Is there a God?

[SHAH-MAT]

Yes, but is it unnecessary?
Did 6 million Jews die in vain?

I don't blame you for not following the entire chain of conversation, but I am limiting this discussion only to parasitic wasps, and their victims. Creatures that have nothing to do with humanity. Whose suffering is irrelevant to human experience. But who suffer anyway.

Now if you think a caterpillar being eaten alive from the inside while a wasp's neurotoxin slowly corrupts it's brain is necessary, I'd like you to show your work.

Well, if there are too many caterpillars, the forest dies.
Solomon makes a good argument. He said somewhere that “everything dies in its time”

[Neanderthaland]

I don't blame you for not following the entire chain of conversation, but I am limiting this discussion only to parasitic wasps, and their victims. Creatures that have nothing to do with humanity. Whose suffering is irrelevant to human experience. But who suffer anyway.

Now if you think a caterpillar being eaten alive from the inside while a wasp's neurotoxin slowly corrupts it's brain is necessary, I'd like you to show your work.

Well, if there are too many caterpillars, the forest dies.
Solomon makes a good argument. He said somewhere that “everything dies in its time”

It is possible to create an entire ecosystem free of predation.

We know this, because ecosystems like this have existed. It seems unlikely that an all-powerful god would be unable to do what nature, by herself, can.

But putting that aside, simply accepting the necessity that caterpillars must die: why is it a requirement that they must die in the most unimaginably horrific way possible? Isn't there any way an all powerful god could arrange for them to die that isn't a combination chestburster/zombie duo?

[The Emerald Legion]

Of course. There's several. Along with a lot of other cosmological beings.

[Katganistan]

It’s not like the rest of the world was doing any better. And again, the past isn’t everything.

Oh yeah let's just forget all that shall we? It's all in the past right? Who cares about, you know, fucking history?

And the World being a more primitive place does not, ever, justify the horrible actions of the Church, or any organization. Not to mention, that the systemic child abuse is an exceedingly recent issue.

It's tough to say it's in the past when there are current lawsuits.

[Sundiata]

Not necessarily, there is much about Christ's life that was documented and much that wasn't.

This has nothing to do with Christ's life. This is an occurrence that every day people with no connection to Christ would have noticed. The Romans would have noticed. The Greeks would have noticed. And everyone would have talked about.

Fortunately for us, we have what we have. Also, literacy was hardly high.

This would be more convincing if Jerusalem wasn't the heart of literate Judaism, and a Roman provincial capital with many literate officials and bureaucrats. It's estimated by Josephus that there were 6000 literate Pharisees in the city at the time. Josephus also compiled a history of the region at the time, and it seems like a very peculiar detail for him to have missed.

I have to correct you briefly. The event you're describing is directly connected to the end of Christ's life and occurred in a nuanced and specific context.

[Geneviev]

He does help people get through it, which is reducing the suffering. He just doesn't end it.

We were talking about caterpillars, remember? Does he help caterpillars "get through it?"

If so, show your work.

He already does it for people. It's fair to assume that he cares about caterpillars just as much.

[The Emerald Legion]

We were talking about caterpillars, remember? Does he help caterpillars "get through it?"

If so, show your work.

He already does it for people. It's fair to assume that he cares about caterpillars just as much.

Or alternatively, the guys who made the world are the kind of people who would find wasps killing Caterpillars hilarious. Odin, Vili, and Ve weren't exactly harmless. Considering they murdered Ysmir for parts to make our universe.

[Neanderthaland]

This has nothing to do with Christ's life. This is an occurrence that every day people with no connection to Christ would have noticed. The Romans would have noticed. The Greeks would have noticed. And everyone would have talked about.


This would be more convincing if Jerusalem wasn't the heart of literate Judaism, and a Roman provincial capital with many literate officials and bureaucrats. It's estimated by Josephus that there were 6000 literate Pharisees in the city at the time. Josephus also compiled a history of the region at the time, and it seems like a very peculiar detail for him to have missed.

I have to correct you briefly. The event you're describing is directly connected to the end of Christ's life and occurred in a nuanced and specific context.

Not from the perspective of most of the witnesses, who would have been unaware of any cause & effect, and would have only seen the dead rising from their graves, and tombs split open all over the city. Which is the point. There's no reason for these people to keep quiet about it. There's no bias that would cause them to do so. And there's plenty of reason to think that someone would have made a note of this.

