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When is an immigrant group considered to be assimilated?

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:52 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Heloin wrote:There's a question and a point your glossing over. The question is what culture are immigrants assimilating into? Someone from Boston, New York, Houston, New Orleans, and LA are part of radically different cultures within the broad spectrum that's called American culture. The point your glossing over is racism.


I'm really not though. In fact thats what I'm heavily focusing on, which is "when do Americans no longer see an immigrant group as outsiders?" How do we figure that out and at what point does that happen?

There was a time the KKK was going after Italians and Greeks and a time when signs said "Irish need not apply." At what point did people in America accept all these groups as "one of us?"

When they became the larger group.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:05 pm

It's an endpoint.

The difference between integration and assimilation is key as they're two stages on the same spectrum. They're integrated when they speak the language fluently and they do not isolate in social bubbles where they predominantly or exclusively speak to, work with, and marry people from the same place their relatives came from.

They would only be fully assimilated if they stopped considering themselves as even having a hybrid hyphenated identity, considering themselves solely as being "of" the country they live in and being accepted as such.

Lack of integration is a social problem because it creates communities where children are brought up othering the host community and defining themselves at best with indifference to it and at worst against it. Where first and second generations immigrants make genuine attempts to move towards integration then that is the most we can realistically expect because in many respects this is working against most people's natural instincts. And then perhaps at the third or fourth generation they are assimilated. If social policy doesn't eschew notions of multiculturalism and deliberately aim at getting the integrative ball rolling, however, this often won't happen.

If we could avoid bloodied rivers and the violent spasms of wanton destruction that result from cultural anxiety that would be just grand.
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Postby -Astoria- » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:26 pm

When their general behaviour is more or less congruent with the extant society.

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Bruke
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Postby Bruke » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:31 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Heloin wrote:You use the word integrated but what your saying is assimilated. Any group group of something-America has already integrated into American society from Italians, Irish, Chinese, and Hmong. Them not becoming cookie cutter genericised Americans hardly seems a desirable outcome.


What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.


When they hate non-whites as much as the old-stock Americans hate, them, essentially. As noted above, that's been the pattern.

White ethnics had to prove their whiteness, in a sense, by adopting the racism of the old-stock Americans.

To focus on something positive, however, another marker is when the ethnic culture becomes as American as other aspects of American culture: an example is Saint Patrick's Day and how many people become "Irish for a day".
Last edited by Bruke on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Kubra » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:31 pm

When it complains about immigrants. That's only a half joke.
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Postby Kubra » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:33 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's an endpoint.

The difference between integration and assimilation is key as they're two stages on the same spectrum. They're integrated when they speak the language fluently and they do not isolate in social bubbles where they predominantly or exclusively speak to, work with, and marry people from the same place their relatives came from.

They would only be fully assimilated if they stopped considering themselves as even having a hybrid hyphenated identity, considering themselves solely as being "of" the country they live in and being accepted as such.

Lack of integration is a social problem because it creates communities where children are brought up othering the host community and defining themselves at best with indifference to it and at worst against it. Where first and second generations immigrants make genuine attempts to move towards integration then that is the most we can realistically expect because in many respects this is working against most people's natural instincts. And then perhaps at the third or fourth generation they are assimilated. If social policy doesn't eschew notions of multiculturalism and deliberately aim at getting the integrative ball rolling, however, this often won't happen.

If we could avoid bloodied rivers and the violent spasms of wanton destruction that result from cultural anxiety that would be just grand.
what if they have a German last name and like eating soup with meatballs
I mean soup with meatballs is kinda out there for us Anglos
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:37 pm

Bruke wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.


When they hate non-whites as much as the old-stock Americans hate, them, essentially. As noted above, that's been the pattern.

White ethnics had to prove their whiteness, in a sense, by adopting the racism of the old-stock Americans.

To focus on something positive, however, another marker is when the ethnic culture becomes as American as other aspects of American culture: an example is Saint Patrick's Day and how many people become "Irish for a day".


The Irish definitely have been assimilated by America.
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Postby Cetacea » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:00 pm

they're assimilated when the racist stop being assholes and ignore their existence because assimilation is shit that needs to be wiped out.

Theres something like 50 Million German Americans and of course many American traditons like Hamburgers, Christmas Trees and Kindergartens have German origins.

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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:14 pm

It's so subjective to the point where any answer here could both be terribly wrong or totally correct, so to speak. Personally speaking, I see a "group" to be assimilated when as a whole they seem to have a grasp on the language, cultural norms, etc etc. Although, certainly my understanding of it is up for debate.

