8 year old arrested for battery for punching a teacher

[Necroghastia]

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

"Laughed at behind their back" doesn't preclude authority. In fact, it kind of necessitates it, because why do it "behind their back" if you aren't afraid of consequences?
Anyway, there's plenty of teachers who do have respect from students, so what world do YOU live in?
oh, right, the one where self-defense isn't valid because you don't want to even think about why things happen

[The Emerald Legion]

So you use force. First to remove the student from the group in order to have your talk. Then if they violate your request, you have to physically detain them.

Nope. No matter how much you might wish to hear that kids are dragged out physically, it's not necessary.

Most kids don't want to go to school. Troubled kids of the kind I'm talking about even less so.

However the general principles are still true and I've observed them in action. Fail to enforce punishments physically and they will just ignore them.

[State of Turelisa]

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

"Laughed at behind their back" doesn't preclude authority. In fact, it kind of necessitates it, because why do it "behind their back" if you aren't afraid of consequences?
Anyway, there's plenty of teachers who do have respect from students, so what world do YOU live in?
oh, right, the one where self-defense isn't valid because you don't want to even think about why things happen

I've seen teachers derided with mocking laughter, sworn at, struck, and generally treated with contempt. That's because we put people who not only can't be educated but don't want to be educated into learning environments where we expect them to learn, and we do it in the name of egalitarianism. The teacher is bound to be the focus of their truculent resistance.

[Ors Might]

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

I live in a world where the authority of my teachers was respected enough to when they threatened to call the office and our parents if we kept acting like shitheads, we knew they weren’t fucking around. What world do you live in where teachers are so incompetent and undisciplined that they can’t handle a special needs kid without grabbing them?

[The Emerald Legion]

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

I live in a world where the authority of my teachers was respected enough to when they threatened to call the office and our parents if we kept acting like shitheads, we knew they weren’t fucking around. What world do you live in where teachers are so incompetent and undisciplined that they can’t handle a special needs kid without grabbing them?

A poor area where kids don't give a shit what the office or their parents think?

[Dazchan]

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

I’m a teacher. I’ve been teaching for 14 years. I was a volunteer teachers aide, student teacher and volunteer youth worker prior to that. I have never once, in the course of any of those roles, needed to use physical force to maintain control and discipline with the children I’ve been working with.
You’re literally calling for us to have a tool that we don’t want or need, claiming that it will help us do our job, despite evidence that it will have the opposite effect. I’m not the first teacher in this thread to tell you that. This is a good example of the major problem in education today - teachers are ignored in favour of armchair experts.

[Ghost Land]

Teachers have a duty toward all of their students, and part of that duty is creating a classroom culture the students like being in. I don't consider administering discipline to be "coddling". If a student is being disruptive, and it's not something simple like "get your math book out" or "quit talking" that can be dealt with publicly with one sentence, the teacher should pull the offending student aside, into a back closet or the hallway, and give an explanation. For example, "Your continued talking while I'm trying to teach is disruptive both to me and to your classmates. Nobody else can focus when you're constantly blurting out and trying to converse with your neighbours. If you would like to say something related to the topic at hand, raise your hand and I'll call on you; otherwise, it can wait until later. If I continue hearing your voice when your mouth isn't supposed to be running, you'll have to stay behind with me in detention for 30 minutes after school." If little Joey continues running his mouth while class is supposed to be going on, he gets the detention, no questions asked.

And how exactly does that fix the immediate problem of the class being disrupted?

To be honest, when it comes to bullies and other disruptive children I would have no problem with just removing them from education altogether. Everyone deserves a chance and they had theirs.

How does telling him to stop talking in my example fix the problem, that is? Well, how would whacking or arresting him fix the problem?

To address your second sentence, I was an immature little s**t when I was in elementary school; most of us were at some point or another, and I know I wouldn't have wanted to be expelled just for throwing tantrums a lot. For some kids, social cues don't come as naturally as to others, so they might not even know they're being disruptive or hurting others' feelings.

Collective punishment is really almost never effective, especially considering that most young children think mostly about themselves due to their developmental status. If Brian, Timmy, and Joey are causing a ruckus in the back of the room, and I'm up at the front minding my own business and I too get punished and forced to sit there with my head down for what would have been my recess, darn right I'd be ticked. Brian, Timmy, and Joey can sit there and watch the teacher grade papers, but the other 23 of us deserve to be able to run around and play because we didn't do anything wrong. Being made to feel bad about the wrongdoings of OTHER PEOPLE is a good way to breed resentment.

