Large explosion in Beirut - hundreds reported injured

[-Astoria-]

The information minister has resigned.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

The information minister has resigned.

Can the president resign?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I think it's weird when people call Hezbollah a terror group these days. I don't support them but their main activities most of the time these days include forcing their garbage collection services on people, money laundering, drug and weapons trafficking in South America and Europe, and political corruption in Lebanon. Calling them terrorists to me is glorifying them. They're more like a mafia akin to La Cosa Nostra or Yakuza, but even that may be too great a label and they're more like La Eme or 18th street but with missiles.

For all their talk about protecting Lebanon, they helped ruin it. And all they seem to care about is clinging onto power.

[Novus America]

The PM’s called for early elections in response to the unrest.

Quite correct.

A government bent on maintaining power regardless of the will of the people, would call for a delay in elections. In the chance the people's rage might burn itself out, or succumb to police suppression. Or just to have a little longer in power.

A government more interested in the continuity of government itself, would bring elections forward to offer themselves as a sacrifice and avert a popular uprising.

Clearly these politicians didn't rise to power by being big in game show TV. They understand that fucking up government would lead to them being dead.

Actually they did (completely) fuck it up and people are calling for their deaths...

“The demonstrators erected mock gallows in what were dubbed "Judgment Day" protests, as grief gave way to anger after more than 154 people were killed and dozens more remain missing. Over 5,000 people have been injured.

Effigies of prominent political leaders, including former Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah, were hanged from nooses, in some of the most explicit signs of public outrage the country has seen in years.

Protesters held signs reading, "Here is where the nooses should be hung." The mock gallows have become a key symbol of the demonstrations, which are demanding that those responsible for the Tuesday's blast are held accountable, as well as against corruption and mismanagement of the country.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

The new election will not happen for two months either... so it is a delay, and they might delay it further. The ruling political class in Lebanon is some of the worst of the worst.

[Novus America]

I think it's weird when people call Hezbollah a terror group these days. I don't support them but their main activities most of the time these days include forcing their garbage collection services on people, money laundering, drug and weapons trafficking in South America and Europe, and political corruption in Lebanon. Calling them terrorists to me is glorifying them. They're more like a mafia akin to La Cosa Nostra or Yakuza, but even that may be too great a label and they're more like La Eme or 18th street but with missiles.

For all their talk about protecting Lebanon, they helped ruin it. And all they seem to care about is clinging onto power.

Well they still act as a military type force in Syria and Iraq, killings perceived enemies of Iran and such.

But definitely in a Lebanon they are just a straight criminal gang.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I think it's weird when people call Hezbollah a terror group these days. I don't support them but their main activities most of the time these days include forcing their garbage collection services on people, money laundering, drug and weapons trafficking in South America and Europe, and political corruption in Lebanon. Calling them terrorists to me is glorifying them. They're more like a mafia akin to La Cosa Nostra or Yakuza, but even that may be too great a label and they're more like La Eme or 18th street but with missiles.

For all their talk about protecting Lebanon, they helped ruin it. And all they seem to care about is clinging onto power.

Well they still act as a military type force in Syria and Iraq, killings perceived enemies of Iran and such.

But definitely in a Iran they are just a straight criminal gang.

They were paid off to kill Iran's enemies like how someone pays a Russian hit man to kill their boss. Im pretty convinced that the top brass of Hezbollah are a bunch of sociopathic kleptocrats and their only goal is to use their political power for selfish gain.

[Novus America]

Well they still act as a military type force in Syria and Iraq, killings perceived enemies of Iran and such.

But definitely in a Iran they are just a straight criminal gang.

They were paid off to kill Iran's enemies like how someone pays a Russian hit man to kill their boss. Im pretty convinced that the top brass of Hezbollah are a bunch of sociopathic kleptocrats and their only goal is to use their political power for selfish gain.

Fair point, you are likely right about that.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I swear the Lebanese government is one big pile of corruption and dysfunctionality. It's like if America became a parliamentary system and the only people in our parliament were Donald Trump, Kwame Kilpatrick, Bill Clinton, Ray Nagan, and Marion Barry.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

They were paid off to kill Iran's enemies like how someone pays a Russian hit man to kill their boss. Im pretty convinced that the top brass of Hezbollah are a bunch of sociopathic kleptocrats and their only goal is to use their political power for selfish gain.

Fair point, you are likely right about that.

Like could some of the small guys be useful idiots? Maybe, but behind the scenes Hassan Nasrallah's main goal is probably to continue using the Lebanese government to enrich and privilege himself and punish enemies.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Quite correct.