For instance, I would argue that most Mexican-Americans are totally assimilated, others wouldn't on the basis that many Mexican-American families keep a lot of their cultural practices, traditions etc. It just goes to show how worthless studying the idea of "assimilation is." Immigrants who want to work, want to pay into the system, and who want to learn the language are 110% American in my eyes.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:30 pm

I, as an Italian-American, am fully assimilated. I don't look, sound, or act Italian in any way. Most people never assume I am, which makes total sense. This has to do with my Italian side living outside the ethnic enclaves of New Jersey and New York. Ethnic enclaves prevent assimilation as it results in immigrants having less reason to interact with people outside of their cultural circles, thus leading to new and unique identities. Those who stay inside ethnic enclaves become noticeably different from their fellow Americans, while those outside of them tend to be more generically American. That's not to say the ethnic enclaves aren't American themselves, as they are. The culture of New York City's Italian-American population is vastly different from that of Italy's native Italian population. They're more American than they are Italian, and most Americans recognize and accept this fact.

But groups themselves don't assimilate; Individuals do, and over time either more individuals join them to the point they aren't any different from any other Americans (like German-Americans, which I also belong to) or they stay in their ethnic enclaves and develop their own unique regional cultural identity, such as Irish-Americans (which I also belong to).

Either way, the end result is American regardless as the individuals assimilate to the local culture and the group adapts to it's new cultural environment.
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:32 pm

Cetacea wrote:they're assimilated when the racist stop being assholes and ignore their existence because assimilation is shit that needs to be wiped out.

Theres something like 50 Million German Americans and of course many American traditons like Hamburgers, Christmas Trees and Kindergartens have German origins.


Assimilation is not "shit that needs to be wiped out". Assimilation is necessary for the survival of local cultures and customs. Without assimilation, local customs and cultures are overtaken by foreign ones and systematically destroyed whether intentionally or not. Assimilation to native cultures is necessary for the survival of native cultures.

Just look at Amerindians. Nobody assimilated to their cultures, now they're on the verge of extinction. Most of them already are extinct.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:39 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I, as an Italian-American, am fully assimilated. I don't look, sound, or act Italian in any way. Most people never assume I am, which makes total sense. This has to do with my Italian side living outside the ethnic enclaves of New Jersey and New York. Ethnic enclaves prevent assimilation as it results in immigrants having less reason to interact with people outside of their cultural circles, thus leading to new and unique identities. Those who stay inside ethnic enclaves become noticeably different from their fellow Americans, while those outside of them tend to be more generically American. That's not to say the ethnic enclaves aren't American themselves, as they are. The culture of New York City's Italian-American population is vastly different from that of Italy's native Italian population. They're more American than they are Italian, and most Americans recognize and accept this fact.

But groups themselves don't assimilate; Individuals do, and over time either more individuals join them to the point they aren't any different from any other Americans (like German-Americans, which I also belong to) or they stay in their ethnic enclaves and develop their own unique regional cultural identity, such as Irish-Americans (which I also belong to).

Either way, the end result is American regardless as the individuals assimilate to the local culture and the group adapts to it's new cultural environment.


When do you think americans accepted italians?
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:17 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:I, as an Italian-American, am fully assimilated. I don't look, sound, or act Italian in any way. Most people never assume I am, which makes total sense. This has to do with my Italian side living outside the ethnic enclaves of New Jersey and New York. Ethnic enclaves prevent assimilation as it results in immigrants having less reason to interact with people outside of their cultural circles, thus leading to new and unique identities. Those who stay inside ethnic enclaves become noticeably different from their fellow Americans, while those outside of them tend to be more generically American. That's not to say the ethnic enclaves aren't American themselves, as they are. The culture of New York City's Italian-American population is vastly different from that of Italy's native Italian population. They're more American than they are Italian, and most Americans recognize and accept this fact.

But groups themselves don't assimilate; Individuals do, and over time either more individuals join them to the point they aren't any different from any other Americans (like German-Americans, which I also belong to) or they stay in their ethnic enclaves and develop their own unique regional cultural identity, such as Irish-Americans (which I also belong to).

Either way, the end result is American regardless as the individuals assimilate to the local culture and the group adapts to it's new cultural environment.


When do you think americans accepted italians?

1910's - 1930's, though I did hear people calling them wops as a child

And no, I was not a child in the 1930's. :p
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Aureumterra wrote:Here, the largest minority group is Polish-Icelanders, they are sort of looked down upon and/or discriminated against, sadly. A lot of super far right neo-nazi parties base their entire platforms around the expulsion of the "dirty slavs." The same people also say Christianity is a farce invented by a brown Jew and true Nordic people worship Odin.


There are neo nazis in Iceland?

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:31 pm

Major-Tom wrote:It's so subjective to the point where any answer here could both be terribly wrong or totally correct, so to speak. Personally speaking, I see a "group" to be assimilated when as a whole they seem to have a grasp on the language, cultural norms, etc etc. Although, certainly my understanding of it is up for debate.

For instance, I would argue that most Mexican-Americans are totally assimilated, others wouldn't on the basis that many Mexican-American families keep a lot of their cultural practices, traditions etc. It just goes to show how worthless studying the idea of "assimilation is." Immigrants who want to work, want to pay into the system, and who want to learn the language are 110% American in my eyes.


This, pretty much. Assimilated =/= being seen as "white".
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Postby New haven america » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:04 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Heloin wrote:There's a question and a point your glossing over. The question is what culture are immigrants assimilating into? Someone from Boston, New York, Houston, New Orleans, and LA are part of radically different cultures within the broad spectrum that's called American culture. The point your glossing over is racism.


