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The tragedy of US President Lyndon Baines Johnson

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

What do you think of LBJ?

1: He was one of the best
13
12%
2: He's above average
35
32%
3: Mediocre to below average
34
31%
4: One of the worst
20
19%
5: Never heard of him
6
6%
 
Total votes : 108

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Asardia
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The tragedy of US President Lyndon Baines Johnson

Postby Asardia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:50 pm

Is he one of America's most unknown presidents?

On November 22, 1963, Lyndon Baines Johnson (commonly called LBJ) was inaugurated after JFK's assassination. His presidency was the time of massive change in American society. Civil rights, health care, poverty, and perhaps the most infamous of all, Vietnam. It is my belief that one of the America's best, and arguably one of the worst presidents, is forgotten to the public. LBJ ran the nation after the last president to be assassinated, and the first to resign. In the chaos of post 1963, it's easy to forget this man, but I believe his legacy is too important for that.

Lyndon Johnson strongly believed in the Great Society, a grand plan for the massive transformation and improvement in the lives of the average American. His accomplishments in this field is astounding to me. But then Vietnam happened. He plunged the nation into a brutal war of attrition in a far away land most people never even knew existed. And this is my point right here: The Vietnam War overshadowed LBJ's presidency. Whatever he did on the legislative front was always overshadowed by Vietnam, and the Civil Rights Movement as a whole.

Here's a list of the significant legislation passed during his tenure:
1963: Clean Air Act of 1963
1963: Higher Education Facilities Act of 1963
1963: Vocational Education Act of 1963
1964: Civil Rights Act of 1964
1964: Urban Mass Transportation Act of 1964
1964: Wilderness Act
1964: Nurse Training Act of 1964[292]
1964: Food Stamp Act of 1964
1964: Economic Opportunity Act

1964: Housing Act of 1964
1965: Higher Education Act of 1965
1965: Older Americans Act
1965: Coinage Act of 1965
1965: Social Security Act of 1965
1965: Voting Rights Act of 1965
1965: Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965

1966: Animal Welfare Act of 1966
1966: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
1967: Age Discrimination in Employment Act
1967: Public Broadcasting Act of 1967
1968: Architectural Barriers Act of 1968
1968: Bilingual Education Act
1968: Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act)
1968: Gun Control Act of 1968


Among the most important are all the Civil Rights laws plus the Food Stamp Act, 1965 Immigration Reform Act (which overturned decades of racist immigration policies) and the Freedom of Information Act.

On the other front, he quickly expanded operations in Vietnam, leading to 543,000 American troops fighting in Vietnam in 1968. Then you have the cultural phenomenons of the 1960s: The counter-culture movement/hippies, increase in drug usage, and (what at the time) was called the "ghetto riots". All of these presented so many challenges to a conservative society. Hippies and drug users aimed for a more liberal society, while the disastrous series of riots in the 60s destroyed many black and impoverished areas. LBJ appointed a commission in a period known as the Long, Hot summer of 1967, to address the core issues of the riots. 1967's summer months saw 157 riots alone. You had the Watts Riots in 65, Detroit in 67, and the Police and National Guardsmen beating people in the streets.. Chicago had a horrible case of this in August 1968, when the police started beating peaceful Vietnam War protesters.

With the information I presented here, I must ask: Is LBJ an underrated/overrated president? Am I wrong in saying he's forgotten?

Personally, I think LBJ definitely was in the shadow of Kennedy and Nixon. And perhaps the worst tragedy of all is that Nixon started the War on Drugs, which, from my limited sources, LBJ was opposed to. We can see just how bad this impacted communities across the country
Last edited by Asardia on Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:21 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:59 pm

The tragedy continued. LBJ drank heavily after his Presidency and died almost exactly 4 years later.
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Postby Brettenwald » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:03 pm

Vietnam aside, I think LBJ is pretty underrated.
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Postby Picairn » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:04 pm

His involvement in Vietnam and The Great Society is what makes him unforgettable to the American public. Also he's frequently remembered as a racist who routinely used the N-word and would often intimidate legislators into supporting his bills.

What a wild man.
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Postby Tranzoria » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:06 pm

He has some ups, like Civil Rights and War on Poverty, and downs, like some of his tax bills, and then there is Vietnam.
On a scale from 0-10,
he is 6.5/10
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Postby Asardia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:15 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:The tragedy continued. LBJ drank heavily after his Presidency and died almost exactly 4 years later.


And that's even worse. Just looking at pictures of him during his last years in the White House, LBJ was visibly distressed.

Brettenwald wrote:Vietnam aside, I think LBJ is pretty underrated.


