On blaming religion for Trump

[Solvokina]

What a shame. Too bad I live in Australia

Ah. My bad.

All g

[Neutraligon]

Well I mean Trump also had better tactics than Clinton in the campaign. Also what section of the population did he specifically tap into?

Correctly if I'm wrong, but I think Batman means rural nationalists.

Sorta, I would say the rural poor and generally "uneducated". They have been for a very long time ignored by both parties.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Correctly if I'm wrong, but I think Batman means rural nationalists.

Sorta, I would say the rural poor and generally "uneducated". They have been for a very long time ignored by both parties.

Ah. So not the nationalists, then. I can't exactly... agree.... Look, let's just say that the idea that Trump was elected by the uneducated is... quite the hot take. People might think you're a liberal for it.

Also I mean the rural folk have always been voting republican, so again, nothing new.

[Neutraligon]

Sorta, I would say the rural poor and generally "uneducated". They have been for a very long time ignored by both parties.

Ah. So not the nationalists, then. I can't exactly... agree.... Look, let's just say that the idea that Trump was elected by the uneducated is... quite the hot take. People might think you're a liberal for it.

Also I mean the rural folk have always been voting republican, so again, nothing new.

I may be wrong but I think Trump brought out voters who have not voted before. I left uneducated in quotes for a reason. As to people thinking I am a liberal, by most American definitions I am one.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Ah. So not the nationalists, then. I can't exactly... agree.... Look, let's just say that the idea that Trump was elected by the uneducated is... quite the hot take. People might think you're a liberal for it.

Also I mean the rural folk have always been voting republican, so again, nothing new.

I may be wrong but I think Trump brought out voters who have not voted before. I left uneducated in quotes for a reason. As to people thinking I am a liberal, by most American definitions I am one.

That actually sounds completely reasonable. I can agree with you there, Trump probably swayed people who were on the edge by convincing them that a Clinton presidency would be worse, hell you could argue I was almost one of them at one point in mid-2016.

[Glaristant]

Religion is certainly part of the equation, but it is not the definitive cause behind Trump's ascension to the presidency. Instead, it is merely one of many complex and interlocking factors that led to him beating Clinton in 2016. If one really dives into it, you will see that Trump's victory is the result of years of discontent.disillusionment amongst the traditionally democrat leaning white working class, a democratic candidate(who while strong on paper) failed to connect with the vast majority of her base and independents(Due to perceptions of her being corrupt, a poor campaign message, dubious ties to wall street in an era where such ties are effectively poison, unpopular policy positions etc), overreliance on poorly structured polls, overconfidence, economic and political turmoil, among many, many other things. It is understandable to blame it on religion since the data shows that Trump tended to lead by wide margins in the more religious states, but doing so ignores the arguably more important issue of how Trump's messaging to the white working class(which were more likely to vote for him because he promised to bring back jobs, cut down on immigration which to said voters only created competition for scarce jobs, along with his stance on trade deals such as NAFTA or TPP). Essentially it can be said that Trump won primarily because he appealed to a key voting bloc who felt as if they had been neglected by the democratic party/left behind in the Obama "recovery" while the coastal and immigrant communities appeared to prosper. By playing on their economic fears/desire to see prosperity return to their communities Trump managed to secure the states he needed to best Clinton. Sorry, but the religion factor pales in comparison to that.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

We blame religion for Trump but could we blame Trump for religion?

I mean fr, maybe its the other way around.

[Jedi Council]

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.

However, I do not think we can blame religion for Trump by way of that route. There are plenty of perfectly kind, well adjusted people of faith who find Trump and his policies nearly as abhorrent as I do.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.

I mean, lets look at Trump, he is the personifaction of every single one of the Seven Deadly Sins. He is the most un-Christian man ever elected President. He shamelessly uses religion as a crutch, even when it is clear he has never personally believed, nor even had the slightest understanding of his own supposed faith. He openly admitted his favourite verse from the Bible was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," which is an originally Israelite teaching specifically repudiated by Jesus, and then invented his own passage when he said his real favoruite was "Proverbs, the Chapter Never Bend to Envy," which is not even a real.

Anyone who is actually a devout Christian should not be able to reconcile their faith with supporting someone so evidently ignorant of, and frankly antithetical to, their supposed moral teachings.

[Salus Maior]

Me.

Not surprised at all.

Indeed.