A government bent on maintaining power regardless of the will of the people, would call for a delay in elections. In the chance the people's rage might burn itself out, or succumb to police suppression. Or just to have a little longer in power.

A government more interested in the continuity of government itself, would bring elections forward to offer themselves as a sacrifice and avert a popular uprising.

Clearly these politicians didn't rise to power by being big in game show TV. They understand that fucking up government would lead to them being dead.

Actually they did (completely) fuck it up and people are calling go their deaths...

You missed the point. Western democracies are so robust that there's almost no fuckup by the leaders which could cause a collapse of the system of government itself. But in Lebanon this is not so.

They should hold an election as soon as possible, so the unrest can be discharged by the voters punishing them at the polls.

The Prime Minister is competent in this at least: he understands that without an early election there is more likely to be a revolution (or military coup). He's sacrificing himself politically, and probably his party too ... because if there's a revolution he'll likely be killed.

“The demonstrators erected mock gallows in what were dubbed "Judgment Day" protests, as grief gave way to anger after more than 154 people were killed and dozens more remain missing. Over 5,000 people have been injured.

Effigies of prominent political leaders, including former Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah, were hanged from nooses, in some of the most explicit signs of public outrage the country has seen in years.

Protesters held signs reading, "Here is where the nooses should be hung." The mock gallows have become a key symbol of the demonstrations, which are demanding that those responsible for the Tuesday's blast are held accountable, as well as against corruption and mismanagement of the country.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

The new election will not happen for two month either... so it is a delay, and they might deliver it further. The ruling political class in Lebanon is some of the worst of the worst.

Thanks for that background. I knew it already, but OK.

Al Jazeera says the Prime Minister wants to bring the election forward.

Your source for the contrary claim that they want to delay it?

Being most familiar with a system of government where the election day is written into the constitution, you may be unfamiliar with the system of movable election days. Basically it's 3 years or 4 years before an election MUST be held, but within limits the majority of parliament can call an election earlier. Even within a few months, though there is usually a requirement of giving some number of weeks notice (for campaigning). That the Lebanese parliament has somehow gotten around that and cancelled at least one election, I presume that requires a supermajority, which they probably don't have now.

Bringing the election forward is the right thing to preserve democracy in Lebanon. Whatever other blunders the government has made, you should at least applaud their willingness to be punished at the polls!

[Novus America]

Actually they did (completely) fuck it up and people are calling go their deaths...

You missed the point. Western democracies are so robust that there's almost no fuckup by the leaders which could cause a collapse of the system of government itself. But in Lebanon this is not so.

They should hold an election as soon as possible, so the unrest can be discharged by the voters punishing them at the polls.

The Prime Minister is competent in this at least: he understands that without an early election there is more likely to be a revolution (or military coup). He's sacrificing himself politically, and probably his party too ... because if there's a revolution he'll likely be killed.

“The demonstrators erected mock gallows in what were dubbed "Judgment Day" protests, as grief gave way to anger after more than 154 people were killed and dozens more remain missing. Over 5,000 people have been injured.

Effigies of prominent political leaders, including former Prime Minister Saad Hariri and Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah, were hanged from nooses, in some of the most explicit signs of public outrage the country has seen in years.

Protesters held signs reading, "Here is where the nooses should be hung." The mock gallows have become a key symbol of the demonstrations, which are demanding that those responsible for the Tuesday's blast are held accountable, as well as against corruption and mismanagement of the country.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

The new election will not happen for two month either... so it is a delay, and they might deliver it further. The ruling political class in Lebanon is some of the worst of the worst.

Thanks for that background. I knew it already, but OK.

Al Jazeera says the Prime Minister wants to bring the election forward.

Your source for the contrary claim that they want to delay it?

Being most familiar with a system of government where the election day is written into the constitution, you may be unfamiliar with the system of movable election days. Basically it's 3 years or 4 years before an election MUST be held, but within limits the majority of parliament can call an election earlier. Even within a few months, though there is usually a requirement of giving some number of weeks notice (for campaigning). That the Lebanese parliament has somehow gotten around that and cancelled at least one election, I presume that requires a supermajority, which they probably don't have now.

Bringing the election forward is the right thing to preserve democracy in Lebanon. Whatever other blunders the government has made, you should at least applaud their willingness to be punished at the polls!

Well yes it is better to bring it forward to a few months out than to wait years, but do you really think an election within the completely corrupt system can save Lebanon? They actually need a revolution. Their entire government system is an beyond saving it appears.

