2020 US General Election Thread VIII: Cs, Ds, and Es

[San Lumen]

Do you believe that or not? Why is it so difficult for you to say yes or no?

I just said I don't why is it so hard for you to understand that?

No you didn’t. Saying it in the form of a question is not a definitive yes or no l. I can’t believe I have to debate semantics with you.

[Dresderstan]

I just said I don't why is it so hard for you to understand that?

No you didn’t. Saying it in the form of a question is not a definitive yes or no l. I can’t believe I have to debate semantics with you.

And I can't believe I have to get harassed by you over a belief I don't even hold.

[San Lumen]

No you didn’t. Saying it in the form of a question is not a definitive yes or no l. I can’t believe I have to debate semantics with you.

And I can't believe I have to get harassed by you over a belief I don't even hold.

And you couldn’t just say yes or no. Why was that so hard to admit?

[Dresderstan]

And I can't believe I have to get harassed by you over a belief I don't even hold.

And you couldn’t just say yes or no. Why was that so hard to admit?

I did, saying I don't hold such a belief is the equivalent is the same as saying no. Now stop fucking harassing me about this every single time you bring it up just to harass me and I'm fucking tired of it.

[San Lumen]

And you couldn’t just say yes or no. Why was that so hard to admit?

I did, saying I don't hold such a belief is the equivalent is the same as saying no. Now stop fucking harassing me about this every single time you bring it up just to harass me and I'm fucking tired of it.

Now that we’ve settled this will you admit it’s incredibly obtuse to say Wisconsin democrats should just try harder even though it’s nearly impossible to win the most seats?

Even if they ran a candidate in every seat and republicans did the same it’s highly likely democrats will still get the most votes and not the most seats.

[Dresderstan]

I did, saying I don't hold such a belief is the equivalent is the same as saying no. Now stop fucking harassing me about this every single time you bring it up just to harass me and I'm fucking tired of it.

Now that we’ve settled this will you admit it’s incredibly obtuse to say Wisconsin democrats should just try harder even though it’s nearly impossible to win the most seats?

Even if they ran a candidate in every seat and republicans did the same it’s highly likely democrats will still get the most votes and not the most seats.

No maybe the Democrats should, I don't know try to challenge the map in court as gerrymandering if they can't be bothered to try to win with the current map.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I have a feeling that can't happen. Separation of powers?

Anyone can be fined or jailed for contempt of court.

Sport, when I say "I have a feeling that ..." it doesn't mean "I have absolutely no clue and might as well ask San Lumen"

---

Yeah, 'cause the unifying theme in all of those is hierarchy. Left/right aren't determined by their desire for change or lack thereof, it's about hierarchy vs egalitarianism.

The tricky part comes with ancap, and egoism, since neither specifically support hierarchy (in fact they’re opposed to it) yet are still considered right wing

I consider them right wing, because: in the absence of a strong state, ie one holding a monopoly on the use of force, other groups and individuals will inevitably use force to further their ends. Likely creating another state, with government starting again from scratch ... so probably a monarchy, dictatorship or something even worse that has never been tried because it's so horrible and right-wing.

I judge revolutions, not by their intent but by their outcome. Ancaps and such, get the same treatment.

... either marginalizing or destroying the old government. Alternative power structures rather similar to governments, though perhaps overlapping or interwoven in territory, contend, balance or monopolize the use of force. In the case of monopoly (ie civil war with one winner) what can only emerge is traditional government, and probably in its most robust and violent form: a dictatorship or junta. Which needless to say I consider right-wing. This being the most likely course in my opinion, I consider all brands of ideology dependent on the state giving up monopoly on the use of force, including anarchism even, to be right wing. Not because of their intentions. But because of the likely results.

There are less likely courses though. Contention for power does not necessarily result in a "winner" but could instead create a stable system of communities (not necessarily claiming a territory with borders) that fear to aggress on each other, OR are co-dependent to the extent there is no reason to. In the geographical model, imagine arable land worked by skilled farmers, rocky land worked by skilled miners, and a small area with a few factories with skilled workers. The Industrialists are deliberately hobbled in this scenario, due to the military potential of factories. They do make guns, because everyone in the future loves guns, but they arm the other two tribes just as well as themselves, because it keeps the peace and the farmers and miners pay for the guns. Miners could try to invade farmers, but there's no immediate incentive to, because buying food from them is so much easier than taking their land and trying to become farmers themselves. A key concept here is skill: broadly defined as that quality of a person which determines their earning potential. The skills required to operate a tractor or a tunnel borer or a lathe have to remain high, despite the evident advantages of making machines easier to operate. Without some "hand of hobo" forcing machine interface design to be perversely complex ... oh hell. No robots? Really, what kind of terrible future is this?