You see, Lima has this sort of unhinged bigotry when it comes to the religious, and tends to try to "prove" that the religious are responsible for nearly every bad thing that has happened under the sun, and this is evident in his post history.

In fact, I'm almost certain that he's made a thread about "religious making Trump happen" before or something close to that.

[Shofercia]

We should thank devoutly religious people for helping to elect and soon to re-elect President Trump. I think its fair to say their support has been among the most unwavering right from the start. And why shouldn't it? Of course the Republicans are the only party offering religious freedom and standing up for traditional values, and among Republicans President Trump stands out above the others for his commitment to those values.

Doesn't Christianity have a history of being staunch against Democracy? What with the "divine right of kings" and whatnot.

Also Trump aint gonna do what you think he will because he's a loose populist lol.

That depends on the religion, but most religious people I know tend to keep religion and politics separate.

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.

However, I do not think we can blame religion for Trump by way of that route. There are plenty of perfectly kind, well adjusted people of faith who find Trump and his policies nearly as abhorrent as I do.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.

I mean, lets look at Trump, he is the personifaction of every single one of the Seven Deadly Sins. He is the most un-Christian man ever elected President. He shamelessly uses religion as a crutch, even when it is clear he has never personally believed, nor even had the slightest understanding of his own supposed faith. He openly admitted his favourite verse from the Bible was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," which is an originally Israelite teaching specifically repudiated by Jesus, and then invented his own passage when he said his real favoruite was "Proverbs, the Chapter Never Bend to Envy," which is not even a real.

Anyone who is actually a devout Christian should not be able to reconcile their faith with supporting someone so evidently ignorant of, and frankly antithetical to, their supposed moral teachings.

Matthew 22:21

Also:

If you're going to vote for Religious Virtue in American Politics, than you might as well not vote. Did Governor Cuomo love his neighbors by exterminating them through placing infected people in elderly homes, a more modern version of British Smallpox Blankets?

Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.

Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.

The majority of people who voted for Trump, did so for one of four reasons:

1. Economics - quite a few of Trump voters benefited from his economic plan, at least until COVID-19 hit
2. Attention Seeking - the need to have someone pretend to pay attention to them, and empower, or at least pretend to empower them
3. Anti-Hilary Clinton - this is the "anyone but Hilary" crowd
4. Anti-establishment - Hilary was establishment, Donald wasn't

I can't think of a single Trump voter that I know, that didn't have at least one of those four reasons play a key role in his/her vote. Even if a person is deeply religious, said person has two choices: disenfranchise himself/herself, (because let's face it, who was the last truly Christian President? JFK? Ford?) and let those who aren't deeply religious have even more voting power, or let the political reality dictate the choice.

[Jedi Council]

Doesn't Christianity have a history of being staunch against Democracy? What with the "divine right of kings" and whatnot.

Also Trump aint gonna do what you think he will because he's a loose populist lol.

That depends on the religion, but most religious people I know tend to keep religion and politics separate.

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.

However, I do not think we can blame religion for Trump by way of that route. There are plenty of perfectly kind, well adjusted people of faith who find Trump and his policies nearly as abhorrent as I do.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.

I mean, lets look at Trump, he is the personifaction of every single one of the Seven Deadly Sins. He is the most un-Christian man ever elected President. He shamelessly uses religion as a crutch, even when it is clear he has never personally believed, nor even had the slightest understanding of his own supposed faith. He openly admitted his favourite verse from the Bible was "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth," which is an originally Israelite teaching specifically repudiated by Jesus, and then invented his own passage when he said his real favoruite was "Proverbs, the Chapter Never Bend to Envy," which is not even a real.

Anyone who is actually a devout Christian should not be able to reconcile their faith with supporting someone so evidently ignorant of, and frankly antithetical to, their supposed moral teachings.

Matthew 22:21

Also:

If you're going to vote for Religious Virtue in American Politics, than you might as well not vote. Did Governor Cuomo love his neighbors by exterminating them through placing infected people in elderly homes, a more modern version of British Smallpox Blankets?

Religious Christians- and other religious people- have always cared more about a leaders policies than their personal behavior. This isn't new. Sometimes it's theologically justified(Roman Catholicism, for example) sometimes it's not(most Arminian protestants), and sometimes the denomination in question acts all confused when you ask them to justify it theologically, but it is a universal rule.

Blaming religion for Trump is like blaming science for tear gas.

