Possible Revolution in Belarus after Rigged election

[-Astoria-]

I really don’t understand why the EU and America can not focus on their own problems. This is why the west must end the practice of electing corporate controlled neoliberal/neoconservative puppets.

How does interfering in another countries affairs help the environment? Poor people? I could go on and on.

Leave states like Belarus, Syria and Iran alone.

Maybe they want to temporarily forget about them for a time.

[Novus America]

I really don’t understand why the EU and America can not focus on their own problems. This is why the west must end the practice of electing corporate controlled neoliberal/neoconservative puppets.

How does interfering in another countries affairs help the environment? Poor people? I could go on and on.

Leave states like Belarus, Syria and Iran alone.

Fixing our own problems does not require us supporting authoritarian regimes though.
Few people are calling for direct military intervention, or any really intervention at all. We can still refuse to support the regime we oppose without actively toppling it, which is what we are doing here.

These protests in Belarus are because the people in Belarus are pissed, not because Western countries said they support the protests.

[Novus America]

Their disapproval of the direction their countries are heading to =/= their disapproval of democracy itself. Indeed, your own source says this:

Their views on Western countries are also overwhelmingly positive, except NATO:

Now ask whether they miss the brutality and oppression of the Soviet police state, and the results may turn 180 degrees completely.

When 50% said they wanted the USSR back, that's what you're looking for.

They did not say that though. They said the regretted they way it fell, not that that hey necessarily want it back. People here in the US huge nostalgia for the 80s, early 60s and 50s, but that does not mean they want to go back.

If people want the Soviet Union back how come the Communist Party and Russia gets so limited support? If they want the Soviet Union back Zyuganov would be more popular than Putin.

Why do the majority fail to vote for the parties who want it back? (at least in the places they can vote?)

Besides sure considering outside the Baltics, (where people definitely do not want the Soviets back) most of the former Soviet Union is dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The Soviet Union did provide a social support system, where most the post Soviet Regimes kept the some authoritarian leaders, but got rid of the social support.

They miss the social support, but do not miss the KGB thugs.
Now they lost the social support but still have the KGN things yes they are unhappy.

But just because they prefer social support with KGB thugs to KGB thugs without social support, even more they would rather social support without the KGB thugs.

Social democracy, not neoliberals dictators NOR having the KGB back.

[Novus America]

When 50% said they wanted the USSR back, that's what you're looking for.

Now ask whether they miss the brutality and oppression of the Soviet police state, and the results may turn 180 degrees completely.

Exactly. They want more social support and less neoliberalism sure, but that is not the same thing as wanting the Soviet Union to return as it was.

People in the US saying the miss the past do not actually want to turn back the clock to 1986 or 1962 and keep it there.

[Mannixa Prime]

I really don’t understand why the EU and America can not focus on their own problems. This is why the west must end the practice of electing corporate controlled neoliberal/neoconservative puppets.

How does interfering in another countries affairs help the environment? Poor people? I could go on and on.

Leave states like Belarus, Syria and Iran alone.

Fixing our own problems does not require us supporting authoritarian regimes though.
Few people are calling for direct military intervention, or any really intervention at all. We can still refuse to support the regime we oppose without actively toppling it, which is what we are doing here.

These protests in Belarus are because the people in Belarus are pissed, not because Western countries said they support the protests.

You mean the CIA backed colour revolution?

[-Astoria-]

Fixing our own problems does not require us supporting authoritarian regimes though.
Few people are calling for direct military intervention, or any really intervention at all. We can still refuse to support the regime we oppose without actively toppling it, which is what we are doing here.

These protests in Belarus are because the people in Belarus are pissed, not because Western countries said they support the protests.

You mean the CIA backed colour revolution?

Sorry; how?

[Novus America]

Fixing our own problems does not require us supporting authoritarian regimes though.
Few people are calling for direct military intervention, or any really intervention at all. We can still refuse to support the regime we oppose without actively toppling it, which is what we are doing here.

These protests in Belarus are because the people in Belarus are pissed, not because Western countries said they support the protests.

You mean the CIA backed colour revolution?

No, because you have no evidence whatsoever that the people protesting are mindless CIA pawns, or any CIA involvement whatsoever. You seem to forget the US was trying to IMPROVE relations with Lukashenko before this.
This actually complicates things for the US greatly.

People here are protesting because they are people with their own thoughts, wants and needs, protesting because they think the government failed to meet those needs. You would not say the protests in the US a month or so ago were a foreign plot, so why do you think protests outside the US are always a US plot?

Also contrary to popular belief there is no magical mind control machine at Langley that one can simply push a button and people suddenly want to topple a government.

Even where the US has more directly supported a revolution, we could not have supported something that did not already exist. We can only support a revolution in progress, not create it out of thin air.