[Novus America]

Even though Hezbollah probably did not deliberately bring in the explosives, (although it has been know to stockpile the chemical elsewhere) given Hezbollah controls the port and the transportation ministry, Hezbollah is definitely responsible.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/m ... s-dangers/

[Nobel Hobos 2]

You missed the point. Western democracies are so robust that there's almost no fuckup by the leaders which could cause a collapse of the system of government itself. But in Lebanon this is not so.

They should hold an election as soon as possible, so the unrest can be discharged by the voters punishing them at the polls.

The Prime Minister is competent in this at least: he understands that without an early election there is more likely to be a revolution (or military coup). He's sacrificing himself politically, and probably his party too ... because if there's a revolution he'll likely be killed.



Thanks for that background. I knew it already, but OK.

Al Jazeera says the Prime Minister wants to bring the election forward.

Your source for the contrary claim that they want to delay it?

Being most familiar with a system of government where the election day is written into the constitution, you may be unfamiliar with the system of movable election days. Basically it's 3 years or 4 years before an election MUST be held, but within limits the majority of parliament can call an election earlier. Even within a few months, though there is usually a requirement of giving some number of weeks notice (for campaigning). That the Lebanese parliament has somehow gotten around that and cancelled at least one election, I presume that requires a supermajority, which they probably don't have now.

Bringing the election forward is the right thing to preserve democracy in Lebanon. Whatever other blunders the government has made, you should at least applaud their willingness to be punished at the polls!

Well yes it is better to bring it forward to a few months out than to wait years, but do you really think an election within the completely corrupt system can save Lebanon? They actually need a revolution. Their entire government system is an beyond saving it appears.

Well I don't like Trump, many of his cabinet, others he's appointed, or Mitch O'Connell. That's pretty much "the government" isn't it?

Therefore your whole system is beyond saving. It should be shut down, and replaced by a prop-rep unicameral parliament and a unitary state. Oh, and the Queen of the Commonwealth should be your Head of State.

It's probably true that just one election won't flush all the shit out of the Lebanese parliament. But it will help.

And "they need a revolution"? Some well-armed minority setting up a dictatorship would be better, than bungling and corrupt representatives of the majority? I think you must hate Lebanon, its people, and everything about it, to wish a revolution on them. Or maybe you just hate democracy.

[Novus America]

Well yes it is better to bring it forward to a few months out than to wait years, but do you really think an election within the completely corrupt system can save Lebanon? They actually need a revolution. Their entire government system is an beyond saving it appears.

Well I don't like Trump, many of his cabinet, others he's appointed, or Mitch O'Connell. That's pretty much "the government" isn't it?

Therefore your whole system is beyond saving. It should be shut down, and replaced by a prop-rep unicameral parliament and a unitary state. Oh, and the Queen of the Commonwealth should be your Head of State.

It's probably true that just one election won't flush all the shit out of the Lebanese parliament. But it will help.

And "they need a revolution"? Some well-armed minority setting up a dictatorship would be better, than bungling and corrupt representatives of the majority? I think you must hate Lebanon, its people, and everything about it, to wish a revolution on them. Or maybe you just hate democracy.

You have a right to advocate for that, but at least the electricity here still runs more than a few hours a day. The situation is not remotely comparable. Also I did not specify what exact form of government they should adopt.

Lebanon is an actual failed state, not simply a country with troubles.

Given the corrupt and Byzantine nature of the Lebanese system it is not a properly functioning democracy either.

And who said a dictatorship? Not all revolutions create one. Sometimes you have to have one, like Ukraine did. Not that it has solved all the problems immediately but it has set a path we’re it can start solving some and did not result in a dictatorship.

Revolutions are a last resort, but sometimes they are absolutely necessary and for the best.

I could say you must hate Lebanon, it’s people and everything about it for wanting to continue the same failed system but you do not. You just fear real change.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Well I don't like Trump, many of his cabinet, others he's appointed, or Mitch O'Connell. That's pretty much "the government" isn't it?

Therefore your whole system is beyond saving. It should be shut down, and replaced by a prop-rep unicameral parliament and a unitary state. Oh, and the Queen of the Commonwealth should be your Head of State.

It's probably true that just one election won't flush all the shit out of the Lebanese parliament. But it will help.

And "they need a revolution"? Some well-armed minority setting up a dictatorship would be better, than bungling and corrupt representatives of the majority? I think you must hate Lebanon, its people, and everything about it, to wish a revolution on them. Or maybe you just hate democracy.

You have a right to advocate for that, but at least the electricity here still runs more than a few hours a day. The situation is not remotely comparable. Also I did not specify what exact form of government they should adopt.

Lebanon is an actual failed state, not simply a country with troubles.

Given the corrupt and Byzantine nature of the Lebanese system it is not a properly functioning democracy either.

