neurological firings.


AKA delusions.
Yugoslavia's back baby...

How the hell did this happen?
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New Yugoslavia just is.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:39 am

Minskiev wrote:
Greater Mobile wrote:No, there is no God.

I wish there was. It would give us someone to blame when things go awry. We would have someone to hold accountable in the aftermath of catastrophe.
We would also have someone to praise when things go right. We would know who to thank when good things happen to good people. Someone to guard us in the night.

That isn't the case however. In the face of war, hunger, peace, and prosperity - we have no one to blame. No one to thank. Instead, where we would perhaps hope to see the sway of a divine struggle, we only find the fingerprints of men.

All Gods and all Devils have been human. Our only true prayer is solidarity with the struggles of those who would work for an equitable world. Those, the downtrodden, are our Saints.


Sorry to ruin your philosophical moment, but the underlined bit is...simply wrong. War? Blame the warmongers. The attackers. The wrongdoers. Thank those bringing justice. Hunger? Blame those who created the food shortages. Thank the people making food currently. Peace? Blame...can’t really blame there, but you can thank those who created the peace. Same with prosperity, thank those who created it.


Nope. The problem with omnipotence is that you could fix everything, so not doing so is a choice, and thus you are responsible for all of it.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:43 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:See? If the Gospels where a myth why is there so much excessive and mundane details?


The same reason Harry Potter and any other work of fiction you care to name is full of mundane details like that: it's a well-known literary technique to help your readers connect to the story.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:43 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Novels can often have excessive or mundane details. Does that mean they are true? Using your metric it does...


This is 50 AD, nobody would waste precious paper to write mundane details about an event they won't consider real or at least inspirational.


The Iliad is full of similarly mundane details about the Greek gods. That doesn't mean it isn't a work of fiction.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:44 am

Salandriagado wrote:
San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:See? If the Gospels where a myth why is there so much excessive and mundane details?


The same reason Harry Potter and any other work of fiction you care to name is full of mundane details like that: it's a well-known literary technique to help your readers connect to the story.

May I ask you what you think about the Bible? When, Where, Why, and Who?

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
Nuroblav
Minister
 
Posts: 2352
Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nuroblav » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:44 am

La xinga wrote:May I ask you what you think about the Bible? When, Where, Why, and Who?

Yes
Your NS mutualist(?), individualist, metalhead and all-round...err...human. TG if you have any questions about my political or musical views.

Economic Left/Right: -4.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03

\m/ METAL IS BASED \m/

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:45 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Works of fiction existed back then too, so that isn't a satisfactory rebuke at all since what you are saying just isn't true. So, again, using your metric, those works of fiction are all true.


What about the bones of Saint Peter in the Vatican carbon dated to be from the Apostolic era?


Old bones are not surprising.

Not to mention, the characters in the crucifixion narrative are independently validated by Archeology?

For example the New York Times published about the 2000 Year Old Ring of Pontius Pilate.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/worl ... est%20Bank.


Using the names of real people in your fiction doesn't mean it isn't fiction. The Dark Tower isn't real just because Stephen King turns up in it.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:46 am

Nuroblav wrote:
La xinga wrote:May I ask you what you think about the Bible? When, Where, Why, and Who?

Yes

yes wat

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:46 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not what you were arguing. Don't change the argument. To reiterate, you said: "If the Gospels where a myth why is there so much excessive and mundane details?"

Since you are now trying to decoy the subject away from that point after I blew it out of the water, I'm taking it as a nonverbal retraction of what you said.


The topic is about God not our bickering, notice how in my first post I said that "Why would the Apostles die for a lie?"


People die for lies - ones they genuinely believe in or just ones that are politically convenient - all the damned time.

And the bones of Saint Peter in the Vatican prove that they died there.


No, they prove that at least one person died 2,000 years ago. This is not surprising.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:48 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:So yes, you do concede that we cannot use the presence of excessive or mundane details as a reliable indicator of truthfulness because of the presence of a significant number of works of fiction that include the same thing. Good. We got there eventually.


Not really sometimes excessive or mundane details are part of "circumstantial evidence". I'm no expert


That is clear.

but works of fiction have certain styles which is drastically different from works of historical accounts.


This is mostly a modern thing. 16th century historical accounts read pretty well the same as 16th century fiction.

There's a book written about it called "Cold Case Christianity" wherein a forensic detective using criteria he uses for solving cold case crime, arrived upon the veracity of the Gospels via a literary analysis.


It is literally impossible to arrive at facts about the real world by literary analysis.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Geneviev
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16432
Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:49 am

Jedi Council wrote:
Geneviev wrote:It can seem that way. But he does care for people anyway.


He does help people get through it, which is reducing the suffering. He just doesn't end it.

Any way you spin he, he sounds like an asshole. Any being who allows unnecessary suffering to continue when it is well within their power to stop it is not worth even a modicum of respect, much less worship.

It does sound like that. But God should be worshipped because he cares for people, even when it doesn't seem that way.

Neanderthaland wrote:
Geneviev wrote:He already does it for people. It's fair to assume that he cares about caterpillars just as much.

Apparently not, since he created a world with parasitic wasps. And could fix that for them at any time. But doesn't.

Romans 8:28 can apply to caterpillars too. I'm not sure how, but God can use suffering.

The New California Republic wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:"Uhm ... Adam? Eve? You realize I can see through those fig leaves, right?" Maybe he was just pissed because they were tearing leaves off the Ficus.

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'

They seemed to succeed in hiding. Where can I find one of these God-impervious trees that obscures his vision?

