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On blaming religion for Trump

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:24 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Buddy, if you need me to cite examples of blue team's anti-Christian rhetoric you must be new to the internet.


Or you're making shit up for the sake of appearing oppressed.

But perhaps you can explain what parts of your views have been considered bigoted and how they actually aren't.


Remember that the democrats support gay rights and abortion, two big no nos to traditional christians.
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:26 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I would argue that Trump can be blamed for religion. Many people I knew were atheists before Trump but thanks to him, even they're praying to God begging him to save them.

You're probably right about that.
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-Astoria-
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Postby -Astoria- » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:29 am

Ammostan wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
You're getting straw on the carpet.


Buddy, if you need me to cite examples of blue team's anti-Christian rhetoric you must be new to the internet.
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:54 am

What I would presume is that when religion sets a precedent for a lack of critical thinking; which it most definitely does by using an unproven afterlife to bribe people into accepting its unproven claims; it sets a precedent for charlatans in the real world to do the same with crazy promises about the real world. I'm not shocked devout Christians tend to be Trump supporters; I'm shocked there are Christians who are otherwise progressive.


Christians lack critical thinking.

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.


More of the same, but now we also don't actually believe the things we claim. We are manipulators who just want your money in the collection plate.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.


More of the same.

Oh, yeah, there are definitely evangelical leaders who are either deluded or lying when it comes to Trump, but for a lot of those people being deluded or lying isn't really new.


Evangelicals are delusional liars.

Is it religion or is it the Evangelical base? Because they seem to not have any principals to stand on as long as Trump bans de gayz.


Evangelicals have no principles and hate gay people.



All that from THIS VERY THREAD, but I'm making things up? Honestly, I thought it was the left that got up in arms about telling people their "lived experience" is invalid as evidence.
Last edited by Ammostan on Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:59 am

Ammostan wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Neither is anyone else though.


Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me
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Crockerland
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Postby Crockerland » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:00 am

Ammostan wrote:
What I would presume is that when religion sets a precedent for a lack of critical thinking; which it most definitely does by using an unproven afterlife to bribe people into accepting its unproven claims; it sets a precedent for charlatans in the real world to do the same with crazy promises about the real world. I'm not shocked devout Christians tend to be Trump supporters; I'm shocked there are Christians who are otherwise progressive.


Christians lack critical thinking.

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.


More of the same, but now we also don't actually believe the things we claim. We are manipulators who just want your money in the collection plate.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.


More of the same.

Oh, yeah, there are definitely evangelical leaders who are either deluded or lying when it comes to Trump, but for a lot of those people being deluded or lying isn't really new.


Evangelicals are delusional liars.

Is it religion or is it the Evangelical base? Because they seem to not have any principals to stand on as long as Trump bans de gayz.


Evangelicals have no principles and hate gay people.



All that from THIS VERY THREAD, but I'm making things up? Honestly, I thought it was the left that got up in arms about telling people their "lived experience" is invalid as evidence.

Umm you weren't supposed to post proof you were just supposed to get owned epic style :(
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Crockerland
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Postby Crockerland » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:01 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me

Do you support the mass murder of unborn children?
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:02 am

Crockerland wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me

Do you support the mass murder of unborn children?

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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:05 am

Crockerland wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me

Do you support the mass murder of unborn children?

I support the rights of AFAB people to make private healthcare choices. I personally don’t think I could get an abortion, because of my religious beliefs, but I believe everyone has a right to bodily autonomy, and should be free to decide what they want, because not everyone believes in my religion

It’s also worth noting that I believe in science, because I’m a STEM major
Last edited by Centai Mal on Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.”

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 am

Ammostan wrote:
What I would presume is that when religion sets a precedent for a lack of critical thinking; which it most definitely does by using an unproven afterlife to bribe people into accepting its unproven claims; it sets a precedent for charlatans in the real world to do the same with crazy promises about the real world. I'm not shocked devout Christians tend to be Trump supporters; I'm shocked there are Christians who are otherwise progressive.