Agreed

Picairn wrote:His involvement in Vietnam and The Great Society is what makes him unforgettable to the American public. Also he's frequently remembered as a racist who routinely used the N-word and would often intimidate legislators into supporting his bills.

What a wild man.


I heard his intimidation was referred to as "The Johnson Treatment". I saw a documentary on him, and from what is showed, he was just stubborn and strong-willed. I need to read up on that though. And there's also no excusing his usage of the n-wor.

Tranzoria wrote:He has some ups, like Civil Rights and War on Poverty, and downs, like some of his tax bills, and then there is Vietnam.
On a scale from 0-10,
he is 6.5/10


Can you explain the impact of the tax bills?
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Tranzoria
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Postby Tranzoria » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:18 pm

Asardia wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:The tragedy continued. LBJ drank heavily after his Presidency and died almost exactly 4 years later.


And that's even worse. Just looking at pictures of him during his last years in the White House, LBJ was visibly distressed.

Brettenwald wrote:Vietnam aside, I think LBJ is pretty underrated.


Agreed

Picairn wrote:His involvement in Vietnam and The Great Society is what makes him unforgettable to the American public. Also he's frequently remembered as a racist who routinely used the N-word and would often intimidate legislators into supporting his bills.

What a wild man.


I heard his intimidation was referred to as "The Johnson Treatment". I saw a documentary on him, and from what is showed, he was just stubborn and strong-willed. I need to read up on that though. And there's also no excusing his usage of the n-wor.

Tranzoria wrote:He has some ups, like Civil Rights and War on Poverty, and downs, like some of his tax bills, and then there is Vietnam.
On a scale from 0-10,
he is 6.5/10


Can you explain the impact of the tax bills?

Although the War on Poverty saved most homeless people from the tax bill, those who made it out of Poverty, or at least some of them, or even regular people, were put into poverty again by the bills.
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Radiatia
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Postby Radiatia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:23 pm

I definitely wouldn't call him a forgotten President - he's still someone that invokes a lot of strong emotion and still a fairly polarising figure.

I think his reputation has improved as time has gone on, I'm not his biggest fan personally but he definitely achieved some positive things in office and I can see why people would like him.

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Postby Sundiata » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:26 pm

I think he was fantastic on domestic policy, possibly the best since Abraham Lincoln.
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Postby Arlenton » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:30 pm

I like his foreign policy more than his domestic policy. He also apparently liked to whip his dick out at people.

6/10

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Postby Heloin » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:35 pm

Arlenton wrote:I like his foreign policy more than his domestic policy.

His foreign policy of bombing the ever loving hell out of people. One of the few positive things from his tenure could be said to be his domestic policy unless you think the destruction of South East Asia was a net benefit for the world.

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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:21 pm

Asardia wrote:Is he one of America's most unknown presidents?

On November 22, 1963, Lyndon Baines Johnson (commonly called LBJ) was inaugurated after JFK's assassination. His presidency was the time of massive change in American society. Civil rights, health care, poverty, and perhaps the most infamous of all, Vietnam. It is my belief that one of the America's best, and arguably one of the worst presidents, is forgotten to the public. LBJ ran the nation after the last president to be assassinated, and the first to resign. In the chaos of post 1963, it's easy to forget this man, but I believe his legacy is too important for that.

Lyndon Johnson strongly believed in the Great Society, a grand plan for the massive transformation and improvement in the lives of the average American. His accomplishments in this field is astounding to me. But then Vietnam happened. He plunged the nation into a brutal war of attrition in a far away land most people never even knew existed. And this is my point right here: The Vietnam War overshadowed LBJ's presidency. Whatever he did on the legislative front was always overshadowed by Vietnam, and the Civil Rights Movement as a whole.

Here's a list of the significant legislation passed during his tenure:
1963: Clean Air Act of 1963
1963: Higher Education Facilities Act of 1963
1963: Vocational Education Act of 1963
1964: Civil Rights Act of 1964
1964: Urban Mass Transportation Act of 1964
1964: Wilderness Act
1964: Nurse Training Act of 1964[292]
1964: Food Stamp Act of 1964
1964: Economic Opportunity Act

1964: Housing Act of 1964
1965: Higher Education Act of 1965
1965: Older Americans Act
1965: Coinage Act of 1965
1965: Social Security Act of 1965
1965: Voting Rights Act of 1965
1965: Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965

1966: Animal Welfare Act of 1966
1966: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
1967: Age Discrimination in Employment Act
1967: Public Broadcasting Act of 1967
1968: Architectural Barriers Act of 1968
1968: Bilingual Education Act
1968: Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act)
1968: Gun Control Act of 1968


Among the most important are all the Civil Rights laws plus the Food Stamp Act, 1965 Immigration Reform Act (which overturned decades of racist immigration policies) and the Freedom of Information Act.

