On blaming religion for Trump

[Centai Mal]

Then don't tell me I can't enter your store.

Nobody has an issue with you ejecting somebody who is disruptive, making outrageous demands, arguing over the price, etc.

Being black or gay? Not a reason.

not sure where you guys are from but in my country refusing services to someone based on sexuality, ethnicity, etc is illegal.

It’s not in the US, because the evangelicals like using their religion as an excuse to discriminate and they’re reliable voters

[Ammostan]

Then don't tell me I can't enter your store.

Nobody has an issue with you ejecting somebody who is disruptive, making outrageous demands, arguing over the price, etc.

Being black or gay? Not a reason.

The reason is that it belongs to me and not to you. See this is the problem, you believe that the business is "open to the public". I believe the store is open to whoever the owner wants to do business with because I believe in voluntary transactions, not the government mandating that I MUST do business with someone.

No historical civil rights activist here in AL or the deep south would see a difference between your willingness to protect the rights of racists to be racist and the racists who want to be racist.I can guarantee you that much.

I'm not the thought police. I don't get to legislate the content of people's hearts.

[Nevertopia]

Then don't tell me I can't enter your store.

Nobody has an issue with you ejecting somebody who is disruptive, making outrageous demands, arguing over the price, etc.

Being black or gay? Not a reason.

The reason is that it belongs to me and not to you. See this is the problem, you believe that the business is "open to the public". I believe the store is open to whoever the owner wants to do business with because I believe in voluntary transactions, not the government mandating that I MUST do business with someone.

No historical civil rights activist here in AL or the deep south would see a difference between your willingness to protect the rights of racists to be racist and the racists who want to be racist.I can guarantee you that much.

I'm not the thought police. I don't get to legislate the content of people's hearts.

I disagree, being gay or black isnt grounds to refuse service.

[Ammostan]

The reason is that it belongs to me and not to you. See this is the problem, you believe that the business is "open to the public". I believe the store is open to whoever the owner wants to do business with because I believe in voluntary transactions, not the government mandating that I MUST do business with someone.



I'm not the thought police. I don't get to legislate the content of people's hearts.

I disagree, being gay or black isnt grounds to refuse service.

Isn't it great that you're free to disagree and don't have a man with a gun and a uniform standing over you telling you what you can and can't say?

[Ankras]

not sure where you guys are from but in my country refusing services to someone based on sexuality, ethnicity, etc is illegal.

It’s not in the US, because the evangelicals like using their religion as an excuse to discriminate and they’re reliable voters

I would hesitate to attribute all discrimination to Evangelicals. Several Democrats here in Alabama like the infamous Representative Rolanda Hollis were quite busy agreeing with Republicans that religious institutions should be able to bar gay couples from adopting. Complicity is very much an element of the discussion.

[Centai Mal]

I disagree, being gay or black isnt grounds to refuse service.

Isn't it great that you're free to disagree and don't have a man with a gun and a uniform standing over you telling you what you can and can't say?

I love how that’s not even remotely what we’re arguing. Look how far you’ve had to skew this to even sound reasonable

[Tombradyonia]

You don't want free enterprise, you want feudalism. You want business owners to be allowed to do whatever they want, including things such as putting arsenic in sweets, or paying starvation wages, forcing people into unlimited overtime, maintaining extremely unsafe work environments and so on. Back to the 19th century eh? Bring in the Pinkertons!

You're equally free not to do business with them.

A business decides to dump its toxic waste near the local ground water. The people who drink this water get sick, some even die. Yet your idea is "the survivors can choose not to do business with them".
And by your logic, why wouldn't a business be allowed to dump any toxic waste anywhere they want? It is their business, after all.

You probably also believe that a court case between a single mother of three and a multi billion dollar corporation with a dedicated legal team is a fair fight.

[The Black Forrest]

Then don't tell me I can't enter your store.

Nobody has an issue with you ejecting somebody who is disruptive, making outrageous demands, arguing over the price, etc.

Being black or gay? Not a reason.

The reason is that it belongs to me and not to you. See this is the problem, you believe that the business is "open to the public". I believe the store is open to whoever the owner wants to do business with because I believe in voluntary transactions, not the government mandating that I MUST do business with someone.

You own the land or are you renting space?

Local ordinances win over your views.

Voluntary transactions? Why do you not like making money? Seriously, would you like if if the police/fire department and isurance companies refused you because they don't like racists?

Seriously; if they got a problem with skin color or sexuality; the Net frees them having their feelings hurt......then again; it's harder to discriminate if you can't see what the person looks like.