And who said a dictatorship? Not all revolutions create one. Sometimes you have to have one, like Ukraine did. Not that it has solved all the problems immediately but it has set a path we’re it can start solving some and did not result in a dictatorship.

Revolutions are a last resort, but sometimes they are absolutely necessary and for the best.

I could say you must hate Lebanon, it’s people and everything about it for wanting to continue the same failed system but you do not. You just fear real change.

I fear revolution. A small well-armed band seizing the capital and the TV station probably wouldn't be the end of it: it would be a horrible and perhaps endless civil war, possibly with neighbours getting involved and/or Israel invading. Advocating for a revolution in the hope it goes well, and shrugging at the likelihood it will makes things much worse for the Lebanese, does not seem to have their best interests at heart.

So what if the electricity is only on two hours a day? That's better than no hours a day because there's a war.

[La Xinga]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/nasra ... ort-637852

Hezbollah says they know nothing.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/nasrallah-says-hezbollah-has-nothing-near-beirut-port-637852

Hezbollah says they know nothing.

They only denied it because someone accused them of it:

Some media outlets spread rumors that Hezbollah was responsible or that it was Hezbollah weapons that caused the tragic event, Nasrallah said. But he said the rumors were not true.

Wouldn't you be more suspicious if in his speech Nasrallah hadn't mentioned the port blast at all?

[La Xinga]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/nasrallah-says-hezbollah-has-nothing-near-beirut-port-637852

Hezbollah says they know nothing.

They only denied it because someone accused them of it:

Some media outlets spread rumors that Hezbollah was responsible or that it was Hezbollah weapons that caused the tragic event, Nasrallah said. But he said the rumors were not true.

Wouldn't you be more suspicious if in his speech Nasrallah hadn't mentioned the port blast at all?

Of course. I feel like Hezbollah may have had something to do with it, whether big or small.

[Novus America]

You have a right to advocate for that, but at least the electricity here still runs more than a few hours a day. The situation is not remotely comparable. Also I did not specify what exact form of government they should adopt.

Lebanon is an actual failed state, not simply a country with troubles.

Given the corrupt and Byzantine nature of the Lebanese system it is not a properly functioning democracy either.

And who said a dictatorship? Not all revolutions create one. Sometimes you have to have one, like Ukraine did. Not that it has solved all the problems immediately but it has set a path we’re it can start solving some and did not result in a dictatorship.

Revolutions are a last resort, but sometimes they are absolutely necessary and for the best.

I could say you must hate Lebanon, it’s people and everything about it for wanting to continue the same failed system but you do not. You just fear real change.

I fear revolution. A small well-armed band seizing the capital and the TV station probably wouldn't be the end of it: it would be a horrible and perhaps endless civil war, possibly with neighbours getting involved and/or Israel invading. Advocating for a revolution in the hope it goes well, and shrugging at the likelihood it will makes things much worse for the Lebanese, does not seem to have their best interests at heart.

So what if the electricity is only on two hours a day? That's better than no hours a day because there's a war.

A revolution is not really the same thing as a coup... (despite the line being very blurry). It needs to be a popular uprising, not just a small group.

You just proved my point. You fear real change and prefer the status quo despite the horrors it is inflicting on the people of Lebanon.

You know many people need electricity to survive yes? “So what if the electricity is on a two hours a day” shows a shocking lack of concern for the people’s plight.

And I guess “so what if the port explodes and hundreds die”?
“So what if there is not enough food to survive”?

Although you are right to fear revolution, sometimes we must face fear. Fearing something does not mean you always hide from it.

I agree a revolution is a huge risk, but I simply see no other way out. Revolution is a last resort yes, but this is the point of last resort. The country is completely imploding already.

[Purpelia]

I fear revolution. A small well-armed band seizing the capital and the TV station probably wouldn't be the end of it: it would be a horrible and perhaps endless civil war, possibly with neighbours getting involved and/or Israel invading. Advocating for a revolution in the hope it goes well, and shrugging at the likelihood it will makes things much worse for the Lebanese, does not seem to have their best interests at heart.

So what if the electricity is only on two hours a day? That's better than no hours a day because there's a war.

A revolution is not really the same thing as a coup... (despite the line being very blurry). It needs to be a popular uprising, not just a small group.

You just proved my point. You fear real change and prefer the status quo despite the horrors it is inflicting on the people of Lebanon.

You know many people need electricity to survive yes? “So what if the electricity is on a two hours a day” shows a shocking lack of concern for the people’s plight.

And I guess “so what if the port explodes and hundreds die”?
“So what if there is not enough food to survive”?