Actually, my back hurts. I'm cold and hungry and I think it must be bed-time. I used to think I was a graphic artist, but I wasn't much good. It wasn't until I gave it up that I realized what a toll it was taking on my life. I recovered, and lived a rather sedate but by no means boring life for twenty years or so. Discovered NSG. It was kind of fun. I got addicted to the audience. I started collecting stuff I'd written but not posted. Vague idea I might edit it someday, pick out the good bits and --

Oh fuck. I've turned into a Writer. It's going to kill me.

But the resolution of competing power structures

Being reinvented, some will have innovative structures that aren't terribly authoritarian

[San Lumen]

Now that we’ve settled this will you admit it’s incredibly obtuse to say Wisconsin democrats should just try harder even though it’s nearly impossible to win the most seats?

Even if they ran a candidate in every seat and republicans did the same it’s highly likely democrats will still get the most votes and not the most seats.

No maybe the Democrats should, I don't know try to challenge the map in court as gerrymandering if they can't be bothered to try to win with the current map.

They can’t win under the current map. They have challenged it in court.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Now that we’ve settled this will you admit it’s incredibly obtuse to say Wisconsin democrats should just try harder even though it’s nearly impossible to win the most seats?

Even if they ran a candidate in every seat and republicans did the same it’s highly likely democrats will still get the most votes and not the most seats.

No maybe the Democrats should, I don't know try to challenge the map in court as gerrymandering if they can't be bothered to try to win with the current map.

Improving their election results by 20 points is a hell of a lot more effort (and time) than going to court.

The latter isn't likely to work though, so I guess they should do both!

Goodnight all!

[Shrillland]

In referendum news, Arkansas' Issue 6(the veto measure that would re-ban optometrists from performing certain surgeries) was struck from the ballot after the State Supreme Court ruled that the measure's canvassers had only obtained rather than passed criminal background checks for its signature gatherers: https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2020/09/17/supreme-court-disqualifies-referendum-on-eye-surgery-law

[Cannot think of a name]

In referendum news, Arkansas' Issue 6(the veto measure that would re-ban optometrists from performing certain surgeries) was struck from the ballot after the State Supreme Court ruled that the measure's canvassers had only obtained rather than passed criminal background checks for its signature gatherers: https://arktimes.com/arkansas-blog/2020/09/17/supreme-court-disqualifies-referendum-on-eye-surgery-law

What a weird requirement.

[San Lumen]

https://www.ajc.com/politics/politics-b ... WGBRDYPHI/

University of Georgia will allow on campus early voting after initially rejecting it.

[San Lumen]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Former Pence aide Olivia Troye says she will vote for Biden due to Trumps horrible response and overall terrible leadership qualities.

[Zapato]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/olivia-troye-coronavirus-white-house/2020/09/17/d3f67ede-f8ed-11ea-a510-f57d8ce76e11_story.html

Former Pence aide Olivia Troye says she will vote for Biden due to Trumps horrible response and overall terrible leadership qualities.

The video she made is though to watch.

[Katganistan]

Monarchists are gay. I want a Communist Dictatorship

*** Baiting Monarchists and gay people at the same time by suggesting being gay is a bad thing. ***

A good green is a dead one. I'm definitely voting SA Labor as the current leader wants Nuclear Power implemented

*** Wishing death on a group ***

And since you had a recent 3 week ban for trolling, we're escalating this to deletion since clearly you're not getting the point.

*** DEAT for baiting and trolling, combined with history across two nations and recent three week ban for trolling ***

[Aureumterra]

This tbh

In fact, I think this year has provided the ultimate proof that nationalists are absolute dogshit at leading countries in times of crisis, because they are so ideologically incapable of even entertaining the idea that their country and government might be in any way vulnerable or deficient that they'll just try to ignore the problem until it passes.

It would break the façade of strength. Nationalism isn’t an ideology, it’s a theatre production.

Nationalism is my foremost criteria for any voter when picking a democratically elected leader. In elections here when there has been a Europhilic rightist against a nationalist leftist, I always vote for the latter.

In the end I guess it all comes down to individual values

[Major-Tom]

It would break the façade of strength. Nationalism isn’t an ideology, it’s a theatre production.

Nationalism is my foremost criteria for any voter when picking a democratically elected leader. In elections here when there has been a Europhilic rightist against a nationalist leftist, I always vote for the latter.

In the end I guess it all comes down to individual values

I can't speak for Iceland, but rigorous nationalism has torn my country apart. From polarizing and pitting people against each other all under the guise of "who is a patriot and who is a seditionist." It's ruined families, social relationships, and the fabric of the otherwise unified state we've had in the past.

I'm fine with civic nationalism, the type that says "love your neighbor, regardless of who they are, what they look like, and what values they espouse." But that is not the type of nationalism being promoted in my country, or in many countries abroad. And I feel it's important to make that distinction.