No historical civil rights activist here in AL or the deep south would see a difference between your willingness to protect the rights of racists to be racist and the racists who want to be racist.I can guarantee you that much.

I'm not the thought police. I don't get to legislate the content of people's hearts.

*shrugs* it's why laws exist. It doesn't matter what you think. Especially when considering a majority of the people are against your views.....

[Nevertopia]

I disagree, being gay or black isnt grounds to refuse service.

Isn't it great that you're free to disagree and don't have a man with a gun and a uniform standing over you telling you what you can and can't say?

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

[Ammostan]

You own the land or are you renting space?

Local ordinances win over your views.

Voluntary transactions? Why do you not like making money? Seriously, would you like if if the police/fire department and isurance companies refused you because they don't like racists?

Seriously; if they got a problem with skin color or sexuality; the Net frees them having their feelings hurt......then again; it's harder to discriminate if you can't see what the person looks like.

THIS! This is my original point of contention!!! I'm being characterized as a racist simply because I don't want to thought police actual racists! THIS IS WHY I FAVOR TRUMP. Jeeze.

As far as making money goes, it doesn't matter what you think is sound business. What matters is that the business owner is free to make his own choices and thereby succeed or fail. As far as the health and safety pigeon hole thing going on here, I'd say that if I kill my customers with arsenic and toxic waste I'd be guilty of murder which is already illegal. Also, I wouldn't y'know... have repeat customers.

[Ammostan]

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

[The Black Forrest]

You own the land or are you renting space?

Local ordinances win over your views.

Voluntary transactions? Why do you not like making money? Seriously, would you like if if the police/fire department and isurance companies refused you because they don't like racists?

Seriously; if they got a problem with skin color or sexuality; the Net frees them having their feelings hurt......then again; it's harder to discriminate if you can't see what the person looks like.

THIS! This is my original point of contention!!! I'm being characterized as a racist simply because I don't want to thought police actual racists! THIS IS WHY I FAVOR TRUMP. Jeeze.

It's simple really. You are championing the right to exclude people over race, gender and sexuality.

As far as making money goes, it doesn't matter what you think is sound business. What matters is that the business owner is free to make his own choices and thereby succeed or fail.

Nobody is suggesting you can't pick what to sell or what service to provide.

As far as the health and safety pigeon hole thing going on here, I'd say that if I kill my customers with arsenic and toxic waste I'd be guilty of murder which is already illegal. Also, I wouldn't y'know... have repeat customers.

Repeat darkie and gay customers are a bad thing?

[Nevertopia]

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

Within the scope of anti-discriminatory laws.

[Centai Mal]

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

We are listening, and you are comparing armed men enforcing opinions and “hey, we shouldn’t allow people to be denied services they may not be able to get anywhere else because of an uncontrollable characteristic.

I’m still waiting to hear if you think doctors should be allowed to discriminate against trans people

[The Black Forrest]

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

Do you have an open sign?

[Ankras]

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

It is my position that your business should comply with anti-discriminatory regulations or it should be taken away.

[Nevertopia]

You. Are. Not. Listening.
It is my contention that you don't have the RIGHT to enter my store at all. I allow you the privilege of entering because I decide to.

It is my position that your business should comply with anti-discriminatory regulations or it should be taken away.

I guess some people confuse being allowed to be a racist with being allowed to act on it.

[Ammostan]

Local ordinances win over your views.

It's simple really. You are championing the right to exclude people over race, gender and sexuality.

Nobody is suggesting you can't pick what to sell or what service to provide.

Those ordinances are wrong, but mob rule declares that they are enforced.
Yes, I am championing that right. I have never said that I wasn't. I also will repeat that I DO NOT THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.
You are telling me who I MUST provide those services TO.

Repeat darkie and gay customers are a bad thing?

If a racist/anti-gay person doesn't want to do business with them, then yeah in that context I suppose he would consider it bad.

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

Do you have an open sign?

And we're back to this. Again, my definition of Open is not the same as your definition of Open. Your definition is a quick hop skip and a jump to the famous cake baker from the ever mentioned example having a government man grabbing his hands an FORCING him to perform an action.

[Nevertopia]

Local ordinances win over your views.

It's simple really. You are championing the right to exclude people over race, gender and sexuality.

Nobody is suggesting you can't pick what to sell or what service to provide.

Those ordinances are wrong, but mob rule declares that they are enforced.
Yes, I am championing that right. I have never said that I wasn't. I also will repeat that I DO NOT THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.
You are telling me who I MUST provide those services TO.

