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Former King of Spain flees Spain

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So should Spain get rid of the monarchy

Yes
83
47%
No
76
43%
Not Sure
18
10%
 
Total votes : 177

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Menorica
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Postby Menorica » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:38 pm

Why is everyone on about the Former King of Spain fleeing the country? I mean like for goodness sakes, This happened before!

His Majesty King Edward VIII abdicated (resigned) to be King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain to marry his American Queen-Consort (or rather more-so Duchess) Wallis Simpson, And fled the UK to many places since than....

(Formerly) His Royal Highness and (Formerly) Her Royal Highness; Prince Harry and Duchess Meghan fled the United Kingdom of Great Britain for the United States of America Commonwealth of Canada to avoid paparazzi attention and mostly the Monarchy, The Duke and Duchess of Sussex are now currently residing as dual citizens in the United States of America where both AND the Future of the British Monarchy itself; Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor are permanently staying at this point, Avoiding another duty call for the Monarchy; Summer With The Queen In August....

So this isn't anything new, Just something History forgot to explain to the Entertainment World.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:39 pm

New Visayan Islands wrote:
Godular wrote:
The Dominican Republic is largely Catholic, so it should be easy to spread sedition.

And if that fails, what's the betting one takes the nuclear option that is rendition?


I suppose it matters little, in the end he'll find perdition.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:39 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Heloin wrote:I think its even funnier for a national anthem to pledge it's loyalty to a foreign monarch of a country that got rid of it.

Technically the Dutch anthem is a longwinded declaration stating "I know the King of Spain is gods chosen representative on earth, but God himself orders us to kick him out" - not a pledge of loyalty ;)

If your going to declare your loyalty in the first verse then spend 14 more verses explaining how your not going to do that anymore then sing the whole thing or stop singing the first verse.
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Western Fardelshufflestein
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Postby Western Fardelshufflestein » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:42 pm

Menorica wrote:Commonwealth of Canada

AAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE
Godular wrote:
New Visayan Islands wrote:And if that fails, what's the betting one takes the nuclear option that is rendition?


I suppose it matters little, in the end he'll find perdition.

I highly doubt he will find a lucrative career as a statistician, but who knows what he is a wishin'.
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Godular
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Postby Godular » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:43 pm

Western Fardelshufflestein wrote:
Menorica wrote:Commonwealth of Canada

AAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEE
Godular wrote:
I suppose it matters little, in the end he'll find perdition.

I highly doubt he will find a lucrative career as a statistician, but who knows what he is a wishin'.


Were I a betting man, I think he'd rather be fishin'.

okay I'll stop
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:48 pm

Menorica wrote:Why is everyone on about the Former King of Spain fleeing the country? I mean like for goodness sakes, This happened before!

His Majesty King Edward VIII abdicated (resigned) to be King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain to marry his American Queen-Consort (or rather more-so Duchess) Wallis Simpson, And fled the UK to many places since than....

(Formerly) His Royal Highness and (Formerly) Her Royal Highness; Prince Harry and Duchess Meghan fled the United Kingdom of Great Britain for the United States of America Commonwealth of Canada to avoid paparazzi attention and mostly the Monarchy, The Duke and Duchess of Sussex are now currently residing as dual citizens in the United States of America where both AND the Future of the British Monarchy itself; Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor are permanently staying at this point, Avoiding another duty call for the Monarchy; Summer With The Queen In August....

So this isn't anything new, Just something History forgot to explain to the Entertainment World.

They didn't flee, the British government wanted them gone. The situation for Spain, a former king running away to escape any trouble from his finances, is pretty big news.
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Menorica
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Postby Menorica » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:57 pm

Heloin wrote:the British government wanted them gone. The situation for Spain, a former king running away to escape any trouble from his finances, is pretty big news.


Actually, No. The Government didn't want them gone, If so then his name, his titles, and his ranks would have all been removed. Instead he is honoured as a man who probably have saved the future simply BY abdicating. To say the least, If it wasn't for King Edward abdicating, Her Majesty The Queen wouldn't have been Queen for 100% of the UK's Modern History.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:59 pm

Menorica wrote:
Heloin wrote:the British government wanted them gone. The situation for Spain, a former king running away to escape any trouble from his finances, is pretty big news.


Actually, No. The Government didn't want them gone, If so then his name, his titles, and his ranks would have all been removed. Instead he is honoured as a man who probably have saved the future simply BY abdicating. To say the least, If it wasn't for King Edward abdicating, Her Majesty The Queen wouldn't have been Queen for 100% of the UK's Modern History.

The UK government thought it'd be swell if he dropped dead for causing the whole abdication crisis. Then they sent him away to the Bahamas during the War for being a Nazi.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:56 pm

Menorica wrote:Why is everyone on about the Former King of Spain fleeing the country? I mean like for goodness sakes, This happened before!

