In defense of Liberal Marxism

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Capitalism also does that, it ensures even more freedom since you can make your own private businesses.

"freedom"

There is no freedom under capitalism, merely a higher place on the plantation.

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

[Grenartia]

The workers aren't the state if there is only one party and no free and fair elections. And even if there were no such thing as political repression in the USSR and its puppets, state ownership of the means of production is vastly different from (arguably inefficient and inferior to) the workers directly owning the MoP.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat wasn't meant to be taken literally (not that the Soviet-aligned dictatorships were ever truly of the proletariat in the first place), and 1984 isn't an instruction manual.

The party will be inseperable from the workers,

Can't do that if most of the workers aren't in the party and also not eligible to join it.

OR the party will be the best and most educated in the party.

A statement which has fundamentally elitist and classist overtones that even you can't deny.

And yes, Russia and the USSR were de facto state capitalists, but that was correct and required

Absolutely false.

for the transition into communism.

It shouldn't fucking take 70 fucking years to 'transition into communism', especially as a totalitarian state. At a certain point, it stops becoming a question of whether the CPSU was too fucking incompetent to transition into communism, and more about whether or not they actually wanted to in the first place.

Russia was still feudal. The MoP needed to be developed properly to allow for communism.

Believe it or not, but it is possible, and even desirable, to completely skip capitalism altogether. You can, in fact, go from feudalism to socialism to communism. And with minimal totalitarian bullshit (i.e., none at all), too!

[Stylan]

Capitalism enforces slavery by perpetuating a system of surplus-value theft and hierarchical control of economies

Maybe where you come from, but I’m for a Scandinavian country, so I can’t agree.

Scandinavian countries are Social Democracies, plus if I am not mistaken, Sweden and the like have low taxes and no minimum wage? Or am I wrong i dont remember lol

[Ravenstva]

Although I’m not a communist that isn’t 100% true, communism in China is working out really well for them, not freedom wise, but you get the point.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Maybe where you come from, but I’m for a Scandinavian country, so I can’t agree.

Happy slaves are still slaves

My point wasn’t that we’re happy here, my point is that things run differently in here than in the US, and that we aren’t slaves, people aren’t slaves in the US neither, people get payed and everyone is happy, at least where I come from, but we also have free healthcare, so we don’t need to worry about that.

[Stylan]

The party will be inseperable from the workers,

Can't do that if most of the workers aren't in the party and also not eligible to join it.

OR the party will be the best and most educated in the party.

A statement which has fundamentally elitist and classist overtones that even you can't deny.

And yes, Russia and the USSR were de facto state capitalists, but that was correct and required

Absolutely false.

for the transition into communism.

It shouldn't fucking take 70 fucking years to 'transition into communism', especially as a totalitarian state. At a certain point, it stops becoming a question of whether the CPSU was too fucking incompetent to transition into communism, and more about whether or not they actually wanted to in the first place.

Russia was still feudal. The MoP needed to be developed properly to allow for communism.

Believe it or not, but it is possible, and even desirable, to completely skip capitalism altogether. You can, in fact, go from feudalism to socialism to communism. And with minimal totalitarian bullshit (i.e., none at all), too!

No you can't, if you are following Marx's theories you will understand it is a complete impossibility to transfer from feudalism to communism. Do you want me to start quoting Marx and Engels at you? lol

And yeah, the USSR literally had a great standard of living, and were a global superpower after being a "Shithole country" for like 300 years.

Perhaps there are classist elements in that, I mean Lenin was a lawyer, so he was wealthier than a lot of Russians, but as long as we aren't bourgeoisie we will be fine.

Now if you mean in the U.S. we can go from capitalism to communism, you may be correct, I have reservations about this though as undoubtedly the world elite would conspire against that, and food production would start to shrink, pensions would dry up etc etc. A brief transition stage is essential, and by brief I mean about 100-200 years.

[Bombadil]

"freedom"

There is no freedom under capitalism, merely a higher place on the plantation.

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Tough call..

..but it's a false dichotomy as if in an argument about whether white leaders or black leaders were better you asked who you'd prefer, Hitler or Obama.

[TRIEADMORE]

There's a guy who decided to give everyone in his company the same salary, including himself, and by doing so managed to give everyone $70K a year from receptionist to executive. Rush Limbaugh said he hoped that company would fail because socialism doesn't work, the company has since grown 10x because everyone feels in it together, equal and valued.

There may be examples of unbridled capitalism driving stronger growth but growth isn't the be all and end all and, frankly, 70K is more than enough for anyone especially if it makes for a pleasant, equally owned, working environment.

It's possible, and probably better.

W-what?

Russian/Chinese bot are you?

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Maybe where you come from, but I’m for a Scandinavian country, so I can’t agree.

Scandinavian countries are Social Democracies, plus if I am not mistaken, Sweden and the like have low taxes and no minimum wage? Or am I wrong i dont remember lol

You’re probably right, but I don’t really like Sweden that much.

[Kowani]

Happy slaves are still slaves

My point wasn’t that we’re happy here, my point is that things run differently in here than in the US, and that we aren’t slaves, people aren’t slaves in the US neither, people get payed and everyone is happy, at least where I come from, but we also have free healthcare, so we don’t need to worry about that.

A slave who cannot see the chains is no less a slave.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Tough call..