Supporting something is not the same as causing or creating it, or assuming your support is the only or even primary cause.

[Shofercia]

When 50% said they wanted the USSR back, that's what you're looking for.

They did not say that though. They said the regretted they way it fell, not that that hey necessarily want it back. People here in the US huge nostalgia for the 80s, early 60s and 50s, but that does not mean they want to go back.

If people want the Soviet Union back how come the Communist Party and Russia gets so limited support? If they want the Soviet Union back Zyuganov would be more popular than Putin.

Why do the majority fail to vote for the parties who want it back? (at least in the places they can vote?)

Besides sure considering outside the Baltics, (where people definitely do not want the Soviets back) most of the former Soviet Union is dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The Soviet Union did provide a social support system, where most the post Soviet Regimes kept the some authoritarian leaders, but got rid of the social support.

They miss the social support, but do not miss the KGB thugs.
Now they lost the social support but still have the KGN things yes they are unhappy.

But just because they prefer social support with KGB thugs to KGB thugs without social support, even more they would rather social support without the KGB thugs.

Social democracy, not neoliberals dictators NOR having the KGB back.

Bold words for someone without citing any data. First, Zyuganov is an idiot who had multiple party coups, so it's quite understandable why the people don't support CPRF under the leadership of an imbecile. It'll be interesting to see how the CPRF does once Zyuganov is finally couped, which is likely to happen within the next decade. Of course it'll be presented as him "retiring" from the party due to old age.

Second, we do have a poll: https://www.levada.ru/cp/wp-content/upl ... Soyuze.pdf

Won't add up to 100% since I'm excluding the neutral option:
Do you support Soviet Values: Positive - 76%; Negative - 7%
Do you regret the Fall of the USSR: yes - 65%; no - 26%;
Should the Fall of the USSR have been prevented: yes - 65%; no - 26% (not surprising)
The Soviet Era (1945-1982) was the best in the Country's History: yes - 75%; no - 18%
Name Top 5 reasons for regret: loss of identity, loss of Social Rights, more distrust and corruption in politics, loss of feeling of safety, loss of friendship

What should the country do:
Continue on the current Putin/United Russia Path: 58%
Return to the Communist Path: 28%
Join the European Union: 10%

Yes, clearly Russians are just waiting to be Liberated by Westerners



Polls were taken by Levada. There are three types of credible polling in Russia, Levada which is anti-Putin, VSIOM which is pro-Putin, and a mixture of other sources... and I should note that 90% of the time the polls are withing the margin of error of each other.

[Punished UMN]

When 50% said they wanted the USSR back, that's what you're looking for.

They did not say that though. They said the regretted they way it fell, not that that hey necessarily want it back. People here in the US huge nostalgia for the 80s, early 60s and 50s, but that does not mean they want to go back.

If people want the Soviet Union back how come the Communist Party and Russia gets so limited support? If they want the Soviet Union back Zyuganov would be more popular than Putin.

Why do the majority fail to vote for the parties who want it back? (at least in the places they can vote?)

Besides sure considering outside the Baltics, (where people definitely do not want the Soviets back) most of the former Soviet Union is dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The Soviet Union did provide a social support system, where most the post Soviet Regimes kept the some authoritarian leaders, but got rid of the social support.

They miss the social support, but do not miss the KGB thugs.
Now they lost the social support but still have the KGN things yes they are unhappy.

But just because they prefer social support with KGB thugs to KGB thugs without social support, even more they would rather social support without the KGB thugs.

Social democracy, not neoliberals dictators NOR having the KGB back.

In 1996, the Communists won parliamentary elections quite resounding.

[Novus America]

They did not say that though. They said the regretted they way it fell, not that that hey necessarily want it back. People here in the US huge nostalgia for the 80s, early 60s and 50s, but that does not mean they want to go back.

If people want the Soviet Union back how come the Communist Party and Russia gets so limited support? If they want the Soviet Union back Zyuganov would be more popular than Putin.

Why do the majority fail to vote for the parties who want it back? (at least in the places they can vote?)

Besides sure considering outside the Baltics, (where people definitely do not want the Soviets back) most of the former Soviet Union is dictatorships or authoritarian regimes. The Soviet Union did provide a social support system, where most the post Soviet Regimes kept the some authoritarian leaders, but got rid of the social support.

They miss the social support, but do not miss the KGB thugs.
Now they lost the social support but still have the KGN things yes they are unhappy.

But just because they prefer social support with KGB thugs to KGB thugs without social support, even more they would rather social support without the KGB thugs.

Social democracy, not neoliberals dictators NOR having the KGB back.

In 1996, the Communists won parliamentary elections quite resounding.

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

[-Astoria-]

In 1996, the Communists won parliamentary elections quite resounding.

