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On blaming religion for Trump

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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On blaming religion for Trump

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:13 pm

In 2016, I recall hearing people blame MRAs for Trump, as if he didn't himself invoke misandrous-sounding rhetoric like "a lot of these refugees are men" or as if the supposed alternative; feminism; even had any real definition at all.

In 2020, I get mistaken for a Trump supporter whenever I express rhetoric similar to his on China.

However, there is one thing that actually does correlate; far more incontrovertibly, at least; with support for Donald Trump. And that thing is something people feel a lot more uncomfortable blaming for his election.

The popularity of religion.

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Image

People often like to argue Trump isn't a true Christian. I wouldn't be shocked if he's faking it and all, but there's no metric by which to gauge this. You could argue his lifestyle contradicts the Bible; but that would leave behind the question, what parts? So long as the Bible is so notoriously contradictory, is it any shock that people who ignore the Bible's contradictions would ignore Trump's too?

What I would presume is that when religion sets a precedent for a lack of critical thinking; which it most definitely does by using an unproven afterlife to bribe people into accepting its unproven claims; it sets a precedent for charlatans in the real world to do the same with crazy promises about the real world. I'm not shocked devout Christians tend to be Trump supporters; I'm shocked there are Christians who are otherwise progressive.

What say you, NSG?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:49 pm

Blaming religon for Trump is a bit of a stretch.

I doubt "smart" (smart being defined as people who don't rely on a dismal such as "fake news") religious people expect politicians to fully follow the religion. In their world view, it would be great. However, they probably feel its highly unlikely.

"He is not a true" has always been a copout. My religion is flawless. Oh yea? What about these guys who do this or that? Oh, they are not true followers.

Trump was smart of feed on the hate that exists today. He had no real plans; just had the great populist buzz words and phrases.

Enough people have woken up to Trumps nonsense and his incompetence and have made the republican/trumpests scared they will loose all branches of the goverment.

We shall see.
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-Astoria-
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Postby -Astoria- » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:51 pm

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Deacarsia
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On blaming religion for Trump

Postby Deacarsia » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:54 pm

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:57 pm

Whereas the Clinton vote seems related to Bigfoot sightings.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:59 pm

Deacarsia wrote:Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

That's a copout. The stronger a correlation, the less likely a coincidence, and the more likely either one factor caused the other or; in this case, more likely, some external factor caused both.

My OP includes a tentative explanation of what this factor is, but the correlation is strong regardless of any supposed flaws of this particular explanation.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:00 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Whereas the Clinton vote seems related to Bigfoot sightings.

(Image)

Are these figures adjusted to "per capita?"
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:04 pm

Who the fuck blamed religion for Trump?
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:07 pm

Vassenor wrote:Who the fuck blamed religion for Trump?

Me.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:09 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Who the fuck blamed religion for Trump?

Me.


Not surprised at all.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:11 pm

Really religious people aren't voting for Trump but against Trump's opponents who they see as strongly hostile towards religion (Unless that religion is Islam then they believe Democrats will fawn all over religion).

A lot of them didn't vote in 2012 for Romney because they didn't see him as a "Good Christian" and all that got them is 4 more years of Obama so they're not stupid enough to "Stay home" again.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:14 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Deacarsia wrote:Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

That's a copout. The stronger a correlation, the less likely a coincidence, and the more likely either one factor caused the other or; in this case, more likely, some external factor caused both.

A thousand quantitative scientists cried out in anguish at this statement.
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Nuroblav
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Postby Nuroblav » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:17 pm

This:
The Lone Alliance wrote:Really religious people aren't voting for Trump but against Trump's opponents who they see as strongly hostile towards religion (Unless that religion is Islam).
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The Cosmic Mainframe
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Postby The Cosmic Mainframe » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:17 pm

Religion had been known to correlate with voting Republican in the US for a long time before 2016. It's not at all surprising that it would correlate with voting for Trump.

It probably helped Trump that religious people listened to the evangelicals who endorsed him, but I wouldn't place the blame solely on them.
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Outer Acharet
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Postby Outer Acharet » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:22 pm

It's less about being religious and more about how religion and politics are intertwined in the South. The whole "Conservative Christian Right" led to the megachurches and prosperity-Gospel folks
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getting a modicum of political power in their own right. As these people were generally conservative, their followers who are also conservative ended up voting for the right because that was what these preachers told them to.