Christians lack critical thinking.

I certainly would agree that one of the most dangerous things about faith based religions is that they do not encourage critical thinking, and they rely upon mystical nonsense to manipulate and indoctrinate people. There are clear similarities here to the ability of Trump supporters to wave away reality when it suits them.


More of the same, but now we also don't actually believe the things we claim. We are manipulators who just want your money in the collection plate.

What I think is the more convincing argument is that organized religion, especially evangelical Christianity, has now been proven, by way of that communities unwavering support for Trump, to be nothing more than a cabal of gullible hypocrites, led by a host of charlatans, and monstrously deluded Priests, Pastors, and Reverends who earn a living by deluding the masses.


More of the same.

Oh, yeah, there are definitely evangelical leaders who are either deluded or lying when it comes to Trump, but for a lot of those people being deluded or lying isn't really new.


Evangelicals are delusional liars.

Is it religion or is it the Evangelical base? Because they seem to not have any principals to stand on as long as Trump bans de gayz.


Evangelicals have no principles and hate gay people.



All that from THIS VERY THREAD, but I'm making things up? Honestly, I thought it was the left that got up in arms about telling people their "lived experience" is invalid as evidence.

There are some stereotypes there, that I already tried to correct, although you also misinterpreted some of the things you listed as far as I can tell. But I don't see anything about a stupid racist inbred troglodyte, and that's what you were complaining about being called by everyone but Trump.
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Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:12 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me


Are you claiming that I do?

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 am

There are some stereotypes there, that I already tried to correct, although you also misinterpreted some of the things you listed as far as I can tell. But I don't see anything about a stupid racist inbred troglodyte, and that's what you were complaining about being called by everyone but Trump.


Fist, use of hyperbole does not invalidate an argument. Second, lacking critical thinking means that I'm STUPID. True, there were no "Christians are racist" comments, but I assume that's just because we haven't gotten there yet.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:18 am

Ammostan wrote:
There are some stereotypes there, that I already tried to correct, although you also misinterpreted some of the things you listed as far as I can tell. But I don't see anything about a stupid racist inbred troglodyte, and that's what you were complaining about being called by everyone but Trump.


Fist, use of hyperbole does not invalidate an argument. Second, lacking critical thinking means that I'm STUPID. True, there were no "Christians are racist" comments, but I assume that's just because we haven't gotten there yet.

I have never in my life heard anyone claim that Christians are racist, and I have gotten a lot of (justified) criticism for having bigoted views on this site. If you have even one example of it, I'd be surprised. Lacking critical thinking is also not the same as stupidity. Children believe anything, and no one calls them stupid. It's a result of a different situation, and sadly, there are Christians who don't think critically.
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Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:18 am

Ammostan wrote:
There are some stereotypes there, that I already tried to correct, although you also misinterpreted some of the things you listed as far as I can tell. But I don't see anything about a stupid racist inbred troglodyte, and that's what you were complaining about being called by everyone but Trump.


Fist, use of hyperbole does not invalidate an argument. Second, lacking critical thinking means that I'm STUPID. True, there were no "Christians are racist" comments, but I assume that's just because we haven't gotten there yet.


I mean I dont like most religions, including Islam as well as Christianity, but I will say I don't think the democrats are very explicitly anti Christian. Many of the things they support like women's rights, gay rights and abortion go against Christian teachings, but i don't think the democrats explicitly say "fuck christians."
The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you.

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:25 am

Geneviev wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Fist, use of hyperbole does not invalidate an argument. Second, lacking critical thinking means that I'm STUPID. True, there were no "Christians are racist" comments, but I assume that's just because we haven't gotten there yet.

I have never in my life heard anyone claim that Christians are racist, and I have gotten a lot of (justified) criticism for having bigoted views on this site. If you have even one example of it, I'd be surprised. Lacking critical thinking is also not the same as stupidity. Children believe anything, and no one calls them stupid. It's a result of a different situation, and sadly, there are Christians who don't think critically.


