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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:34 pm

Ankras wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.


Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

The rights of individual business owners are irrelevant in the scheme of the discrimination of entire populations of people. I do not sympathize.


this is a trend Im noticing a lot with Americans, particularly the radicalized south. To them Civil Liberties not only means being allowed to have discriminatory beliefs but also to ACT ON THEM.
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:34 pm

As much as I have more to weigh in on about antidiscrimination laws as they apply to businesses, I don't think it has much to do with the topic, guys.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:36 pm

Necroghastia wrote:As much as I have more to weigh in on about antidiscrimination laws as they apply to businesses, I don't think it has much to do with the topic, guys.


Yeah, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:37 pm

Necroghastia wrote:As much as I have more to weigh in on about antidiscrimination laws as they apply to businesses, I don't think it has much to do with the topic, guys.


coming down back on topic, I think the main post is a case of confusing correlation with causation. Another explanation is the history of the deep south and their roots in the confederacy that could be why they support Trump who is blatantly a white supremacist or how the Abrahamic religion is widespread in general.
Last edited by Nevertopia on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ankras
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Postby Ankras » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:40 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Ankras wrote:
Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

The rights of individual business owners are irrelevant in the scheme of the discrimination of entire populations of people. I do not sympathize.


this is a trend Im noticing a lot with Americans, particularly the radicalized south. To them Civil Liberties not only means being allowed to have discriminatory beliefs but also to ACT ON THEM.


It is a result of the individualistic focus of American capitalism that determines that one person's right to deny a service because they "own the property" should outpace the right of entire of masses of people to that service. It doesn't have to be this way and in many countries it isn't however. "I should have the right..." was and is used against organized labor in the south and across the nation. I'm sure old Fred Trump would have said it before the "mob" forced him to desegregate his properties.

Edit: Yea back to the topic
Last edited by Ankras on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:44 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:As much as I have more to weigh in on about antidiscrimination laws as they apply to businesses, I don't think it has much to do with the topic, guys.


Yeah, I don't even know what we're talking about anymore.


How long have you been here? ;)

The op was not that great anyway. Though this is a tangent which I will withdraw. People who believe in the myth of the free market tend to be not convinced by anything.
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Ankras
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Postby Ankras » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:44 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:As much as I have more to weigh in on about antidiscrimination laws as they apply to businesses, I don't think it has much to do with the topic, guys.


coming down back on topic, I think the main post is a case of confusing correlation with causation. Another explanation is the history of the deep south and their roots in the confederacy that could be why they support Trump who is blatantly a white supremacist or how the Abrahamic religion is widespread in general.


My state has been in court for racial gerrymandering several times over the years. Voter suppression against the equally religious black populations of the south is a massive factor gerrymandering or no. That is alongside the confederate identity preserved by the KKK and Daughters of the Confederacy formed Lost Cause theory.
Last edited by Ankras on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tombradyonia
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Founded: Jul 15, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tombradyonia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:45 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Ankras wrote:
Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

The rights of individual business owners are irrelevant in the scheme of the discrimination of entire populations of people. I do not sympathize.


this is a trend Im noticing a lot with Americans, particularly the radicalized south. To them Civil Liberties not only means being allowed to have discriminatory beliefs but also to ACT ON THEM.


They believe in freedom from consequences of their actions.
Neither freedom of speech, nor freedom of doing business has ever meant freedom from consequences if one behaves a certain way.

in the Old South, it was separate and decidedly unequal.
Also, if any of those uppity folks ever dared to set up a competing business, and even remotely looked like they might succeed, the law would ensure that this business would be shut down quickly or intimidated into doing so.
Last edited by Tombradyonia on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nevertopia
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Founded: May 27, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:46 pm

Ankras wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
coming down back on topic, I think the main post is a case of confusing correlation with causation. Another explanation is the history of the deep south and their roots in the confederacy that could be why they support Trump who is blatantly a white supremacist or how the Abrahamic religion is widespread in general.


My state has been in court for racial gerrymandering several times over the years. Voter suppression against the equally religious black populations of the south is a massive factor gerrymandering or no. That is alongside the confederate identity preserved by the KKK and Daughters of the Confederacy formed Lost Cause theory.


so its not rooted in religion, theyre just evil.
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:47 pm

Local ordinances win over your views.

It's simple really. You are championing the right to exclude people over race, gender and sexuality.

Nobody is suggesting you can't pick what to sell or what service to provide.


Those ordinances are wrong, but mob rule declares that they are enforced.
Yes, I am championing that right. I have never said that I wasn't. I also will repeat that I DO NOT THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.[/quote]

You can't have it both ways. Think about. I don't think this store should be white only. But, the owner should have that right.

You are telling me who I MUST provide those services TO.


I get it. You don't like the idea of having to serve darkies or gays. This is why we have laws. As long as they aren't causing problems; it doesn't matter. You still get money.