The majority of people who voted for Trump, did so for one of four reasons:

1. Economics - quite a few of Trump voters benefited from his economic plan, at least until COVID-19 hit
2. Attention Seeking - the need to have someone pretend to pay attention to them, and empower, or at least pretend to empower them
3. Anti-Hilary Clinton - this is the "anyone but Hilary" crowd
4. Anti-establishment - Hilary was establishment, Donald wasn't

I can't think of a single Trump voter that I know, that didn't have at least one of those four reasons play a key role in his/her vote. Even if a person is deeply religious, said person has two choices: disenfranchise himself/herself, (because let's face it, who was the last truly Christian President? JFK? Ford?) and let those who aren't deeply religious have even more voting power, or let the political reality dictate the choice.

I dont disagree with almost anything you say, as none of it changes the inherent hypocrisy that Diopolis pointed out and that I did as well.

Religious people who vote for someone they find personally repugnant because of policies are incredibly hypocritical, as anyone in that situation, religious or otherwise would be.

You are correct in saying that the primary reasons people voted for Trump are not religious, but one cannot deny that the large majority of the evangelical Christians in America voted for someone who embodies what they are supposed to hate. That is a fact. Why religion can thus be at least somewhat faulted for Trump is that it convinces people who would otherwise not support someone, to support someone.

Taking it another way, if the exact embodiment of my policy views existed, but was entirely antithetical to my personal moral beliefs, I could not vote for that person.

This brings us to the point you raise about religious people having the choice to either be hypocrites, or disenfranchise themselves. That's a false choice. The US upset system is incredibly resistant to change, but that doesnt mean one should not try to do so.

[Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire]

Doesn't Christianity have a history of being staunch against Democracy? What with the "divine right of kings" and whatnot.

Also Trump aint gonna do what you think he will because he's a loose populist lol.

That depends on the religion, but most religious people I know tend to keep religion and politics separate.

I was talking more historically. Modern Christianity has certainly been declawed by 400 years of secular thinking and the separation of church and state, but Christianity historically is against Democracy.

And also the American Revolution and French Revolution basically erased Christianity's autocratic tendencies by destroying that idea of the "divine right of kings."

[Shofercia]

That depends on the religion, but most religious people I know tend to keep religion and politics separate...

The majority of people who voted for Trump, did so for one of four reasons:

1. Economics - quite a few of Trump voters benefited from his economic plan, at least until COVID-19 hit
2. Attention Seeking - the need to have someone pretend to pay attention to them, and empower, or at least pretend to empower them
3. Anti-Hilary Clinton - this is the "anyone but Hilary" crowd
4. Anti-establishment - Hilary was establishment, Donald wasn't

I can't think of a single Trump voter that I know, that didn't have at least one of those four reasons play a key role in his/her vote. Even if a person is deeply religious, said person has two choices: disenfranchise himself/herself, (because let's face it, who was the last truly Christian President? JFK? Ford?) and let those who aren't deeply religious have even more voting power, or let the political reality dictate the choice.

I dont disagree with almost anything you say, as none of it changes the inherent hypocrisy that Diopolis pointed out and that I did as well.

Religious people who vote for someone they find personally repugnant because of policies are incredibly hypocritical, as anyone in that situation, religious or otherwise would be.

You are correct in saying that the primary reasons people voted for Trump are not religious, but one cannot deny that the large majority of the evangelical Christians in America voted for someone who embodies what they are supposed to hate. That is a fact. Why religion can thus be at least somewhat faulted for Trump is that it convinces people who would otherwise not support someone, to support someone.

Taking it another way, if the exact embodiment of my policy views existed, but was entirely antithetical to my personal moral beliefs, I could not vote for that person.

This brings us to the point you raise about religious people having the choice to either be hypocrites, or disenfranchise themselves. That's a false choice. The US upset system is incredibly resistant to change, but that doesnt mean one should not try to do so.

To quote Matthew 22:21:

Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

As one of my protests against Chief Justice Roberts, I've argued that religious buildings should have the same protections as casinos in Nevada. Using your logic, one could argue that said argument is at odds with Christianity, since I'm treating houses where sin might take place on par with houses of worship, but according to the US Constitution, they are required to receive equal treatment. You can be a hard core religious person in your life, serve as an inspiration to your community, but when you're dealing with politicians, dealing with sinners and liars is, sadly, par for the course.