Well, off the top of my head I can imagine someone from Blue Team saying "Christians historically used the Mark of Cain as a condemnation of black people and have claimed they have no souls." even though that isn't something that I, as a non-racist Christian would ever do.

The implication was made that ALL Christians do not think critically.

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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:56 am

Ammostan wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me


Are you claiming that I do?

I find that’s typically why people center of left get mad at religious folks on the right
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:58 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Fist, use of hyperbole does not invalidate an argument. Second, lacking critical thinking means that I'm STUPID. True, there were no "Christians are racist" comments, but I assume that's just because we haven't gotten there yet.


I mean I dont like most religions, including Islam as well as Christianity, but I will say I don't think the democrats are very explicitly anti Christian. Many of the things they support like women's rights, gay rights and abortion go against Christian teachings, but i don't think the democrats explicitly say "fuck christians."

I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon
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Tombradyonia
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Postby Tombradyonia » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:04 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Claim to be Christian and watch the amount of hateful things spewed at you by those on the Blue Team.

Hi, I’m Christian (technically Catholic) and I don’t get hateful things spewed at me by other people on the “Blue Team” because I don’t use my religion as a mask to hate people that aren’t like me


And that is exactly the core of the issue. :clap:

RW evangelicals: "If I can't discriminate against gay people then that is oppression! OPPRESSION!"
These clowns are always claiming to be oppressed and that others have an "agenda" to "shove down evangelicals throats". The reality is that they (the RW evangelicals) are the ones with the agenda seeking to shove it down others throats.

Back in 1964, the country decided that a business owner could NOT discriminate against a potential customer on account of skin color. So, the question to these right wingers is, why would it be okay to discriminate based on other reasons? It is perfectly reasonable to ensure that businesses open to the public have to play by certain rules. If they don't like that, maybe they can move to Putin's Russia where this sort of thing might be acceptable?

Oh wait, they want to back to some era where America was "great", and since America isn't great anymore we need changes to make sure that America can be "great again". From what I understand from their rhetoric, they may not be saying it literally, but they are pining for the "good old days" before the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts. The time of Jim Crow. They want it back... so America would be "great again". I wouldn't know what else it means.
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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:06 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
I mean I dont like most religions, including Islam as well as Christianity, but I will say I don't think the democrats are very explicitly anti Christian. Many of the things they support like women's rights, gay rights and abortion go against Christian teachings, but i don't think the democrats explicitly say "fuck christians."

I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon

Hell, the lines most used to disavow homosexuality never meant to mean homosexuality in the RSV until 1946.

"Arsenokoitai," the Greek word used to describe homosexuality, traditionally meant pedophilia. Here's a translation from a 1912 Lutheran Bible used in the German Empire:

Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with the boy as with the woman; because it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: "If somebody sleeps with a boy like a woman, they have done an abomination and both shall die of death; their blood is on them."
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:15 am

Atheris wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon

Hell, the lines most used to disavow homosexuality never meant to mean homosexuality in the RSV until 1946.

"Arsenokoitai," the Greek word used to describe homosexuality, traditionally meant pedophilia. Here's a translation from a 1912 Lutheran Bible used in the German Empire:

Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with the boy as with the woman; because it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: "If somebody sleeps with a boy like a woman, they have done an abomination and both shall die of death; their blood is on them."

Oh, I very much agree with that interpretation (as does my priest, who was very accepting when I came out)
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:30 am

Atheris wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon

Hell, the lines most used to disavow homosexuality never meant to mean homosexuality in the RSV until 1946.

"Arsenokoitai," the Greek word used to describe homosexuality, traditionally meant pedophilia. Here's a translation from a 1912 Lutheran Bible used in the German Empire:

Leviticus 18:22: "Thou shalt not lie with the boy as with the woman; because it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: "If somebody sleeps with a boy like a woman, they have done an abomination and both shall die of death; their blood is on them."