Or he let them believe that they were succeeding. Or he wanted to give them a chance to come out.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

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Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:49 am

La xinga wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
The same reason Harry Potter and any other work of fiction you care to name is full of mundane details like that: it's a well-known literary technique to help your readers connect to the story.

May I ask you what you think about the Bible? When, Where, Why, and Who?


Written by a whole bunch of people, for a whole bunch of reasons, mostly political, spread out over millennia and thousands of miles.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:50 am

Salandriagado wrote:
La xinga wrote:May I ask you what you think about the Bible? When, Where, Why, and Who?


Written by a whole bunch of people, for a whole bunch of reasons, mostly political, spread out over millennia and thousands of miles.

May I ask how you think people just accepted it?

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
Nuroblav
Minister
 
Posts: 2352
Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nuroblav » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:56 am

La xinga wrote:
Nuroblav wrote:Yes

yes wat

'Yes' as in it's hard to pinpoint to any particular answer to each question. There's a lot in there - different ideas, different stories, different genres.
Your NS mutualist(?), individualist, metalhead and all-round...err...human. TG if you have any questions about my political or musical views.

Economic Left/Right: -4.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03

\m/ METAL IS BASED \m/

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:56 am

La xinga wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Written by a whole bunch of people, for a whole bunch of reasons, mostly political, spread out over millennia and thousands of miles.

May I ask how you think people just accepted it?


Mostly? They didn't until they were forced to, or until it was politically useful for them to use it to control others.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
Battinson
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Aug 31, 2020
Ex-Nation

I think so

Postby Battinson » Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:59 am

I think I like the idea that we were created with reason in mind, that there is something more than this world we live in, and a life after death. So I guess this is less I think so and more I hope so

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:02 am

Salandriagado wrote:
La xinga wrote:May I ask how you think people just accepted it?


Mostly? They didn't until they were forced to, or until it was politically useful for them to use it to control others.

1. Forced to?
2. The peasantry ain't controlling anyone.

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
Estanglia
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Posts: 3858
Founded: Dec 31, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Estanglia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:11 am

La xinga wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Mostly? They didn't until they were forced to, or until it was politically useful for them to use it to control others.

1. Forced to?
2. The peasantry ain't controlling anyone.


For 2., the powerful certainly can.

Say, everyone in your country believes in religion X. In religion X, going against the word of God is a one-way trip to hell.

If you're a royal, you can claim that God chose you to lead your country. Opposing you would therefore be opposing God, and grounds for eternal damnation if you die.

There, religion is politically useful for you to use it to control others. If others believe that religion, and believe that you're speaking the truth when you claim to be chosen by God, you've got total control.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality
Meh: Labour, the EU
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, both American parties, the Conservatives
I flop between "optimistic about the future" and "pessimistic about the future" every time I go on NSG.

(Taken 29/08/2020)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.05

8values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

User avatar
Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22831
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Salandriagado » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:11 am

La xinga wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Mostly? They didn't until they were forced to, or until it was politically useful for them to use it to control others.

1. Forced to?
2. The peasantry ain't controlling anyone.


The peasantry were mostly forced by their rulers.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:12 am

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. Forced to?
2. The peasantry ain't controlling anyone.


For 2., the powerful certainly can.

Say, everyone in your country believes in religion X. In religion X, going against the word of God is a one-way trip to hell.

If you're a royal, you can claim that God chose you to lead your country. Opposing you would therefore be opposing God, and grounds for eternal damnation if you die.

There, religion is politically useful for you to use it to control others. If others believe that religion, and believe that you're speaking the truth when you claim to be chosen by God, you've got total control.

That's still not forcing people to believe in it.

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:12 am

Salandriagado wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. Forced to?
2. The peasantry ain't controlling anyone.


The peasantry were mostly forced by their rulers.

We have no records of that. If something like that happened we probably would.

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

User avatar
Estanglia
Senator
 
Posts: 3858
Founded: Dec 31, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Estanglia » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:14 am

La xinga wrote:
Estanglia wrote:
For 2., the powerful certainly can.

Say, everyone in your country believes in religion X. In religion X, going against the word of God is a one-way trip to hell.

If you're a royal, you can claim that God chose you to lead your country. Opposing you would therefore be opposing God, and grounds for eternal damnation if you die.

There, religion is politically useful for you to use it to control others. If others believe that religion, and believe that you're speaking the truth when you claim to be chosen by God, you've got total control.

That's still not forcing people to believe in it.


Sure, but it is using it to control people, which was Sal's point 2 of why people would follow it.
Yeah: Egalitarianism, equality
Meh: Labour, the EU
Nah: pointless discrimination, authoritarianism, Brexit, Trump, both American parties, the Conservatives
I flop between "optimistic about the future" and "pessimistic about the future" every time I go on NSG.

(Taken 29/08/2020)
Political compass test:
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.05

8values thinks I'm a Libertarian Socialist.

Torrocca wrote:"Your honor, it was not mein fault! I didn't order the systematic genocide of millions of people, it was the twenty kilograms of pure-cut Bavarian cocaine that did it!"

User avatar
La Xinga
Senator
 
Posts: 4637
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:15 am

Estanglia wrote:
La xinga wrote:That's still not forcing people to believe in it.


Sure, but it is using it to control people, which was Sal's point 2 of why people would follow it.

Then how come people ended up believing in it if they had no reason to?

"Oh god he's back, everybody fall back to the trenches, this'll be a bloody one" -Pakitsk
Frisbeeteria wrote:Every post in General is an attempt to rile someone up.

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