It takes time to upset the two party system, and it has to start on in local elections. So should Christians be forced to choose between disenfranchisement and hypocrisy for the two decade long process? There is no political model in existence that shows that neither a Republican, nor a Democrat, will be elected president until 2040, so the answer is - of course not, and that thought is absurd. One can work to change the system and choose the best option out of the crap that's currently available; the two are not contradictory, and I think that Jesus stated the Caesar Quote, mentioned above, precisely for situations like this one.

Those who vote for Trump on the grounds of morality are hypocrites. Those who vote for Trump because they genuinely believe that it's the only way to save their cities' livelihoods, are not. That's where I stand on the issue. I live in California, so maybe I'll support Kanye, because he's going West...

That depends on the religion, but most religious people I know tend to keep religion and politics separate.

I was talking more historically. Modern Christianity has certainly been declawed by 400 years of secular thinking and the separation of church and state, but Christianity historically is against Democracy.

And also the American Revolution and French Revolution basically erased Christianity's autocratic tendencies by destroying that idea of the "divine right of kings."

Depends on the religion. In Russian Culture, we had religious leaders confirm Csars and Emperors, but not elect them - that was left to the public, to political games of the Princes, or Palace schemers, depending on the time period. I doubt that Dutch Protestants were too keen on autocratic rule, and the early abolitionists were Christians. You cannot simply paint an entire religion with broad strokes.

To follow the path that you're suggesting, we must equate Locke with Hobbes, as they were both English Philosophers of a similar time period, but that's simply untrue. The "Divine Right" of Kings was bound to be destroyed, irrespective of the protection that said monarchs claimed they enjoyed, because autocracy is unsustainable in the long term.

[Punished UMN]

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the tens of millions spent on campaigning, manipulation of conservative media by think tanks, etc.

[Region of Dwipantara]

Doesn't Christianity have a history of being staunch against Democracy? What with the "divine right of kings" and whatnot.

Religious interpretation can change significantly according to the era and place. The Islamic Golden Age is a golden age because rationalism and logic is the norm, the state is relatively secular, freedom of speech existed, and religious interpretations is dominated by scientists who advocated for reason over revelation. Everything fell apart after Islamist conservativism returned though, where scientific intellectuals was persecuted and their works destroyed by religious zealots (Ibn Rushd even famously declared "ideas have wings!" when the radical Islamists was burning his books). Today's Christianity that supports democratic ideals is fine.

[Page]

American Evangelical Christianity stands behind the Republican Party with near unconditional loyalty, and despite Trump being a man who worships nothing but himself, he benefits as much as any other Republican.

[Geneviev]

American Evangelical Christianity stands behind the Republican Party with near unconditional loyalty, and despite Trump being a man who worships nothing but himself, he benefits as much as any other Republican.

My American, evangelical church has never supported Trump, and generally supports both parties, depending on the person. You can't generalize these things, because there are Christians who have higher expectations. So no, Trump isn't the fault of religion.

[Ammostan]

As a Christian, I like Trump because he ISN'T constantly telling me that I am a stupid inbred racist troglodyte.

[Vassenor]

As a Christian, I like Trump because he ISN'T constantly telling me that I am a stupid inbred racist troglodyte.

Neither is anyone else though.

[Ammostan]

As a Christian, I like Trump because he ISN'T constantly telling me that I am a stupid inbred racist troglodyte.

Neither is anyone else though.

Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

[Vassenor]

Neither is anyone else though.

Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

You're getting straw on the carpet.

[Ammostan]

Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

You're getting straw on the carpet.

Buddy, if you need me to cite examples of blue team's anti-Christian rhetoric you must be new to the internet.

[Geneviev]

As a Christian, I like Trump because he ISN'T constantly telling me that I am a stupid inbred racist troglodyte.

As a Christian, I haven't had anyone tell me that. And when people pointed out bigotry in my views, they were right. Trump is not a Christian, and he works against Christianity.

[Vassenor]

You're getting straw on the carpet.

Buddy, if you need me to cite examples of blue team's anti-Christian rhetoric you must be new to the internet.

Or you're making shit up for the sake of appearing oppressed.

But perhaps you can explain what parts of your views have been considered bigoted and how they actually aren't.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I would argue that Trump can be blamed for religion. Many people I knew were atheists before Trump but thanks to him, even they're praying to God begging him to save them.