Why, it's almost as if attempting to translate something written millennia ago in a foreign language lends itself to uncertainty or something. So why should we trust that anything else in the Bible was translated correctly?

When people ignore these sorts of questions, you set a precedent for them to ignore the question of "why would you expect a rich asshole who screwed over everyone else he's ever worked with to treat you any differently?"
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:36 am

Ammostan wrote:
Geneviev wrote:I have never in my life heard anyone claim that Christians are racist, and I have gotten a lot of (justified) criticism for having bigoted views on this site. If you have even one example of it, I'd be surprised. Lacking critical thinking is also not the same as stupidity. Children believe anything, and no one calls them stupid. It's a result of a different situation, and sadly, there are Christians who don't think critically.


Well, off the top of my head I can imagine someone from Blue Team saying "Christians historically used the Mark of Cain as a condemnation of black people and have claimed they have no souls." even though that isn't something that I, as a non-racist Christian would ever do.

The implication was made that ALL Christians do not think critically.

That's a fact. You know that, right? It's not calling Christians racist, it's stating a real historical fact. And has nothing to do with you personally unless you do the same.

I didn't read it that way, personally, and I definitely don't think that was the intent.
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Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

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Postby Whitemore » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:45 am

I don't blame Religion for Trump, I blame his Family and the Environment he lived in for shaping him to be who he is today. If he'd been raised in a much more loving Household and not been forced to be so competitive against everyone he knew growing up then maybe we'd see a much more Compassionate Man who understands the struggles of the Working Man.
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Ammostan
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Posts: 75
Founded: Jun 30, 2020
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Ammostan » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:49 am

Centai Mal wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
I mean I dont like most religions, including Islam as well as Christianity, but I will say I don't think the democrats are very explicitly anti Christian. Many of the things they support like women's rights, gay rights and abortion go against Christian teachings, but i don't think the democrats explicitly say "fuck christians."

I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon


I don't think the government should be in the marriage business at all. It should be between man and God, not man and the government and God. If you're gay and want to get married fine, get married. But don't force a Christian to perform the ceremony.

It is perfectly reasonable to ensure that businesses open to the public have to play by certain rules. If they don't like that, maybe they can move to Putin's Russia where this sort of thing might be acceptable?


A business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason because it is HIS business. If he decides to alienate large sections of the population because of his beliefs it should be his right to lose tons of money. Is it your store? Do you own it? Then why do you get to decide how he runs it? Should I be forced to let anyone into my house that wants to enter? Why does the fact that it is a business make a difference? It's private property.

Don't tell me that I am a bigot for believing this. I don't want Jim Crow laws, I want free enterprise.

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Vassenor
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Posts: 52852
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:50 am

Ammostan wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:I said further up that Democrats really only tend to be anti-forced-beliefs, where religious folks (mostly Christian) try to force their religious beliefs on gay people, people who want abortions, etc.

Like, if your religion says “gay folks shouldn’t get married”, why is it your place to force people who aren’t your religion to abstain from gay marriage? Just don’t bloody enter one yourself. Jewish people don’t tell non-Jews we can’t eat bacon


I don't think the government should be in the marriage business at all. It should be between man and God, not man and the government and God. If you're gay and want to get married fine, get married. But don't force a Christian to perform the ceremony.

It is perfectly reasonable to ensure that businesses open to the public have to play by certain rules. If they don't like that, maybe they can move to Putin's Russia where this sort of thing might be acceptable?


A business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason because it is HIS business. If he decides to alienate large sections of the population because of his beliefs it should be his right to lose tons of money. Is it your store? Do you own it? Then why do you get to decide how he runs it? Should I be forced to let anyone into my house that wants to enter? Why does the fact that it is a business make a difference? It's private property.

Don't tell me that I am a bigot for believing this. I don't want Jim Crow laws, I want free enterprise.


"I don't want Jim Crow, I just want people to be able to discriminate on racial grounds" is one hell of an odd flex.
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