Repeat darkie and gay customers are a bad thing?

If a racist/anti-gay person doesn't want to do business with them, then yeah in that context I suppose he would consider it bad.

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

Do you have an open sign?

And we're back to this. Again, my definition of Open is not the same as your definition of Open. Your definition is a quick hop skip and a jump to the famous cake baker from the ever mentioned example having a government man grabbing his hands an FORCING him to perform an action.

Following anti-discrimination laws isn't the same as compelling you to sell to someone who can't properly make a transaction.

[Ammostan]

Having anti-discrimination laws isn't the same as compelling you to sell to someone who can't properly make a transaction.

I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.

[Outer Acharet]

I think there are two opinions here:
1: People should be free to arbitrarily discriminate because in a free market they will be out-competed by those who do not, versus
2: The government should regulate businesses and keep those who arbitrarily discriminate from being allowed to operate.

IMO, reducing the freedoms of people is automatically something that should be looked at with concern and skepticism in any democratic society. HOWEVER, the supposition that the free market will regulate itself is untrue, as not all goods are equal.

If there are two shoe stores, and shoe store A only serves whites while shoe store B serves everyone, then shoe store B will succeed. But the moment a provider of an essential service that is nonetheless commercial chooses to discriminate against a group that group can no longer access an essential service. They will likely be stuck with a sub-par supplier of that service or be unable to access it at all- read, education during the Jim Crow period in America.

The way that was solved was with regulation. The argument here is that you can ensure other modes of access to equal goods, but that just isn't true, and thus to create a space where it is safe to allow businesses to discriminate to their customers would necessitate the removal of essential services from the control of the economy and their incorporation under a specific government framework, so they could be accessed by everyone.

This is obviously impractical, thus leading to the implementation of anti-discrimination laws in many countries.

[Nevertopia]

Having anti-discrimination laws isn't the same as compelling you to sell to someone who can't properly make a transaction.

I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.

I get you dont like being told what to do but you as an individual have an implied personal responsibility to follow basic human decency by way of implicit legislature for the sake of others around you. Part of that is if you want to participate in the private industry you have to follow the rules in place. You dont HAVE to sell to ANYBODY, but you cant withhold services based on discrimination.

[The Black Forrest]

Local ordinances win over your views.

It's simple really. You are championing the right to exclude people over race, gender and sexuality.

Nobody is suggesting you can't pick what to sell or what service to provide.

Those ordinances are wrong, but mob rule declares that they are enforced.
Yes, I am championing that right. I have never said that I wasn't. I also will repeat that I DO NOT THINK THAT THEY SHOULD.

You can't have it both ways. Think about. I don't think this store should be white only. But, the owner should have that right.

You are telling me who I MUST provide those services TO.

I get it. You don't like the idea of having to serve darkies or gays. This is why we have laws. As long as they aren't causing problems; it doesn't matter. You still get money.

Repeat darkie and gay customers are a bad thing?

If a racist/anti-gay person doesn't want to do business with them, then yeah in that context I suppose he would consider it bad.

Again. The Net is a perfect solution. You don't have to interact with them. Then again he might get upset his products are going to them.

Isn't it odd that you confuse authoritarianism with civil rights when you have to uphold those civil rights for other people? Refusing services to people based on ethnicity and sexuality is a clear case of racism and homophobia and is not part of your rights.

Do you have an open sign?

And we're back to this. Again, my definition of Open is not the same as your definition of Open. Your definition is a quick hop skip and a jump to the famous cake baker from the ever mentioned example having a government man grabbing his hands an FORCING him to perform an action.

Your definition is irrelevant. If you don't like it, get the law changed.

The case is known. He is not a famous baker. His work is actually mediocre for the most part. Forcing him? Seriously? He made cakes to sell and OMFG somebody wanted to buy one. The horror of it all. Making money.

[Ankras]

Having anti-discrimination laws isn't the same as compelling you to sell to someone who can't properly make a transaction.

I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.

Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

The rights of individual business owners are irrelevant in the scheme of the discrimination of entire populations of people. I do not sympathize.

[Outer Acharet]

If I'm reading this right then what's being advocated is exactly this:

I shouldn't be COMPELLED to sell to ANYBODY. That's my entire point.

Then your business will be taken away or you'll have to pay the fines. Long live "mob rule"

"I have a right to be a fucking asshole to my customers, just as they have a right to ignore me and take their business elsewhere." (edited to add quotations)

This doesn't work in practice, though. Evidence? The entirety of the Industrial Revolution in the United States, particularly the Gilded Age.