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When is an immigrant group considered to be assimilated?

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Borderlands of Rojava
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When is an immigrant group considered to be assimilated?

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:00 am

For a week now I've been debating in my head this one topic that I thought of while watching of all shows The Sopranos. I was watching the episode about Columbus Day when I asked myself "at what point is an immigrant group in America considered to be integrated?" Italian Americans have been here for over 100 years now, and while many wouldnt really view them as any different from any other American, many mob films and shows, especially the Sopranos, traffic heavily in stereotypes about Italian Americans. In the Sopranos for example, almost everyone speaks in a New Jersey accent, they all tend to be extremely vulgar, there's spousal abuse and the only characters ever portrayed in a different light from the rest are Tony Soprano's kids, AJ and Meadow. Everyone else is your stereotype of what Italians are supposed to be. So are Italian Americans really integrated and accepted into America? How much stereotyping does it take for an ethnic group to be viewed with hostility or as outsiders? When did such views change regarding ethnics in the United States such as Italians, the Irish, the Poles or Greeks? Imo I honestly don't know. I used to assume Italian Americans had all but melted into the American population but after catching up on several mafia movies when I was under lockdown a few months ago, it still seems like alot of stereoptypes remain and Americans still view Italians as kind of different from everyone else. Let me know your thoughts below.
Last edited by Borderlands of Rojava on Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Zvyozdny » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:04 am

When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.

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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 am

Zvyozdny wrote:When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.

Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:16 am

Zvyozdny wrote:When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.


How does one look like the rest of the country though? Turks can be told apart maybe by their hairstyle or clothes or the fact they speak Turkish, but I would argue that you can often tell who's Italian especially in certain parts of America like New Jersey or New York.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:17 am

Geneviev wrote:
Zvyozdny wrote:When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.

Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.


When did Italian Americans and Greeks and the Irish and Poles start being viewed as white in America? And what does one have to do to be considered a white American?
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Postby Drew Durrnil » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:17 am

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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:21 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.


When did Italian Americans and Greeks and the Irish and Poles start being viewed as white in America? And what does one have to do to be considered a white American?

I think it takes being replaced by a new immigrant group that people dislike more. Germans were discriminated against until there were more immigrants from other countries. It's not really right, but that's the pattern I noticed in history.
Last edited by Geneviev on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:22 am

Geneviev wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
When did Italian Americans and Greeks and the Irish and Poles start being viewed as white in America? And what does one have to do to be considered a white American?

I think it takes being replaced by a new immigrant group that people dislike more. Germans were discriminated against until there were more immigrants from other countries.


I know that happened with the Irish. They were hated when they came to America but then many of them started being racist to black folks and new immigrants from southern and Eastern Europe and after a while America was like "you're good."
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:25 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I think it takes being replaced by a new immigrant group that people dislike more. Germans were discriminated against until there were more immigrants from other countries.


I know that happened with the Irish. They were hated when they came to America but then many of them started being racist to black folks and new immigrants from southern and Eastern Europe and after a while America was like "you're good."

It was the same for a lot of immigrants. The only ones that never had that problem were English.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:31 am

Geneviev wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
I know that happened with the Irish. They were hated when they came to America but then many of them started being racist to black folks and new immigrants from southern and Eastern Europe and after a while America was like "you're good."

It was the same for a lot of immigrants. The only ones that never had that problem were English.


We seem to be going backwards now tbh. Arabs Americans suddenly are viewed as foreign again after being accepted into society in the mid twentieth century.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:38 am

Geneviev wrote:
Zvyozdny wrote:When they look like and act like the dominant ethnic group of that land. For an example, Turks in Germany are not yet integrated because you could probably tell them apart from a real German. But Germans in America are integrated because you probably couldn't tell them apart from any other American. Some would argue that once the immigrants are in that country, they're legitimate citizens of it. I'd disagree and tell them to be real.

Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.

When folks think of germans Integrating into America, they generally are referring to folks who immigrated in the 19th century
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:50 am

The Italians are pretty well integrated into the US in that they've economically advanced enough to no longer have as much of an organized crime problem. When there were few to no opportunities for Italians in the US, it was more profitable to extort their own expatriate communities and occasionally people outside of it. The local police didn't care or looked the other way until there were too many complaints or it became enough of a problem as to result in crackdowns. There wasn't an understanding of omerta and etc. until later when strategies were devised to break that sort of thing.