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

Wasn't that back when the monarchy was still around?

[Novus America]

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

Wasn't that back when the monarchy was still around?

No, the monarchy ended in 1917.

[Punished UMN]

In 1996, the Communists won parliamentary elections quite resounding.

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

Even so, the poll that Shof cites is quite convincing.

[-Astoria-]

No, the monarchy ended in 1917.

Just realised the thread wasn't on Nepal; disregard what I said earlier.

[Novus America]

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

Even so, the poll that Shof cites is quite convincing.[/quote]

I usually ignore his wanking but:
“What should the country do:
Continue on the current Putin/United Russia Path: 58%
Return to the Communist Path: 28%
Join the European Union: 10%”

Yes pretty convincing, that on 28% want the Soviet Union back, and that 68% do not.
Pretty convincing the majority agree with Putin that although the miss it they do not want it back.

[Aureumterra]

In 1996, the Communists won parliamentary elections quite resounding.

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

I never quite get Putin’s ideology or if he even has one, in one speech he would be praising communism and Marx and in the next he would be lambasting and criticizing Lenin and Marx

[Novus America]

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

I never quite get Putin’s ideology or if he even has one, in one speech he would be praising communism and Marx and in the next he would be lambasting and criticizing Lenin and Marx

A lot seems to be that although 68% do not want the Soviet Union back 28% do. He is not above changing his views to fit his audience, saying one thing to one audience and another to another.

I do not think he really has a coherent ideology beyond staying in power indefinitely.

He will say or do whatever to keep people in line. It is just standard authoritarian populism with a bunch of chauvinistic wanking.

[Heloin]

Technically 1995. But the Communists only won 22% of the popular vote.

That is hardly a resounding “we want the Soviet Union back exactly as it was”.
Putin, who gets the majority (sure not entirely freely or fairly at all but still is genuinely popular) said “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain.”
That is apparently the pretty common opinion throughout the former Soviet sphere.

I never quite get Putin’s ideology or if he even has one, in one speech he would be praising communism and Marx and in the next he would be lambasting and criticizing Lenin and Marx

Putinism. It involves wrestling large animals while shirtless and poisoning lots of political opponents.

[-Astoria-]

I never quite get Putin’s ideology or if he even has one, in one speech he would be praising communism and Marx and in the next he would be lambasting and criticizing Lenin and Marx

Putinism. It involves wrestling large animals while shirtless and poisoning lots of political opponents.

m a n l y

[Punished UMN]

Even so, the poll that Shof cites is quite convincing.

I usually ignore his wanking but:
“What should the country do:
Continue on the current Putin/United Russia Path: 58%
Return to the Communist Path: 28%
Join the European Union: 10%”

Yes pretty convincing, that on 28% want the Soviet Union back, and that 68% do not.
Pretty convincing the majority agree with Putin that although the miss it they do not want it back.[/quote]
This is called cherry picking and ignores that this is influenced by many things which are not relevant to supporting Soviet-style communism. When over 60% say that the USSR was the greatest period in Russian history and over 70% support "Soviet values", that is more indicative.

[Novus America]

Even so, the poll that Shof cites is quite convincing.

I usually ignore his wanking but:
“What should the country do:
Continue on the current Putin/United Russia Path: 58%
Return to the Communist Path: 28%
Join the European Union: 10%”

Yes pretty convincing, that on 28% want the Soviet Union back, and that 68% do not.
Pretty convincing the majority agree with Putin that although the miss it they do not want it back.

This is called cherry picking and ignores that this is influenced by many things which are not relevant to supporting Soviet-style communism. When over 60% say that the USSR was the greatest period in Russian history and over 70% support "Soviet values", that is more indicative.[/quote]

No, because as explained thinking a past period was the best =/= wanting it back.

I will have to find the source again. But I remember seeing a poll where Americans said the best period was the 1950s.
That does not mean we want to go back to it.

Again when asked if they want to go back to it, they say no. That is not cherry picking because that is literally the direct question!
People can answer differently because just because the idolize the past does not mean they want to return to it.

That is the nature of nostalgia.

Also you can only want selective good parts of that past era back while leaving the ugly parts behind. You can only build the future, not return to the past, which you would not even want to do.

The majority saying they want to continue with Putinism over the Soviet model would mean the majority still want Putinism over the Soviet model... obviously.

Now on Belarus I do not have a poll, but I would imagine they do not want to magically role the clock back to 1975, even if they could, which of course they cannot. Even if a majority might say 1975 was better than now.

[Shofercia]

This is called cherry picking and ignores that this is influenced by many things which are not relevant to supporting Soviet-style communism. When over 60% say that the USSR was the greatest period in Russian history and over 70% support "Soviet values", that is more indicative.

