NationStates

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:23 am**

Purpelia wrote:I went to school. If you think teachers have authority, or hell that teachers are for the most part not the weak and pointless underbelly of the professional world than you are wrong. I mean sure, you get the occasional snowflake that is there voluntarily. But for the most part he who does not know teaches is very much true. And teaching jobs are where dreams of professional success come to die.

Plenty of teachers post on NS, so consider yourself *** warned for trolling ***

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:35 am**

I'm sure there's plenty of Republicans and Policemen as well.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:43 pm**

Purpelia wrote:Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.

You have that positively bass ackwards, dude. Because, in the vast majority of instances that I have personally seen (and I have seen many over the past few years), it's not one guy. It's a bunch of people. So what happens is instead of the bunch getting punished individually, they punish at least twice as many innocents. And you know what that creates? More people doing the bad things, more people who hate school, just constant strife and discontentment. Because the rules should not be arbitrary, and collective punishment is the most arbitrary application of the rules-- punishing a bunch of innocents because they happened to exist in the same space as some rulebreakers. That's not justice. That's power tripping. And we don't get pissed at those guys, because they don't care, we get pissed at the teachers, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER. If you know who the rulebreakers are, punish them individually. Good lord.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:47 pm**

Serrus wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.

You have that positively bass ackwards, dude. Because, in the vast majority of instances that I have personally seen (and I have seen many over the past few years), it's not one guy. It's a bunch of people. So what happens is instead of the bunch getting punished individually, they punish at least twice as many innocents. And you know what that creates? More people doing the bad things, more people who hate school, just constant strife and discontentment. Because the rules should not be arbitrary, and collective punishment is the most arbitrary application of the rules-- punishing a bunch of innocents because they happened to exist in the same space as some rulebreakers. That's not justice. That's power tripping. And we don't get pissed at those guys, because they don't care, we get pissed at the teachers, BECAUSE THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER. If you know who the rulebreakers are, punish them individually. Good lord.

I agree. And admit that my post was unclear on that, which is my mistake. I clarified that later in my response to another person.
In hindsight my post should have read "The only time collective punishment works" as opposed to "Collective punishment works because". That would have made the intention more clear.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:51 pm**

Geneviev wrote:
Purpelia wrote:I went to school. If you think teachers have authority, or hell that teachers are for the most part not the weak and pointless underbelly of the professional world than you are wrong. I mean sure, you get the occasional snowflake that is there voluntarily. But for the most part he who does not know teaches is very much true. And teaching jobs are where dreams of professional success come to die.

I still go to school, and that's not true. Every one of my teachers are excellent, they are there voluntarily, they know their subjects, and they are anything but weak. So teachers definitely have authority. I don't know where they don't.

You obviously dont live in America.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:51 pm**

The only time collective punishment is appropriate is if you don't know who broke the rule and noone will speak up.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:59 pm**

The Emerald Legion wrote:The only time collective punishment is appropriate is if you don't know who broke the rule and noone will speak up.

I would say it has a place in the military if the entire point is to try to strip away individuality and have recruits act as one team of conformity. Anyone going into boot camp should expect the possibility that if someone else screws up that everyone else in the barracks along with them might do more exercise and etc. as punishment until they're all squared away.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:04 pm**

Dollystana wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I still go to school, and that's not true. Every one of my teachers are excellent, they are there voluntarily, they know their subjects, and they are anything but weak. So teachers definitely have authority. I don't know where they don't.

You obviously dont live in America.

Pretty sure Gen is living in America. Either way, one bad in school in Florida (basically another country

) doesn’t mean all American schools are lacking.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:59 pm**

Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:56 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

Bodycam footage of the arrest.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:00 pm**

Dollystana wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I still go to school, and that's not true. Every one of my teachers are excellent, they are there voluntarily, they know their subjects, and they are anything but weak. So teachers definitely have authority. I don't know where they don't.

You obviously dont live in America.

Or takes higher-level courses like AP. In regular classes it feels like a morgue, from my experience, both parties are just there to do a job and leave. Totally different in advanced courses. People there care about what they're doing, both the teachers and the students.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:10 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boy-police-arrest-special-needs-arrest-jail-handcuff-florida-a9664896.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officers-arrest-try-handcuff-8-year-old-disabilities-video/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/11/ben-crump-files-lawsuit-after-florida-cops-handcuff-boy-school/3343410001/

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:18 pm**

Kowani wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

Bodycam footage of the arrest.

thanks, it didn't load but the other posters items did. But I appreciate the effort.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:22 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

Posted two different ones upthread, Ethel.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:22 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boy-police-arrest-special-needs-arrest-jail-handcuff-florida-a9664896.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officers-arrest-try-handcuff-8-year-old-disabilities-video/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/11/ben-crump-files-lawsuit-after-florida-cops-handcuff-boy-school/3343410001/

a special needs kid?

Second thanks for the articles.

A special needs kid?
I have all sorts of questions as to what his disability was, did he have a behavior plan in place, and was that followed? Was calling the cops part of his IEP?

On the bright side, after the lawsuit the kid will have the funds to get the treatments he needs.

My problem isn't necessarily with the cops, it is with the school.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:24 pm**

Katganistan wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Are there any sources aside from a YouTube video on this?

Posted two different ones upthread, Ethel.

I did see what the folks posted, and I do appreciate it.

Was calling the cops part of his iep?

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:27 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/boy-police-arrest-special-needs-arrest-jail-handcuff-florida-a9664896.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/officers-arrest-try-handcuff-8-year-old-disabilities-video/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/08/11/ben-crump-files-lawsuit-after-florida-cops-handcuff-boy-school/3343410001/

a special needs kid?

Second thanks for the articles.