His Majesty King Edward VIII abdicated (resigned) to be King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain to marry his American Queen-Consort (or rather more-so Duchess) Wallis Simpson, And fled the UK to many places since than....

(Formerly) His Royal Highness and (Formerly) Her Royal Highness; Prince Harry and Duchess Meghan fled the United Kingdom of Great Britain for the United States of America Commonwealth of Canada to avoid paparazzi attention and mostly the Monarchy, The Duke and Duchess of Sussex are now currently residing as dual citizens in the United States of America where both AND the Future of the British Monarchy itself; Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor are permanently staying at this point, Avoiding another duty call for the Monarchy; Summer With The Queen In August....

So this isn't anything new, Just something History forgot to explain to the Entertainment World.


Your point that this has happened before is a good one.

Your use of a couple of British examples to make the point is, however, poor - not to mention riddled with errors when it comes to the Duke and Duchess of Sussex (among other things, they remain HRHs; they have merely agreed not to use their formal style). The British monarchy has been fairly stable, with only one abdication (Edward VIII) following the deposition of James II/VII in 1688.


It would be far, far better to use Spanish examples to make the point with Spain. Those unfamiliar with the history of the Spanish monarchy may not fully appreciate how unstable the Spanish throne has been since the Napoleonic Wars. Since Carlos III died in 1788, there have been nine Spanish monarchs (including the incumbent Felipe VI); of these, only two have died on the throne, and only one - Alfonso XII (1874-1885) - has completed a reign and died on the throne without at some point being deposed, forced to abdicate, and/or or exiled. Even in Alfonso XII's case, he came to the throne only after his mother was forced into exile, an unrelated Italian from the House of Savoy was briefly made king, and Spain was even more briefly a republic; according to his family loyalists he technically became king when his mother abdicated in his favour in 1870, two years after she was deposed.

For reference, the full list after the death of Carlos III:

House of Bourbon:
Carlos IV: 1788-1808 (abdicated)
Fernando VII: March-May 1808 (abdicated)

House of Bonaparte:
Jose I: 1808-1813 (deposed)

House of Bourbon: (restored)
Fernando VII: 1813-1833 (restored; died on throne)
Isabel II: 1833-1868 (deposed; formally abdicated in favour of future Alfonso XII in 1870)

1868-1870 - Regency

House of Savoy:
Amadeo I: 1870-1873 (abdicated)

1873-1874 - First Spanish Republic

House of Bourbon: (restored)
Alfonso XII: 1874-1885 (died on throne)
Alfonso XIII: 1886-1931 (posthumous accession [born 6 months after death of father]; abdicated)

1931-1939 - Second Spanish Republic

1936-1975 - Estado Español (monarchy technically restored, without a monarch, in 1947; but Franco remains caudillo until his death)

House of Bourbon: (restored)
Juan Carlos I: 1975-2014 (abdicated)
Felipe VI: 2014-present

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:09 am

Rio Cana wrote:Some say he helped bring democracy to Spain while others say he was hand picked by the Spanish dictator without any public referendum.


And it's entirely possible that both are true; that Juan Carlos was hand-picked as Franco's successor without a vote, and then (without attempting to downplay the scandals that brought about his abdication) played a crucial and much-honoured role in bringing democracy to Spain.


As the lack of a vote or referendum in restoring the monarchy, it's true that Juan Carlos became king without any form of public vote, but his role as monarch and as representative of the historic ruling dynasty was explicitly outlined by Part II of the Spanish Constitution of 1978. This was then approved by a public referendum in December 1978, where the constitution - and the role of the monarch within that constitution - was approved by almost 92% of Spanish voters. So the role of the monarch within the modern Spanish nation does have significant democratic legitimacy.

The people of Spain are, of course, free to change their minds on this point via the special provisions applying to changes to Part II of the constitution (which similarly apply to replacing the existing constitution with a new constitution).

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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:26 am

Gentlemen, this might be a good opportunity to restore the true and rightful royal house of Spain:

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Mestovakia
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Postby Mestovakia » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:31 am

Godular wrote:The King in Spain leaves mainly in a plane?

Would it be better to use 'The Reign in Spain?'


I understand this reference.

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State of Turelisa
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Postby State of Turelisa » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:08 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:And, really, there should be a King of Spain. The world would be less interesting if there wasn't. I suppose, if the Spanish people decide to get rid of the monarchy, the family could fall back on one of their other titles, like, say, King of Jerusalem.

Not to mention the Dutch would need to change their anthem if there is no Spanish king. Which would get it removed from the Guiness book of records and make everybody sad.