[San Lumen]

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-clos ... ws-1532758

A new poll of Virginia’s fifth district has Dr Cameron Webb tied with his Republican opponent. Trump won this district by eleven points in 2016. If elected Dr. Webb would be the first black doctor in Congress.

[Sundiata]

People are too obsessed with labels today that they lose sight of what works.

But how do we know what works unless we use a particular word to refer to the working system? Almost like a label, of sorts?

Labels are fine, just not at the expense of clarity.

[Cisairse]

"Ending your presidential campaign after losing several primaries" is, generally, referred to as "losing,"

Yes but he didn't;t officially lose the primary. He dropped out. There is a difference.

He literally did lose every primary he ran in. He lost the election.

Would you say that Bernie Sanders "did not lose" the 2020 primary because he dropped out?

[Cannot think of a name]

Yes but he didn't;t officially lose the primary. He dropped out. There is a difference.

He literally did lose every primary he ran in. He lost the election.

Would you say that Bernie Sanders "did not lose" the 2020 primary because he dropped out?

He technically didn't drop out, he suspended his campaign. I get your point but you chose the wrong example.

[Aureumterra]

Nationalism is my foremost criteria for any voter when picking a democratically elected leader. In elections here when there has been a Europhilic rightist against a nationalist leftist, I always vote for the latter.

In the end I guess it all comes down to individual values

I can't speak for Iceland, but rigorous nationalism has torn my country apart. From polarizing and pitting people against each other all under the guise of "who is a patriot and who is a seditionist." It's ruined families, social relationships, and the fabric of the otherwise unified state we've had in the past.

I'm fine with civic nationalism, the type that says "love your neighbor, regardless of who they are, what they look like, and what values they espouse." But that is not the type of nationalism being promoted in my country, or in many countries abroad. And I feel it's important to make that distinction.

Oh no, in the context of politics here, it’s between nationalists and Europhiles, the racists are their own little group no one really cares about, who preach the word of Odin and all that

No one really cares about left and right, in sharp contrast to what Ive seen of American politics where everything is left or right, and race is brought into every topic

Then again, "left and right" was used to describe the French legislature 200 years ago and makes no sense today for reasons I have mentioned over and over again

[Major-Tom]

I can't speak for Iceland, but rigorous nationalism has torn my country apart. From polarizing and pitting people against each other all under the guise of "who is a patriot and who is a seditionist." It's ruined families, social relationships, and the fabric of the otherwise unified state we've had in the past.

I'm fine with civic nationalism, the type that says "love your neighbor, regardless of who they are, what they look like, and what values they espouse." But that is not the type of nationalism being promoted in my country, or in many countries abroad. And I feel it's important to make that distinction.

Oh no, in the context of politics here, it’s between nationalists and Europhiles, the racists are their own little group no one really cares about, who preach the word of Odin and all that

No one really cares about left and right, in sharp contrast to what Ive seen of American politics where everything is left or right, and race is brought into every topic

Then again, "left and right" was used to describe the French legislature 200 years ago and makes no sense today for reasons I have mentioned over and over again

I'l give you credit here, the distinctions between left and right are still existent but starkly different than what they were in the past, very true. In Iceland's case, if you made a thread about the political dynamics there, that would definitely be a fantastic thread, I just don't wanna derail the 2020 thread (because I admittedly have a bad habit of doing so).

[Washington Resistance Army]

Nationalism is my foremost criteria for any voter when picking a democratically elected leader. In elections here when there has been a Europhilic rightist against a nationalist leftist, I always vote for the latter.

In the end I guess it all comes down to individual values

I can't speak for Iceland, but rigorous nationalism has torn my country apart. From polarizing and pitting people against each other all under the guise of "who is a patriot and who is a seditionist." It's ruined families, social relationships, and the fabric of the otherwise unified state we've had in the past.

I'm fine with civic nationalism, the type that says "love your neighbor, regardless of who they are, what they look like, and what values they espouse." But that is not the type of nationalism being promoted in my country, or in many countries abroad. And I feel it's important to make that distinction.

Given American nationalism didn't really become a mainstream thing until a few years ago I'm doubtful of that claim.

What tore this country apart was a lack of anything to be united over and a complete and total breakdown of the fabric of society, the reasonings of which go back quite a long time.

[San Lumen]

Yes but he didn't;t officially lose the primary. He dropped out. There is a difference.

He literally did lose every primary he ran in. He lost the election.

Would you say that Bernie Sanders "did not lose" the 2020 primary because he dropped out?

That is not true. He won New Hampshire. He did not lose the primary as he withdrew. It’s highly possible he would have become the first incumbent president to lose a primary but since he did not run for re-election you cannot say he lost.