A special needs kid?
I have all sorts of questions as to what his disability was, did he have a behavior plan in place, and was that followed? Was calling the cops part of his IEP?

From the USA Today link:

On the day of the incident, the child was placed with "a substitute teacher who had no awareness or concern about his needs and who escalated the situation by using her hands to forcibly move him," Crump said in his statement. The child has been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, anxiety and severe Oppositional Defiance Disorder , and he has an an individualized education plan in place at the school, Crump said.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:29 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:a special needs kid?

Second thanks for the articles.

A special needs kid?
I have all sorts of questions as to what his disability was, did he have a behavior plan in place, and was that followed? Was calling the cops part of his IEP?

From the USA Today link:
On the day of the incident, the child was placed with "a substitute teacher who had no awareness or concern about his needs and who escalated the situation by using her hands to forcibly move him," Crump said in his statement. The child has been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, anxiety and severe Oppositional Defiance Disorder , and he has an an individualized education plan in place at the school, Crump said.

He has depression and anxiety at age 8?

Jeez, poor kid got it even earlier than we did. What's it gonna be like for him at 17?

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:41 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:a special needs kid?

Second thanks for the articles.

A special needs kid?
I have all sorts of questions as to what his disability was, did he have a behavior plan in place, and was that followed? Was calling the cops part of his IEP?

From the USA Today link:
On the day of the incident, the child was placed with "a substitute teacher who had no awareness or concern about his needs and who escalated the situation by using her hands to forcibly move him," Crump said in his statement. The child has been diagnosed with ADHD, depression, anxiety and severe Oppositional Defiance Disorder , and he has an an individualized education plan in place at the school, Crump said.

So thr school placed him in a classroom with an unprepared and unqualified teacher. Then called the cops when that didn't work out?

For some reason this song popped into my head.

Well the next thing you know old jeb is a millionaire, kin folks say, you got to move away from there
California is the place you want to be
so he loaded up the truck and moved to beverly....
Hills that is,...swimming pools, movie stars....

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:17 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Posted two different ones upthread, Ethel.

I did see what the folks posted, and I do appreciate it.

Was calling the cops part of his iep?

Nope. In fact, the sub was ignorant of or ignored his IEP.
That's a federal law that was broken.
The parents will probably have a good case for their suit.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:31 pm**

Katganistan wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I did see what the folks posted, and I do appreciate it.

Was calling the cops part of his iep?

Nope. In fact, the sub was ignorant of or ignored his IEP.
That's a federal law that was broken.
The parents will probably have a good case for their suit.

The only problem i have with the article is this ain't on the cops.

This is on the school, from the teacher through at least the principal if not the whole district (if it was a public school) The sub was untrained for the classroom, the district didn't inform the sub of the kids with IEP's. The principal knowing the kid thought calling the cops was the way to go?

A few people are going go lose their jobs, and Kid's going to be a millionaire. I don't have a problem with that.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:23 pm**

Dollystana wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I still go to school, and that's not true. Every one of my teachers are excellent, they are there voluntarily, they know their subjects, and they are anything but weak. So teachers definitely have authority. I don't know where they don't.

You obviously dont live in America.

Yes, I really do. It's a great country, with great teachers.

Outer Acharet wrote:
Dollystana wrote:You obviously dont live in America.

Or takes higher-level courses like AP. In regular classes it feels like a morgue, from my experience, both parties are just there to do a job and leave. Totally different in advanced courses. People there care about what they're doing, both the teachers and the students.

It's not just the advanced courses, either. Teachers just are great.

Either way, I don't think there is any situation where teachers need to be physical to control their classrooms.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:32 pm**

Ethel mermania wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Nope. In fact, the sub was ignorant of or ignored his IEP.
That's a federal law that was broken.
The parents will probably have a good case for their suit.

The only problem i have with the article is this ain't on the cops.

This is on the school, from the teacher through at least the principal if not the whole district (if it was a public school) The sub was untrained for the classroom, the district didn't inform the sub of the kids with IEP's. The principal knowing the kid thought calling the cops was the way to go?

A few people are going go lose their jobs, and Kid's going to be a millionaire. I don't have a problem with that.

Millions less spent on the education of the other students in that school. Hardly a good outcome, compared to the temp teacher being properly briefed by the school and the incident never happening ...

The teacher probably can't pay much, so it will mostly come out of the school's hide (and school district?)

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:41 pm**

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:The only problem i have with the article is this ain't on the cops.

This is on the school, from the teacher through at least the principal if not the whole district (if it was a public school) The sub was untrained for the classroom, the district didn't inform the sub of the kids with IEP's. The principal knowing the kid thought calling the cops was the way to go?

A few people are going go lose their jobs, and Kid's going to be a millionaire. I don't have a problem with that.

Millions less spent on the education of the other students in that school. Hardly a good outcome, compared to the temp teacher being properly briefed by the school and the incident never happening ...

The teacher probably can't pay much, so it will mostly come out of the school's hide (and school district?)

True, the ideal would have been for the teacher to have been properly briefed (or, if she was, to have paid attention to the information she was given), for the teacher to have behaved properly and not attempted to move the child by force (and all because she didn't like how she was sitting), for the school administration to have refused to allow the police to be called, and for the police to refuse to come and arrest the small child.

But they did. There was a whole cavalcade of cockups, culminating in a vulnerable child being traumatised.

At the very least, there needs to be a thorough, independent investigation into the school, and the child should have some redress for his experience.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:08 pm**

This is my prospective on the situation. That child should know that punching a teacher is 'not normal' behavior regardless of what he may have but I agree that the punishment is excessive and disproportionate, while emphasizing that a punishment is required.

NationStates

8 year old arrested for battery for punching a teacher