It's very telling that none of them wrote anything down about it. I mean, not one. Either they were so board with resurrection that they thought this wasn't a noteworthy event, or *gasp* it didn't happen.

Now if you're done trying to evade the point with pedantry. Please concede or explain how that's wrong.

[Jedi Council]

In which case he's just sadistic.

It can seem that way. But he does care for people anyway.

If he does not end unnecessary suffering, then he is not omnibenevolent.

He does help people get through it, which is reducing the suffering. He just doesn't end it.

Any way you spin he, he sounds like an asshole. Any being who allows unnecessary suffering to continue when it is well within their power to stop it is not worth even a modicum of respect, much less worship.

[Neanderthaland]

We were talking about caterpillars, remember? Does he help caterpillars "get through it?"

If so, show your work.

He already does it for people. It's fair to assume that he cares about caterpillars just as much.

Apparently not, since he created a world with parasitic wasps. And could fix that for them at any time. But doesn't.

[The Emerald Legion]

It can seem that way. But he does care for people anyway.


He does help people get through it, which is reducing the suffering. He just doesn't end it.

Any way you spin he, he sounds like an asshole. Any being who allows unnecessary suffering to continue when it is well within their power to stop it is not worth even a modicum of respect, much less worship.

Why? This is a serious question. People do a lot of shit that isn't doing everything in their power to end unnecessary suffering. In fact, people do it so much that people who do GENUINELY do everything in their power to end suffering are considered weird and annoying.

So why would you expect a god to do so?

[Jedi Council]

Any way you spin he, he sounds like an asshole. Any being who allows unnecessary suffering to continue when it is well within their power to stop it is not worth even a modicum of respect, much less worship.

Why? This is a serious question. People do a lot of shit that isn't doing everything in their power to end unnecessary suffering. In fact, people do it so much that people who do GENUINELY do everything in their power to end suffering are considered weird and annoying.

So why would you expect a god to do so?

Human beings are not perfect, nor are they omnipotent, nor omniscient, nor entirely benevolent and all loving. The common conception is that God is considered to be all of these things.

Other Gods, like the Greek Gods, dont have this issue as they do not pretend to be so perfect, and are openly capricious assholes.

[Neanderthaland]

Any way you spin he, he sounds like an asshole. Any being who allows unnecessary suffering to continue when it is well within their power to stop it is not worth even a modicum of respect, much less worship.

Why? This is a serious question. People do a lot of shit that isn't doing everything in their power to end unnecessary suffering. In fact, people do it so much that people who do GENUINELY do everything in their power to end suffering are considered weird and annoying.

So why would you expect a god to do so?

I don't. But if Christians are going to go on about how benevolent and good their god is, then it's fair play to point out that this doesn't seem to match the world we live in.

This isn't a problem if you worship Tezcatlipoca. There are other problems with that, but not this one.

[The Emerald Legion]

Why? This is a serious question. People do a lot of shit that isn't doing everything in their power to end unnecessary suffering. In fact, people do it so much that people who do GENUINELY do everything in their power to end suffering are considered weird and annoying.

So why would you expect a god to do so?

Human beings are not perfect, nor are they omnipotent, nor omniscient, nor entirely benevolent and all loving. The common conception is that God is considered to be all of these things.

I mean, that's specifically one religious group that believes that. Are they the biggest? Certainly, largely on the back of literally murdering all those who opposed them which kind of puts their claims of being the servants of a benevolent god into a rather suspect light.

[Jedi Council]

Human beings are not perfect, nor are they omnipotent, nor omniscient, nor entirely benevolent and all loving. The common conception is that God is considered to be all of these things.

I mean, that's specifically one religious group that believes that. Are they the biggest? Certainly, largely on the back of literally murdering all those who opposed them which kind of puts their claims of being the servants of a benevolent god into a rather suspect light.

Exactly, which is why it's so commonly pointed out. A vast majority of people believe in this kind of a God.

[The Emerald Legion]

I mean, that's specifically one religious group that believes that. Are they the biggest? Certainly, largely on the back of literally murdering all those who opposed them which kind of puts their claims of being the servants of a benevolent god into a rather suspect light.

Exactly, which is why it's so commonly pointed out. A vast majority of people believe in this kind of a God.

Which does not mean that is the only conception of gods.

[Jedi Council]

Exactly, which is why it's so commonly pointed out. A vast majority of people believe in this kind of a God.

Which does not mean that is the only conception of gods.

True, but I never said it was.