Although you are right to fear revolution, sometimes we must face fear. Fearing something does not mean you always hide from it.

I agree a revolution is a huge risk, but I simply see no other way out. Revolution is a last resort yes, but this is the point of last resort. The country is completely imploding already.

You do realize that this is the middle east we are talking about? Any revolution is only ever going to come from america backed radical islamists also known as ISIS lite. People can live without electricity. They can't live when they are being crucified, decapitated and enslaved by madmen.

[Asayut]

9/10 Caused by Israel to exacerbate the current economic-political crisis.
1/10 Caused by the average Beirut hipster trying to get world attention at the protests and harsh life conditions he personally isn't experiencing (in fact he causes them with his lack of empathy and morals)

[Andsed]

9/10 Caused by Israel to exacerbate the current economic-political crisis.
1/10 Caused by the average Beirut hipster trying to get world attention at the protests and harsh life conditions he personally isn't experiencing (in fact he causes them with his lack of empathy and morals)

There is nothing indicating that this was any kind of deliberate attack. Most evidence points towards this being a freak accident caused by negligence from the Lebanese government.

[-Astoria-]

9/10 Caused by Israel to exacerbate the current economic-political crisis.
1/10 Caused by the average Beirut hipster trying to get world attention at the protests and harsh life conditions he personally isn't experiencing (in fact he causes them with his lack of empathy and morals)

Flag checks out.^poe

[Novus America]

A revolution is not really the same thing as a coup... (despite the line being very blurry). It needs to be a popular uprising, not just a small group.

You just proved my point. You fear real change and prefer the status quo despite the horrors it is inflicting on the people of Lebanon.

You know many people need electricity to survive yes? “So what if the electricity is on a two hours a day” shows a shocking lack of concern for the people’s plight.

And I guess “so what if the port explodes and hundreds die”?
“So what if there is not enough food to survive”?

Although you are right to fear revolution, sometimes we must face fear. Fearing something does not mean you always hide from it.

I agree a revolution is a huge risk, but I simply see no other way out. Revolution is a last resort yes, but this is the point of last resort. The country is completely imploding already.

You do realize that this is the middle east we are talking about? Any revolution is only ever going to come from america backed radical islamists also known as ISIS lite. People can live without electricity. They can't live when they are being crucified, decapitated and enslaved by madmen.

And can people live with food? Apparently a lot of people could not live given they got blown up.
They are already being starved and blown up by the incompetence of madmen like Hezbollah.

And what alternatives do you have? It is already crashing and burning. Staying the course means the country still implodes.

But that last part is a ridiculous straw man. Not all revolutionaries are violent Islamists?
They need a popular uprising. Most Lebanese are not Islamists.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I fear revolution. A small well-armed band seizing the capital and the TV station probably wouldn't be the end of it: it would be a horrible and perhaps endless civil war, possibly with neighbours getting involved and/or Israel invading. Advocating for a revolution in the hope it goes well, and shrugging at the likelihood it will makes things much worse for the Lebanese, does not seem to have their best interests at heart.

So what if the electricity is only on two hours a day? That's better than no hours a day because there's a war.

A revolution is not really the same thing as a coup... (despite the line being very blurry). It needs to be a popular uprising, not just a small group.

You just proved my point. You fear real change and prefer the status quo despite the horrors it is inflicting on the people of Lebanon.

I do not fear real change, I just have a realistic understanding of how long change takes. In any country.

Now I'll grant that a lot of change can be wrought in a short time, by a successful revolutionary government.

But in Lebanon, the chances of a bloodless people's uprising against a democratic government they could just vote out are extremely remote, and the risk of an endless civil war as each factional minority reacts strongly to the prospect of some other factional minority achieving complete power ... ugh, what's the point?

Which faction in Lebanon do you expect to lead the "revolution" and peacefully form a revolutionary government? If you don't know, or after looking for a while you can't pick a faction, then just admit that you're advocating for death and destruction with very slim chances of "real change" at the end of it.

You know many people need electricity to survive yes? “So what if the electricity is on a two hours a day” shows a shocking lack of concern for the people’s plight.

And I guess “so what if the port explodes and hundreds die”?
“So what if there is not enough food to survive”?

Although you are right to fear revolution, sometimes we must face fear. Fearing something does not mean you always hide from it.

I agree a revolution is a huge risk, but I simply see no other way out. Revolution is a last resort yes, but this is the point of last resort. The country is completely imploding already.

The electricity being on for two hours a day is better than it not being on at all, because there's a war.

I'm showing a shocking lack of concern? I'm not the warmonger here. I'm not the chickenhawk revolutionary.