Well i for one do not think that it is a good idea to encourage child vigilantism.

How are you getting that from what I said?

[Purpelia]

How does telling him to stop talking in my example fix the problem, that is? Well, how would whacking or arresting him fix the problem?

If the problem maker is physically removed from the other children he can no longer bother them.

To address your second sentence, I was an immature little s**t when I was in elementary school; most of us were at some point or another, and I know I wouldn't have wanted to be expelled just for throwing tantrums a lot. For some kids, social cues don't come as naturally as to others, so they might not even know they're being disruptive or hurting others' feelings.

The one and only social clue that they need to figure out as far as I am concerned is how to sit down, shut up and do as they are told. If they can't figure that one out than they will newer succeed in life anyway.

How are you getting that from what I said?

Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.

"Laughed at behind their back" doesn't preclude authority. In fact, it kind of necessitates it, because why do it "behind their back" if you aren't afraid of consequences?
Anyway, there's plenty of teachers who do have respect from students, so what world do YOU live in?
oh, right, the one where self-defense isn't valid because you don't want to even think about why things happen

Fear does not equal authority. The two might produce similar looking results on the surface but where as one breeds education and good training the other breeds temporary obedience and resentment which leads to rebellion.

[Salandriagado]

Anybody who needs to rely on physical force to enforce discipline is fucking shit at enforcing discipline.

Please explain how you can enforce discipline with no physical force?

By raw force of personality and applying rules consistently, mostly. There are other methods, but that one works pretty well.

[Salandriagado]

It's fucking easy
No you do not physically detain them, fuck lets send all the kids to jail for misbehaving instead.

So, without physically detaining them, how do you keep the child in detention when they can just walk away?

You apply further consequences, according to your behaviour policy.

[Salandriagado]

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

Then you keep escalating up to "you're expelled, now you're not our problem".

[Salandriagado]

Completely correct. But what people are objecting to is the needless application of force, particularly in cases where it only makes the situation worse. Needless use of physical force, ironically in this case, demonstrates a lack of self-discipline and reflects badly upon the authority allowing it.

No they are not. People are quite literally saying that just grabbing the child is assault and battery and that therefore it had the "right" to strike back. And than they further go on to equate grabbing it to beating it.

If I run up and grab you and you hit me to get me off, no court will convict you, and a fair few will convict me.

[Salandriagado]

Laying your hands on a child for merely not going where you tell them to indicates an utter inability to command authority and competently handle difficult situations. I’m no parent but if I had a child, I would much prefer that they retaliate against adults thinking they can manhandle my kid whenever they want rather than my child simply going along with whatever adult decides to grab them.

I am not sure what world you live in where teachers have any sort of authority. They are at best laughed at behind their back. At best.
You have to give people the tools they need to do their job with the skills they do have, not the ones most humans don't.

This is simply untrue. Kindly stop talking about things that you clearly know nothing about.

[Salandriagado]

I live in a world where the authority of my teachers was respected enough to when they threatened to call the office and our parents if we kept acting like shitheads, we knew they weren’t fucking around. What world do you live in where teachers are so incompetent and undisciplined that they can’t handle a special needs kid without grabbing them?

A poor area where kids don't give a shit what the office or their parents think?

Schools all over the world deal with such children without resorting to physical force all the time. It's really not that hard to outsmart them.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

No they wont just walk out, and if they do up the punishment, if you need to resort to violence then your problem not them.
(Or just handcuff 4 year olds to the table when they dont listen.)

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

And your solution is what? Beating on kids?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

By the way, the people talking about "what if the kid doesn't listen to verbal commands" do know that at a certain age there's a potential for the kid to physically harm the teacher right? Everyone keeps using the inner city as an example of students who won't listen to commands but i think the video of a Detroit highschooler body slamming a security guard proves that physical force won't work as well as you expect.

[Necroghastia]

How does telling him to stop talking in my example fix the problem, that is? Well, how would whacking or arresting him fix the problem?

If the problem maker is physically removed from the other children he can no longer bother them.