A national anthem should be a song that's representative of the nation's values that it represents. Not mawkish lyrics that pay homage to the Head of State.
In Britain, there are several patriotic songs which properly represent its national identity, including I Vow to Thee My Country, which I think would be an apt replacement for the current national anthem, were the Monarchy abolished.
Last edited by State of Turelisa on Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:57 am

As a proud descendant of Spaniards and someone who has studied nobility extensively, the decline of nobility is kind of inevitable and a result of transparency and the reality of monarchy, that being that no one person should have all of that power and influence, no matter how benevolent they may seem, they will abuse their power eventually, whether out of desperation to preserve their "lifestyle" (their wealth and pride) or out of greed. It is how nobility fell before, amidst scandals and decadence and incest and crime and the rise of popular sovereignty, and it is how it will always fall.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:17 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:And, really, there should be a King of Spain. The world would be less interesting if there wasn't. I suppose, if the Spanish people decide to get rid of the monarchy, the family could fall back on one of their other titles, like, say, King of Jerusalem.

Not to mention the Dutch would need to change their anthem if there is no Spanish king. Which would get it removed from the Guiness book of records and make everybody sad.



It wasn't changed during the Franco-era, Second Spanish Republic era, and such either.
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Postby Atheris » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:19 am

Can you at least link a news post, please? It makes the OP look a bit better imho.
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:26 am

A shame, but ultimately not something that the monarchy can't live past.

Elected officials, after all, get away with much of the same.
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Postby Ayanka » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:50 am

Menorica wrote:Why is everyone on about the Former King of Spain fleeing the country? I mean like for goodness sakes, This happened before!


The big news is not the simple fact that the former king of Spain is fleeing the country. The important news here is that he's doing so while being investigated by the Supreme Court of Spain for being suspect of money laundering and tax evasion.
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Postby Novus America » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:30 am

Salus Maior wrote:A shame, but ultimately not something that the monarchy can't live past.

Elected officials, after all, get away with much of the same.


Elected official are temporary administrators and not of the same symbolism.
Monarchs are therefore expected to uphold a different standard as the are symbolic embodiments of the nation who (usually) inherit the title for life, do not simply temporarily hold office.

Although it is possible the monarchy will survive (namely because the Spanish Constitution is very difficult to amend) it is not looking good for the monarchy right now.

“Still, the warning signs are flashing for the palace. An online poll of 1,000 people released in May showed just 35% supported the monarchy and 52% wanted to switch to a republic.“ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... dern-spain

Although if history is any guide even if the Spanish go to a republic they will probably get bored with that and go back to a monarchy after a few decades.
The Spanish public is notoriously fickle on the matter.
Last edited by Novus America on Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:31 am

Novus America wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:A shame, but ultimately not something that the monarchy can't live past.

Elected officials, after all, get away with much of the same.


Elected official are temporary administrators and not of the same symbolism.
Monarchs are therefore expected to uphold a different standard as the are symbolic embodiments of the nation who (usually) inherit the title for life, do not simply temporarily hold office.

Although it is possible the monarchy will survive (namely because the Spanish Constitution is very difficult to amend) it is not looking good for the monarchy right now.

“Still, the warning signs are flashing for the palace. An online poll of 1,000 people released in May showed just 35% supported the monarchy and 52% wanted to switch to a republic.“ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... dern-spain


That's true, however, it wasn't the current King who did this. In fact, the current King has cut ties with Juan Carlos and has chosen not to receive inheritance from him.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:36 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Elected official are temporary administrators and not of the same symbolism.
Monarchs are therefore expected to uphold a different standard as the are symbolic embodiments of the nation who (usually) inherit the title for life, do not simply temporarily hold office.

Although it is possible the monarchy will survive (namely because the Spanish Constitution is very difficult to amend) it is not looking good for the monarchy right now.

“Still, the warning signs are flashing for the palace. An online poll of 1,000 people released in May showed just 35% supported the monarchy and 52% wanted to switch to a republic.“ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... dern-spain


That's true, however, it wasn't the current King who did this. In fact, the current King has cut ties with Juan Carlos and has chosen not to receive inheritance from him.


Yes, but it has damaged the image of the institution as a whole, the issue with a monarchy is it is very difficult to separate the people from the institution as it is a family based institution.
Cutting ties might not be enough to save things.

That being said maybe the current king can ride it out still, using the difficulty of the amendment process to last long enough, hoping the notoriously fickle Spanish public opinion shifts again.
But the outcome is not certain.
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Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

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Postby Major-Tom » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:38 am

Could he even be prosecuted in Spain?
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Postby Western Fardelshufflestein » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:39 am

Baltenstein wrote:Gentlemen, this might be a good opportunity to restore the true and rightful royal house of Spain:


Ah, yes, the Habsburgs.
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Postby Major-Tom » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:41 am

Baltenstein wrote:Gentlemen, this might be a good opportunity to restore the true and rightful royal house of Spain:



No inbreeding here.
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Postby -Astoria- » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:44 am

Major-Tom wrote:
Baltenstein wrote:Gentlemen, this might be a good opportunity to restore the true and rightful royal house of Spain:



No inbreeding here.

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