Most Italians in the US switched over to owning legitimate businesses over time or had their children do things so they wouldn't have to be part of the organized crime lifestyle with all of its inherent risks and dangers.
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Postby Atheris » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:53 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Geneviev wrote:Germans in America are different from other Americans. We speak German, we eat German food, we celebrate Christmas on the 24th, and things like that. We're considered integrated based on race, not because we're more American in terms of culture.

When folks think of germans Integrating into America, they generally are referring to folks who immigrated in the 19th century

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Jokes aside, it's not a question you can get a single answer from, really. A lot of people have different ideas on the definition of integration.
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Postby New Vedan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:10 am

I suppose its diffrent for every group/person. Personally I dont think a immigrant can really be completly "integrated" unless they were raised here. Those that move as adults will always be "outsiders" to some extent, unless perhaps if they were from originally from one of the other Saxon nations. Even then tho it'll take years to be fully assimilated. But the children of immigrants can be fully integrated.

As far as entire ethnic groups are concerned I'd say it's a matter of shedding there homeland's culture and language and adopting American culture and the English language. Intermarrying with the main population dosent hurt things either.

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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:18 am

You use the word integrated but what your saying is assimilated. Any group group of something-America has already integrated into American society from Italians, Irish, Chinese, and Hmong. Them not becoming cookie cutter genericised Americans hardly seems a desirable outcome.
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Postby Aureumterra » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:25 am

Here, the largest minority group is Polish-Icelanders, they are sort of looked down upon and/or discriminated against, sadly. A lot of super far right neo-nazi parties base their entire platforms around the expulsion of the "dirty slavs." The same people also say Christianity is a farce invented by a brown Jew and true Nordic people worship Odin.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:47 am

Aureumterra wrote:Here, the largest minority group is Polish-Icelanders, they are sort of looked down upon and/or discriminated against, sadly. A lot of super far right neo-nazi parties base their entire platforms around the expulsion of the "dirty slavs." The same people also say Christianity is a farce invented by a brown Jew and true Nordic people worship Odin.


There are neo nazis in Iceland?
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:48 am

Heloin wrote:You use the word integrated but what your saying is assimilated. Any group group of something-America has already integrated into American society from Italians, Irish, Chinese, and Hmong. Them not becoming cookie cutter genericised Americans hardly seems a desirable outcome.


What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:52 am

When they're viewed as the same or mostly the same as the previous majority group. Maybe with some minor differences, but mostly regarded as the same or very similar.

Prior to that, they can be 'accepted' if they're still regarded as a wholly different group, although there is likely some blurriness between 'accepted' and 'integrated'.

Edit:
Maybe like; Accepted (different but accepted as part of society) -> Integrated (regarded as very similar to the majority group) ->
Assimilated (near-indistinguishable from the majority group)
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Postby Dominioan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:54 am

It's situational. My dad is a first generation immigrant, and he's more mErIcAn than a few "Real Americans" i've seen
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:55 am

Are they really? It feels like Integration is a goalpost that conservatives keep moving in order to justify discrimination.
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Postby Atheris » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:57 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Heloin wrote:You use the word integrated but what your saying is assimilated. Any group group of something-America has already integrated into American society from Italians, Irish, Chinese, and Hmong. Them not becoming cookie cutter genericised Americans hardly seems a desirable outcome.


What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.

...Then it's not integration. It's assimilation.
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Postby -Ocelot- » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:02 am

When their behavior becomes indistinguishable from the main group's behavior.
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Postby Heloin » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:06 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Heloin wrote:You use the word integrated but what your saying is assimilated. Any group group of something-America has already integrated into American society from Italians, Irish, Chinese, and Hmong. Them not becoming cookie cutter genericised Americans hardly seems a desirable outcome.


What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.

There's a question and a point your glossing over. The question is what culture are immigrants assimilating into? Someone from Boston, New York, Houston, New Orleans, and LA are part of radically different cultures within the broad spectrum that's called American culture. The point your glossing over is racism.
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:10 am

Heloin wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
What I basically mean in a nutshell is "when do these groups join white america," because black Americans still aren't treated the same way or viewed as totally "American" by many folks despite being here for hundreds of years.

There's a question and a point your glossing over. The question is what culture are immigrants assimilating into? Someone from Boston, New York, Houston, New Orleans, and LA are part of radically different cultures within the broad spectrum that's called American culture. The point your glossing over is racism.


I'm really not though. In fact thats what I'm heavily focusing on, which is "when do Americans no longer see an immigrant group as outsiders?" How do we figure that out and at what point does that happen?

There was a time the KKK was going after Italians and Greeks and a time when signs said "Irish need not apply." At what point did people in America accept all these groups as "one of us?"
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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