..but it's a false dichotomy as if in an argument about whether white leaders or black leaders were better you asked who you'd prefer, Hitler or Obama.

Obama, Hitler was horrible to his people, and no, it isn’t a though call, pretty much all the workers who has experienced communism hates it, either that or they love it due to endless amounts of propaganda.

[Ravenstva]

"freedom"

There is no freedom under capitalism, merely a higher place on the plantation.

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Stalin

[Cisairse]

"freedom"

There is no freedom under capitalism, merely a higher place on the plantation.

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Howabout myself?

[Stylan]

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Stalin

Papa Stalin, as Che would say.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

My point wasn’t that we’re happy here, my point is that things run differently in here than in the US, and that we aren’t slaves, people aren’t slaves in the US neither, people get payed and everyone is happy, at least where I come from, but we also have free healthcare, so we don’t need to worry about that.

A slave who cannot see the chains is no less a slave.

But we get paid, so we aren’t slaves, you get paid, so you aren’t slaves, we have freedom of speech, so we aren’t slaves. What makes you think the workers of a capitalist society is slaves?

[Cisairse]

Maybe where you come from, but I’m for a Scandinavian country, so I can’t agree.

Scandinavian countries are Social Democracies, plus if I am not mistaken, Sweden and the like have low taxes and no minimum wage? Or am I wrong i dont remember lol

Communists should oppose welfare

[Cisairse]

Happy slaves are still slaves

My point wasn’t that we’re happy here, my point is that things run differently in here than in the US, and that we aren’t slaves, people aren’t slaves in the US neither, people get payed and everyone is happy, at least where I come from, but we also have free healthcare, so we don’t need to worry about that.

You're a capitalist society, which means you have enslaved your proletariat.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Howabout myself?

Have you turned into an anarchist now?

Who would you prefer to rule you, Trump or Stalin?

Stalin

You’re dumb and ignorant.

[Stylan]

Scandinavian countries are Social Democracies, plus if I am not mistaken, Sweden and the like have low taxes and no minimum wage? Or am I wrong i dont remember lol

Communists should oppose welfare

Why do you say that?

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

My point wasn’t that we’re happy here, my point is that things run differently in here than in the US, and that we aren’t slaves, people aren’t slaves in the US neither, people get payed and everyone is happy, at least where I come from, but we also have free healthcare, so we don’t need to worry about that.

You're a capitalist society, which means you have enslaved your proletariat.

How, may I ask?

Stalin

Papa Stalin, as Che would say.

Can’t lie, Che is badass.

[Ravenstva]

Stalin

You’re dumb and ignorant.

yeah okay brainlet that thinks china is communist

[Grenartia]

I mean Bernie is like 100 and he likes Castro so

As much as I like Bernie he doesn’t know anything about socialism nor communism, he just says dumb stuff that makes it harder for him to get elected.

Actually, the stuff he says is quite smart. More intelligent than what Trump spews on a daily basis, and even more intelligent than Biden. And shockingly, its made it easier for him to get elected. His only main obstacle to victory is the DNC establishment. Even among working class Republicans, he is well respected, and he has earned that respect without diverging a single iota from progressivism.

What happens when the "vanguard party" refuses to cede its grip on power to make room for actual socialism or communism, and the "brief transition state" becomes a totalitarian regime just as bad as the capitalist regimes it claims to oppose?

something something Stalin tried to step down and the party refused to let him four times something something

Yeah, he probably did it for show and had his goons hold the party's families at gunpoint or something. Just like that time he unpersoned the first man to stop clapping and sit down after he was introduced before a speech.

In case of this actually happening, it would be very good, as the proles could revolt against their vanguard party and establish communism. Anyway that doesn't happen.

Doesn't happen because the party gets addicted to its own fucking power. You cannot squeeze communism or socialism out of fascism, not even red fascism.

Because if Lenin lived 1000+ years with Stalin and co. the USSR would be a full communist state by 2070.

I very much doubt that.

Mao almost reached full communism btw, would you like links on that?

No, because I already know it would be full of shit, just like the sources that say Kim Jong Il golfed a perfect game on his first try. And for the same reasons.

[Stylan]

You're a capitalist society, which means you have enslaved your proletariat.

How, may I ask?

If you are asking how is Scandinavia socialist - one word : IKEA.

If you are asking how capitalism is slavery, is being forced to work or face starvation really a choice?

[Kowani]

A slave who cannot see the chains is no less a slave.

But we get paid, so we aren’t slaves, you get paid, so you aren’t slaves,

I don't know if you realize this, but getting paid isn't the measure of slavery.

we have freedom of speech, so we aren’t slaves.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate."

What makes you think the workers of a capitalist society is slaves?

...Do you want like an entire analysis of the capitalist sytem?

[Cisairse]

Howabout myself?

Have you turned into an anarchist now?

No; my post was meant to be interpreted philosophically, not literally.

In a liberal system, such as that which I espouse, every person is responsible for their own governance by virtue of being involved in decision making, even when their own absolute influence over policy may be small. In this sense, the generic "I" does govern the generic "myself," although via various state apparatus which implement actual policies. In this way, totalitarianism is avoided, but if such a situation arises (such as invasion) to require guidance over productive forces such guidance is available (assuming the populace as a whole would seek self-perpetuation over foreign annexation, which can be safely assumed).