Where is the evidence that the child in this incident was bothering other students? As has been pointed out, this was during lunch and the substitute was fussing over how he was sitting.

To address your second sentence, I was an immature little s**t when I was in elementary school; most of us were at some point or another, and I know I wouldn't have wanted to be expelled just for throwing tantrums a lot. For some kids, social cues don't come as naturally as to others, so they might not even know they're being disruptive or hurting others' feelings.

The one and only social clue that they need to figure out as far as I am concerned is how to sit down, shut up and do as they are told. If they can't figure that one out than they will newer succeed in life anyway.

They shouldn't learn empathy? Regard for others? The fuck?
Blind submission to authority with no regard for if it is right or wrong will tooootally bring success though. No way it'll just make a mindless drone.

How are you getting that from what I said?

Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.

In my experience, it only caused ill will towards the one who decided that everyone should be punished for what one person did, because that's not fair.
And I can already see the argument that "LiFe'S nOt FaIr" coming, to which I say: So what? Doesn't mean we can't do our best to make things fair.

"Laughed at behind their back" doesn't preclude authority. In fact, it kind of necessitates it, because why do it "behind their back" if you aren't afraid of consequences?
Anyway, there's plenty of teachers who do have respect from students, so what world do YOU live in?
oh, right, the one where self-defense isn't valid because you don't want to even think about why things happen

Fear does not equal authority. The two might produce similar looking results on the surface but where as one breeds education and good training the other breeds temporary obedience and resentment which leads to rebellion.

And what you are advocating for is fear. Not authority derived from respect and good reasoning, but punishing people with no regard for circumstances or their own well-being. Plain and simple classic fear tactics. Disgusting.

[Celestiam]

It is fascinating to hear people argue that 8 year olds should face criminal liability, have the state of mind of an adult, and should be punished as such.

These very same people usually oppose the lowering of the voting age, or the lowering of the drinking age, and aren't so quick to claim children have any capacity to be responsible when the question shifts from restricting freedoms to awarding them.

Go figure.

[The Emerald Legion]

Except they will. I've literally observed this in practice. And up the punishment how? You can't punish them to begin with.

"Get in this corner because I say so!"

"No."

"Get in the corner right now or you will have to stay in it for 10 minutes instead of 5!"

"Or I could just not listen and spend 0."

Then you keep escalating up to "you're expelled, now you're not our problem".

To which they say "No." Again. And as you cannot physically prevent them from doing so, they return to school.

Expulsion has no weight without the ability to physically enforce it.

[North American Imperial State]

Then you keep escalating up to "you're expelled, now you're not our problem".

To which they say "No." Again. And as you cannot physically prevent them from doing so, they return to school.

Expulsion has no weight without the ability to physically enforce it.

What is it with you obsession with physical discipline.
We don't need to use it.

[The Emerald Legion]

To which they say "No." Again. And as you cannot physically prevent them from doing so, they return to school.

Expulsion has no weight without the ability to physically enforce it.

What is it with you obsession with physical discipline.
We don't need to use it.

What is your obsession with insisting any form of physical assertion of control is abuse?

[Ors Might]

I would like to add that simply removing someone from the premises who doesn’t have the right to be there isn’t quite the same thing as disciplining a student with special needs.

[North American Imperial State]

What is it with you obsession with physical discipline.
We don't need to use it.

What is your obsession with insisting any form of physical assertion of control is abuse?

You do not need to use any type of physical assertion on any child, including slapping on hangcuffs.

[The Emerald Legion]

What is your obsession with insisting any form of physical assertion of control is abuse?

You do not need to use any type of physical assertion on any child, including slapping on hangcuffs.

You're simply incorrect.

[Ghost Land]

How does telling him to stop talking in my example fix the problem, that is? Well, how would whacking or arresting him fix the problem?

If the problem maker is physically removed from the other children he can no longer bother them.

That can also be accomplished by sending the problematic child out in the hallway or to the principal's office for the time being.

How are you getting that from what I said?

Collective punishment works because it makes all the others in the collective collectively pissed at the guy that's guilty to the point where they than bully him into line.

That is literally vigilante-justice-style bullying, and that's another reason AGAINST collective punishment. Do you want kids to be, as you even admit, "bullying" each other for any reason?