On the other front, he quickly expanded operations in Vietnam, leading to 543,000 American troops fighting in Vietnam in 1968. Then you have the cultural phenomenons of the 1960s: The counter-culture movement/hippies, increase in drug usage, and (what at the time) was called the "ghetto riots". All of these presented so many challenges to a conservative society. Hippies and drug users aimed for a more liberal society, while the disastrous series of riots in the 60s destroyed many black and impoverished areas. LBJ appointed a commission in a period known as the Long, Hot summer of 1967, to address the core issues of the riots. 1967's summer months saw 157 riots alone. You had the Watts Riots in 65Police and National Guardsmen were beating people in the streets. Chicago had a horrible case of this in August 1968, when the police started beating peaceful Vietnam War protesters.

With the information I presented here, I must ask: Is LBJ an underrated/overrated president? Am I wrong in saying he's forgotten?

Personally, I think LBJ definitely was in the shadow of Kennedy and Nixon. And perhaps the worst tragedy of all is that Nixon started the War on Drugs, which, from my limited sources, LBJ was opposed to. We can see just how bad this impacted communities across the country

You should have waited until the 27th for this, that's his birthday.
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Postby Cisairse » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:26 pm

Critical support for President Lyndon Johnson
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Postby FutureAmerica » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:33 pm

He was a corrupt president who mismanaged the Vietnam War, then decided not to run for a second term. He was a failure overall as president. Carter and W Bush were also big failures as president.

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Postby Picairn » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:47 pm


Funny how LBJ criticized Goldwater for being a warhawk yet he would later drag the US into Vietnam.
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:57 pm

Picairn wrote:

Funny how LBJ criticized Goldwater for being a warhawk yet he would later drag the US into Vietnam.

The US was already in Vietnam when Johnson became president, we had been since the mid-50s. The major escalation was definitely Johnson's but he didn't drag us anywhere we already weren't.

Oh, and the Daisy ad had to do with nuclear weapons, not conventional warhawkishness.
Last edited by Farnhamia on Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Conservative Republic Of Huang » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:02 pm

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Postby Neanderthaland » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:09 pm


Your source seems to suggest that the idea is pretty dubious.

But hey, while we're on the subject: anybody remember when Nixon negotiated with the enemy during wartime to sabotage peace negotiations in order to get elected? Or, you know, Watergate? You know, things that for sure happened.
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Postby Czechostan » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:17 pm

He's definitely not a forgotten president. Not in comparison to people like Benjamin Harrison or James A. Garfield.

Yes, the Vietnam War really destroyed his legacy. I think LBJ even called it "the whore that killed the Great Society," or something to that effect.

As some observed, he was a pretty aggressive and intimidating fellow. If Johnson were alive today, his twitter would be far more vulgar than Trump's. Actually, now that I think about it, I would have loved to see the two get in a Twitter spat.

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Postby Cordel One » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:32 pm

LBJ would be a 5/10 for me as far as Presidents go, but he gets boosted to a 9 because of this. (sorry if it's too NSFW, rules are kinda vague on stuff like this but I think it's ok? It's really funny though)

edit - 1:57
Last edited by Cordel One on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Purpelia » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:58 pm

Cordel One wrote:LBJ would be a 5/10 for me as far as Presidents go, but he gets boosted to a 9 because of this. (sorry if it's too NSFW, rules are kinda vague on stuff like this but I think it's ok? It's really funny though)

The guy was given a choice if he wanted to abandon Vietnam or turn it into a proper war where untold of locals would die fighting american imperialism. And he chose the later. 0/10. Evil to the bone.
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Cordel One
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Postby Cordel One » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:02 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Cordel One wrote:LBJ would be a 5/10 for me as far as Presidents go, but he gets boosted to a 9 because of this. (sorry if it's too NSFW, rules are kinda vague on stuff like this but I think it's ok? It's really funny though)

The guy was given a choice if he wanted to abandon Vietnam or turn it into a proper war where untold of locals would die fighting american imperialism. And he chose the later. 0/10. Evil to the bone.

I was parodying a liberal viewpoint, in all seriousness he was a horrible imperialist and you're completely right.
Last edited by Cordel One on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Telconi » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:13 pm

He's not forgotten, he just sucked.
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Postby Sundiata » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:18 pm

Telconi wrote:He's not forgotten, he just sucked.

He was a fine President, any man would stumble in the face of the enormous responsibilities that he had. It's not an easy thing to actively oppose racism domestically and totalitarianism abroad.
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