1. I'm really not though. In fact thats what I'm heavily focusing on, which is "when do Americans no longer see an immigrant group as outsiders?" How do we figure that out and at what point does that happen?

2. There was a time the KKK was going after Italians and Greeks and a time when signs said "Irish need not apply." At what point did people in America accept all these groups as "one of us?"

1. Well if we got by that logic than US citizenship or even permanent residency is seen as enough.
2. 1940's. Ironically part of the Irish and Italian mafia's main goals was to help their ethnic groups be seen in a better light across the US by doing a lot of work to help the general public and help Irish and Italian people get decent jobs that help the community.
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Postby New haven america » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:08 pm

You're question's a bit too broad if you don't take the time to read the OP.

Going by the title... It depends on where you are. A lot of countries like the US and Canada you only need citizenship to be considered integrated/assimilated in the modern era, while in a lot of other areas you will never be because you need to be one of the nation's ethnicities (Super common belief throughout a lot of Europe and Japan), and some won't even allow you to try to integrate/assimilate (China, North Korea, etc...).
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Postby Centrallonia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:31 pm

Geneviev wrote:
Zvyozdny wrote:When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.

Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.


Christmas on the 24, so does the Spanish islands of the Caribbean plus most of Latin America, Portugal and Spain. I would think Italy too but not sure.

Question, when it comes to Germany celebrating Christmas on the 24, does it have to do with the region the German came from. Southern Germany is Catholic while the North is not. All of the places I mentioned above are also majority Catholic.
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Postby Kowani » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:17 pm

A group is assimilated when a large enough portion of the culturally dominant population stops seeing their "otherness" as a mark of inferiority.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:48 pm

Why care about assimilation ? Care about contribution.

That Chinese guy who does not speak your language, but runs a nice restaurant, pays his taxes and causes no troubles ? Why would he need to assimilate ?
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:59 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:Why care about assimilation ? Care about contribution.

That Chinese guy who does not speak your language, but runs a nice restaurant, pays his taxes and causes no troubles ? Why would he need to assimilate ?

Depends on the place, but in some region, if they don't assimilate, they will automatically become the target scapegoat for poorer angry locals to loot during a crisis. Hell, it can still happen even after they assimilated.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:01 am

No-one is truly assimilated until they've met The Borg!

Being assimilated I would define subjectively. It's when someone feels comfortable and accepted in the country. Or as much as others seem to be. Bear in mind it might just be in the area they live, and mainstreamers who come there might not feel all that comfortable or accepted.

Any external measure of assimilation is prone to vary depending on who's judging it. It often comes down to speaking the same language and being familiar with some slang or turns of phrase, the new chum can "pass" with those even if they still have a strong accent and not much vocabulary.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:51 am

When the news and statistics do not mention said group anymore when making statements.

Nobody talks about the Huguenots in Germany(Prussia) and Netherlands anymore, they're assimilated.

Dutch Indonesians are on their way.


Are integrated and assimilated the same btw?
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Postby Shazbotdom » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:11 am

When we all become a part of the Borg Collective.



But in all seriousness, Just because one moves to a new country does not mean that one needs to give up their cultural identity. And we, as citizens of the world, need to understand this.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:53 am

Kubra wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:It's an endpoint.

The difference between integration and assimilation is key as they're two stages on the same spectrum. They're integrated when they speak the language fluently and they do not isolate in social bubbles where they predominantly or exclusively speak to, work with, and marry people from the same place their relatives came from.

They would only be fully assimilated if they stopped considering themselves as even having a hybrid hyphenated identity, considering themselves solely as being "of" the country they live in and being accepted as such.

Lack of integration is a social problem because it creates communities where children are brought up othering the host community and defining themselves at best with indifference to it and at worst against it. Where first and second generations immigrants make genuine attempts to move towards integration then that is the most we can realistically expect because in many respects this is working against most people's natural instincts. And then perhaps at the third or fourth generation they are assimilated. If social policy doesn't eschew notions of multiculturalism and deliberately aim at getting the integrative ball rolling, however, this often won't happen.

If we could avoid bloodied rivers and the violent spasms of wanton destruction that result from cultural anxiety that would be just grand.
what if they have a German last name and like eating soup with meatballs
I mean soup with meatballs is kinda out there for us Anglos


In my youthful radical days this would have been grounds for a pogrom but nowadays any one odd food habit except cannibalism or pineapple on pizza can have a free pass as a treat.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tʜᴇ Mᴏsᴛʟʏ Pᴇᴀᴄᴇғᴜʟ Rɪᴏᴛɪɴɢ ᴏғ Dᴜᴍʙ Iᴅᴇᴏʟᴏɢɪᴇs
¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸ To culture war! The cause of and solution to all of life's problems ¸„¤*˜*¤„¸„¤*˜*¤„¸
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane ~ Marcus Aurelius
♆ P ᴀ x D I ᴀ ʙ ᴏ ʟ ɪ ᴄ ᴀ ♆

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