[Nuroblav]

But what if you subscribe to another religion, like Buddhism or Hinduism?

Temporary purgatory.

How inclusive

Come on, even if these people were born surrounded by that religion? Religions developed by people who at the time had no idea about Christianity? Simply because we do not find Christianity to be to our liking, or have a different viewpoint.

Yeah, this might be why many don't like religion in the first place?

[New yugoslavaia]

Temporary purgatory.

How inclusive

Come on, even if these people were born surrounded by that religion? Religions developed by people who at the time had no idea about Christianity? Simply because we do not find Christianity to be to our liking, or have a different viewpoint.

Yeah, this might be why many don't like religion in the first place?

1. Surprising to see someone quote a post I made at least 20 pages ago.
2. It's obviously a scare tactic to force people to join the religion.

"Either you follow X or you literally spend the rest of existence in suffering just for having the wrong views!"

[Nuroblav]

1. Surprising to see someone quote a post I made at least 20 pages ago.
2. It's obviously a scare tactic to force people to join the religion.

"Either you follow X or you literally spend the rest of existence in suffering just for having the wrong views!"

I saw someone quote it on the last page, so I must've thought it was quite a recent one

But yeah I take a strong disliking for that sort of thing. I can imagine the kind of impact it would have on someone's mental health - constantly beating yourself up (metaphorically lmao) for not sharing those views. Fear is something that's easy to use to get people on your side; I'm not saying that every religious person does that, because not everyone does, but it does get used.

So yeah, don't.

[UniversalCommons]

The desire to send people to hell and telling them about it is a way to get sent to hell. By thy words thou art condemned. Rather, it is the goal to reform people so they don't go to hell. Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. It the duty of the christian and many other religions to pray for your neighbor so they don't go to the pit and live a just and moral life. The desire to send people to hell is a sin.

[Godular]

Human beings are not perfect, nor are they omnipotent, nor omniscient, nor entirely benevolent and all loving. The common conception is that God is considered to be all of these things.

I mean, that's specifically one religious group that believes that. Are they the biggest? Certainly, largely on the back of literally murdering all those who opposed them which kind of puts their claims of being the servants of a benevolent god into a rather suspect light.

It is important to point out that Geneviev brought the idea that God is somehow a kind and loving and omnipotent deity up (in spite of —and somehow because of— all of the needless suffering in the universe), and we are detailing how such claims are flawed.

Also, in respect to the previous question you asked: God is generally held to the highest standards, is he not? He’s supposed to be perfect, and that to which we should all aspire. God has a way of specifically and effortlessly eliminating all suffering, and he does not do so. In fact, in creating this universe WITH this suffering in it, as an omnipotent being he is rather literally at fault for the presence of such suffering.

Why in the fuck would he deserve worship for that?

[New yugoslavaia]

I mean, that's specifically one religious group that believes that. Are they the biggest? Certainly, largely on the back of literally murdering all those who opposed them which kind of puts their claims of being the servants of a benevolent god into a rather suspect light.

It is important to point out that Geneviev brought the idea that God is somehow a kind and loving and omnipotent deity up (in spite of —and somehow because of— all of the needless suffering in the universe), and we are detailing how such claims are flawed.

Also, in respect to the previous question you asked: God is generally held to the highest standards, is he not? He’s supposed to be perfect, and that to which we should all aspire. God has a way of specifically and effortlessly eliminating all suffering, and he does not do so. In fact, in creating this universe WITH this suffering in it, as an omnipotent being he is rather literally at fault for the presence of such suffering.

Why in the fuck would he deserve worship for that?

Because he doesn't deserve worship.
God should be cast into hell for his crimes against not just humanity and all other creatures on this Earth, but against the universe itself.

[The New California Republic]

And they actually managed to hide from God somehow.

"Uhm ... Adam? Eve? You realize I can see through those fig leaves, right?" Maybe he was just pissed because they were tearing leaves off the Ficus.

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'

They seemed to succeed in hiding. Where can I find one of these God-impervious trees that obscures his vision?

[Insaanistan]

"Uhm ... Adam? Eve? You realize I can see through those fig leaves, right?" Maybe he was just pissed because they were tearing leaves off the Ficus.

Genesis 3:8-9

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, 'Where are you?'

They seemed to succeed in hiding. Where can I find one of these God-impervious trees that obscures his vision?

How can he be God if he cannot see them and does not know where they are? Verily, God is al-Ālim (the all-Knowing) and al-Basir (the all-Seeing).