Repeat darkie and gay customers are a bad thing?


If a racist/anti-gay person doesn't want to do business with them, then yeah in that context I suppose he would consider it bad.


Again. The Net is a perfect solution. You don't have to interact with them. Then again he might get upset his products are going to them.

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

Do you have an open sign?


And we're back to this. Again, my definition of Open is not the same as your definition of Open. Your definition is a quick hop skip and a jump to the famous cake baker from the ever mentioned example having a government man grabbing his hands an FORCING him to perform an action.


Your definition is irrelevant. If you don't like it, get the law changed.

The case is known. He is not a famous baker. His work is actually mediocre for the most part. Forcing him? Seriously? He made cakes to sell and OMFG somebody wanted to buy one. The horror of it all. Making money.[/quote]


*slams head on desk*

STOP. SAYING. I'M. RACIST. I have never said anything that is racist. Allowing someone to be a racist is not and never will be the same as saying that they should be one, not matter how hard you believe it or no matter how hard you want discredit me whether you believe I am dog-whistling or not. We have been brought back yet again to the main topic of contention, characterizing Trump supporters as awful terrible people simply for believing in something that you do not.

As far as the law goes, I already said that the law is wrong. What's your point? I lack the power to change the law, specifically because of mob rule.

The cake baker didn't want to do something and the gay couple wanted the government to force him to do that very thing. If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't want to wear it. How long till gay bakers are forced to make a cake that says GAY MARRIAGE SHOULDN'T EXIST?

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-Astoria-
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby -Astoria- » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:49 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Ankras wrote:
Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

The rights of individual business owners are irrelevant in the scheme of the discrimination of entire populations of people. I do not sympathize.


this is a trend Im noticing a lot with Americans, particularly the radicalized south. To them Civil Liberties not only means being allowed to have discriminatory beliefs but also to ACT ON THEM.

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Ankras
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Postby Ankras » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
Ankras wrote:
My state has been in court for racial gerrymandering several times over the years. Voter suppression against the equally religious black populations of the south is a massive factor gerrymandering or no. That is alongside the confederate identity preserved by the KKK and Daughters of the Confederacy formed Lost Cause theory.


so its not rooted in religion, theyre just evil.


I would say it is a bit more complex than that. The Democrats here in Alabama are not amazing themselves at building a base and are very capable of bending over to the Republicans on issues of LGBT rights as State Representative Rolanda Hollis exemplifies.

There is a sizable portion of people of all races in Alabama who are apathetic.

Doug Jones politicized many people to vote because Roy Moore was just that bad.
Last edited by Ankras on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tombradyonia
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Founded: Jul 15, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tombradyonia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:54 pm

Ammostan wrote:The cake baker didn't want to do something and the gay couple wanted the government to force him to do that very thing. If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't want to wear it. How long till gay bakers are forced to make a cake that says GAY MARRIAGE SHOULDN'T EXIST?


The cake baker was probably a vile racist seeking to hide his vitriolic racism behind claims of "freedom of religion".
Your comparison is ludicrous.

If you don't want any sort of regulation at all, then I'm gonna go into your business and seize it as mine. Since there is no regulation, there is no business register of any kind and you'd have a hard time proving you were the legitimate business owner. Especially if me and my friends form a militia which is larger and stronger than that of you and your friends. And that is basically anarchy or warlordism. No regulations? Okay, but be prepared to accept the inevitable consequences.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:55 pm

Ammostan wrote:
*slams head on desk*

STOP. SAYING. I'M. RACIST. I have never said anything that is racist. Allowing someone to be a racist is not and never will be the same as saying that they should be one, not matter how hard you believe it or no matter how hard you want discredit me whether you believe I am dog-whistling or not. We have been brought back yet again to the main topic of contention, characterizing Trump supporters as awful terrible people simply for believing in something that you do not.

As far as the law goes, I already said that the law is wrong. What's your point? I lack the power to change the law, specifically because of mob rule.

The cake baker didn't want to do something and the gay couple wanted the government to force him to do that very thing. If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't want to wear it. How long till gay bakers are forced to make a cake that says GAY MARRIAGE SHOULDN'T EXIST?


calm down, all you're being asked to do is follow anti-discriminatory laws. You can pack it up and decide you've made enough money and not make anymore, you just cant not do business with someone because you don't like their skin color or who theyre dating.
Last edited by Nevertopia on Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:55 pm

They believe in freedom from consequences of their actions.
Neither freedom of speech, nor freedom of doing business has ever meant freedom from consequences if one behaves a certain way.


Nope. I just disagree in what the consequences should be. I believe you go out of business because people don't want to do business with racists. You believe you should go out of business because the government says so.