No, because as explained thinking a past period was the best =/= wanting it back.

I will have to find the source again. But I remember seeing a poll where Americans said the best period was the 1950s.
That does not mean we want to go back to it.

That is quite idiotic to say: "We rocked, so we shouldn't go back to rocking!" That's not how reality works. Most Russians don't want Communism back, because of the transition difficulty. What we have works, let's not change it, rather than "we don't want to be great if we could be great!"

Again when asked if they want to go back to it, they say no. That is not cherry picking because that is literally the direct question!
People can answer differently because just because the idolize the past does not mean they want to return to it.

That is the nature of nostalgia.

No, that's the nature of cherry picking. You might want to be a great runner, but you don't want to give up tasty food and wake up at 5 am to run; that doesn't mean that you don't want to go back to being a great runner, it just means that you're not ready to make the transition, yet. You have to consider the transition when asking someone to go from A to B.

Also you can only want selective good parts of that past era back while leaving the ugly parts behind. You can only build the future, not return to the past, which you would not even want to do.

The majority saying they want to continue with Putinism over the Soviet model would mean the majority still want Putinism over the Soviet model... obviously.

Or it could mean that the majority wants the Soviet model, but doesn't want to work for it through the transition period, and are also happy with Putinism. No wonder you ignore my posts and call them "wanking" - because I make these points that you don't seem to grasp.

Now on Belarus I do not have a poll, but I would imagine they do not want to magically role the clock back to 1975, even if they could, which of course they cannot. Even if a majority might say 1975 was better than now.

Or they could want to roll back the clock to 1975, just with a different leader. The longer the leader stays in power, the more he or she is usually disliked, and Lukashenko held power for a while. FDR was a better president than Teddy of JFK, and yet he was in power for a long time, (by US standards,) so who're Americans more nostalgic about? Teddy & JFK.

[Aureumterra]

Someone linked this on the Nepal thread but holy fucking fuck

[Greater Cosmicium]

The opposition has already made a set of plans for what to do to "reanimate" Belarus' economy upon them taking power: https://archive.is/sW8u2 (archive.is link, because the original site gives a database error) (in Russian, use Google Translate)

Though the post was made in May of this year, it's probably still relevant now. It seems to be very similar to what happened to most countries of the USSR and Warsaw Pact (mass privatization, price liberalizations, etcetera).

[Shofercia]

Looks like protests are losing steam: http://abcnewsradioonline.com/world-new ... -come.html

Protests calling for Belarus' leader Alexander Lukashenko to step down took place again in the capital Minsk on Wednesday, but for the first time in a week riot police reappeared on the streets as authorities seemed to take steps to regain momentum against the protests. The hundreds of protesters calling for an end to Lukashenko's 26-year rule sought to gather outside the Interior Ministry in central Minsk, but were met by a large number of riot police deployed to block them.

Reading between the lines, that's really bad. The protesters numbered in the thousands. Now it's just a few hundred.

The protests have sought to keep the pressure up on Lukashenko. But after the euphoria of the vast crowds of Sunday, by Wednesday an unease and a sense of fragility had appeared among some protesters, aware Lukashenko's grip on power has not been broken and mass defections of security forces or government workers have so far not materialized. The authorities appeared to have recovered some of their footing. In the morning, police dispersed protesters outside a Minsk factory where they have been encouraging a strike, arresting some, though they did not use the extreme violence that was seen at the start of the protests.

The announcement of a wave of strikes at some of Belarus' largest manufacturing plants last week produced some of the momentum to the protests that culminated in Sunday's massive demonstrations in Minsk, viewed as a signal that the workers long considered Lukashenko's base were also turning on him. But in the past few days, authorities and management at the factories have turned up the pressure on workers and by midweek the strikes appeared to be struggling. A walkout by workers from the Minsk Tractor Factory last week was taken as a sign of the protests' ballooning support. But on Tuesday when ABC News reporters visited the factory -- a vast complex with 16,000 staff -- workers supportive of the protest said the numbers willing to strike had shrunk dramatically. Workers said they were unsure how many people were striking in the factory, but that it had fallen from around 10,000 on the first day to far less -- perhaps less than 2,000.

Looks like Lukashenko gave in to the workers' demands. The oppositions unified behind Tikhanovskaya, but the Kremlin flatly rejected any cooperation with her. The initial protests started as a result of rigged elections, falling Social Rights, and absence of Political Rights, as well as Lukashenko being in power for too long. Social and Political Rights are now trending in a positive direction, and considering that the alternative to Lukashenko Fatigue is a candidate who failed in her first major foreign policy task, the protests seem to fizzling out. Social Rights are here to stay, but will Political Rights remain, at least on a local level? That'd be interesting to watch.