It is not a uniform of what religious folks believe. I personally find their politics somewhat abhorrent (see the spoiler) and think that the Christian right is responsible for the shrinking of religious populations in the First World, due to these representatives of a part of the Church tarnishing everyone by deciding that their own personal beliefs about what was right were representative of how things should be.
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Borderlands of Rojava
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Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:33 pm

I dont see how someone can support trump and be all about religious values. I'm sorry but the man is an adulterer and has said he doesn't need God's forgiveness, so he's well outside the boundaries of Christian morality.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:40 pm

Really religious people are used to playing second string in a republican coalition, and Trump went out of his way to make sure they knew they could keep that spot. News at 11.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I dont see how someone can support trump and be all about religious values. I'm sorry but the man is an adulterer and has said he doesn't need God's forgiveness, so he's well outside the boundaries of Christian morality.

Christianity has a very long history of considering a ruler's policies to be more important than their personal behavior.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:41 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:I dont see how someone can support trump and be all about religious values. I'm sorry but the man is an adulterer and has said he doesn't need God's forgiveness, so he's well outside the boundaries of Christian morality.

Yet he doesn't believe Bakeries should be forced to bake cakes for LGBT people or that Catholics should be forced to provide Birth Control.... stuff the other side apparently supports.

So for them that's good enough to get them to vote for him, because the alternative is worse.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:42 pm

The Cosmic Mainframe wrote:Religion had been known to correlate with voting Republican in the US for a long time before 2016. It's not at all surprising that it would correlate with voting for Trump.

It probably helped Trump that religious people listened to the evangelicals who endorsed him, but I wouldn't place the blame solely on them.

And more to the point, that Trump listened to the evangelicals who endorsed them, in a way that republican presidential candidates usually don't.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:49 pm

Vistulange wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:That's a copout. The stronger a correlation, the less likely a coincidence, and the more likely either one factor caused the other or; in this case, more likely, some external factor caused both.

A thousand quantitative scientists cried out in anguish at this statement.

"Quantitative scientists" might have a vested interest in stacking the deck against this notion, not necessarily out of any bias in favour of religion, but perhaps to give themselves wiggle room in case in the future they ever need to downplay harms caused by whomever is funding them.

In the meantime, literally every other explanation offered in this thread reflects poorly on religion, from being so inseparably tied to all the factors that led to Trump's rise to power.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:59 pm

Honestly why is this a big deal? It's no secret that Christians down South would vote for conservatives like President Trump, why is it a problem now?
Last edited by Aeritai on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Aeritai wrote:Honestly why is this a big deal? It's no secret that Christians down South would vote for conservatives like President Trump why is it a problem now?

Trump's a bigger threat to democracy and rule of law than Bush was.

Though frankly, I had a problem with it back then too but just sugar-coated it (relatively) more.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:00 pm

Aeritai wrote:Honestly why is this a big deal? It's no secret that Christians down South would vote for conservatives like President Trump why is it a problem now?

Because Trump is the second coming of Hitler, obviously. Never mind we said the same thing about Bush and it didn't come true.
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Postby Sicilian Imperial-Capitalist Empire » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:08 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Aeritai wrote:Honestly why is this a big deal? It's no secret that Christians down South would vote for conservatives like President Trump why is it a problem now?

Trump's a bigger threat to democracy and rule of law than Bush was.

Though frankly, I had a problem with it back then too but just sugar-coated it (relatively) more.

Oh please. Donald J. Trump may be good at playing reality TV tactics to get elected, but there's no way in hell that you could convince me that he is competent or ill-intentioned enough to tear down American democracy.

I mean, he's not literally Hitler for crying out loud. He's just a businessman. And this is coming from a guy that doesn't even like Trump for being so centrist.
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The Cosmic Mainframe
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Postby The Cosmic Mainframe » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:13 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Aeritai wrote:Honestly why is this a big deal? It's no secret that Christians down South would vote for conservatives like President Trump why is it a problem now?

Because Trump is the second coming of Hitler, obviously. Never mind we said the same thing about Bush and it didn't come true.

Bush was pretty bad. We seem to be forgetting that now that there is a different bad Republican in office.
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