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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:56 pm

Ammostan wrote:
They believe in freedom from consequences of their actions.
Neither freedom of speech, nor freedom of doing business has ever meant freedom from consequences if one behaves a certain way.


Nope. I just disagree in what the consequences should be. I believe you go out of business because people don't want to do business with racists. You believe you should go out of business because the government says so.


Yes, I believe you should go out of business because you broke the anti-discriminatory law that the government is best equipped to uphold. Glad we cleared that up.
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Tombradyonia
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Postby Tombradyonia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:00 pm

Ammostan wrote:
They believe in freedom from consequences of their actions.
Neither freedom of speech, nor freedom of doing business has ever meant freedom from consequences if one behaves a certain way.


Nope. I just disagree in what the consequences should be. I believe you go out of business because people don't want to do business with racists. You believe you should go out of business because the government says so.


I do not at all believe he should go out of business. I believe that once he started a business and opened it to the public he should have had a reasonable expectation that the scenario that happened, could and eventually would happen.
If he didn't believe in that sort of thing, he shouldn't have opened up to the public to begin with. Start a private bakery club or whatever, fine.

If I had a business, my motto would simply be "if you are buying, I'm selling", I wouldn't give a rat's posterior if you were wearing six MAGA hats or believed in Abrahamic fairytales. That money is a good as any other customer's money.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:02 pm

back on topic, I think this whole tangent with Ammostan is indicative of the real problem outlined by the first post. Civil Liberties are being used as an excuse to carry out discrimination.
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Ankras
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Postby Ankras » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:07 pm

When running in the Democratic Primaries, Reverend Jesse Jackson coined the phrase "margin of despair" to explain this apathy. I encourage people to watch this speech to see exactly what he meant. He uses a very religious premise notably.

This margin of despair is created not just by the "fracture in our coalition" as he puts but by the voter suppression employed in southern states.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:09 pm

It's not exactly the best correlation to use, there will always be religious Trump supporters and religious Biden supporters.

All this map really demonstrates is that states with a heavy evangelical population tend to vote Republican, not much else. Religion shouldn't be blamed for Trump's rise to power, really, it's such a ridiculous leap of faith (no pun intended).
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:10 pm

Nevertopia wrote:back on topic, I think this whole tangent with Ammostan is indicative of the real problem outlined by the first post. Civil Liberties are being used as an excuse to carry out discrimination.


The tangent was not totally unrelated however. As we have seen in this thread Christians are called bigots and other forms of nastiness, which leads to the natural result of us voting for the guy who isn't telling us we're a basket of deplorables.

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:15 pm

I'm pretty ruthlessly anti-theist, and I don't think religion is responsible for Trump. I think the sort of people who like Trump are merely the same sort of people who have an easier time rationalizing their own bad behavior with religion, and indeed, bad decisions in general tend to rely heavily on religious justifications specifically because religion is one of the few areas in life where we act like it's okay to not make any sense.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:17 pm

Tombradyonia wrote:They believe in freedom from consequences of their actions.
Neither freedom of speech, nor freedom of doing business has ever meant freedom from consequences if one behaves a certain way.

Consider this postion "You have the freedom to marry who you want, but if you marry someone I disapprove of you should be imprisoned. The freedom to marry isn't a freedom from consequences"
I think you'll agree that that completely undermines any meaningful right to marriage. The whole point of a freedom, after all, is that the government cannot punish you for exercising it. If a freedom does not include so called "freedom from consequences" it is no freedom at all.

EDIT: on topic; You got it completely wrong, the evangelical wing is the wing that Trump has had the most trouble with, beside the bush era neocons. There's a reason Mitt Romney: last hurrah of american evangelicalism, was the only republican to vote to impeach him. Trump broke away from the evangelical wing by his support for LGBT rights.
Last edited by Aclion on Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:18 pm

Ammostan wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:back on topic, I think this whole tangent with Ammostan is indicative of the real problem outlined by the first post. Civil Liberties are being used as an excuse to carry out discrimination.


The tangent was not totally unrelated however. As we have seen in this thread Christians are called bigots and other forms of nastiness, which leads to the natural result of us voting for the guy who isn't telling us we're a basket of deplorables.

I'd like to point out that nobody in this thread has attacked Christians.
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Centai Mal
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Founded: May 19, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:21 pm

Ammostan wrote:
Having anti-discrimination laws isn't the same as compelling you to sell to someone who can't properly make a transaction.


I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.

Then you shouldn’t open a business. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I’m a firefighter. I personally have a problem with racists, transphobes, and other brands of bigots, and we actually have a Nazi in town who walks around in a fucking SS uniform. I do my job and don’t refuse to respond to emergency calls at his house, because A) I’m not an asshole, and B) that’s the law.

I have no problem with people in non-emergency jobs refusing to serve you for a choice, but when you have no say in how you are (disability, sexuality, race) that shit should be illegal.
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