Page 1 of 5

US Dep of Defense Limits Flag Use

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:36 pm
by Evacillian
Intro
In the middle of July 2020, the United States' Department of Defense, led by Secretary of Defense Dr. Mark T. Esper, clamped down, restricting flags that can be displayed anywhere the Department of Defense has authority over, which includes military bases, the Pentagon, restrooms, etc.

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2278101/secretary-of-defense-dr-mark-t-esper-guidance-on-public-display-or-depiction-of/
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/defense-secretary-esper-bans-confederate-flag-us-military/story?id=71842016
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/overnights/507889-overnight-defense-pentagon-effectively-bans-confederate-flag-lgbt
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/confederate-flag-military-bases-ban/2020/07/17/301e9b48-c832-11ea-a9d3-74640f25b953_story.html

The list of acceptable flags does not include the iconic Confederate States of America's battle flag, Rainbow flag, or American Indian/ Native American flags (Indian Reservations are not 'Territories').

While the "Ban" of all varients and associated flags of the Confederate States of America is applauded by the American Democrat Party (In General), the decision to have such a blanket ban, is not.
As of the day of this post, it is reported that a group of Democrat Affiliated Elected Officials have written and/or signed a letter to Esper to allow LGBTQ Pride Flags and sovereign American Indian/ Native American flags.

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/House-members-demand-LGBTQ-Pride-flags-be-allowed-on-military-installations/68983.html - Contains Transcription of Full Letter
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-house-democrats-pentagon-reverse-ban-lgbtq-flag-20200801-a5yjethlancthcqiepqip6nuj4-story.html
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/509985-democrats-demand-esper-allow-pride-native-nations-flags-explicitly-ban
https://www.newsmax.com/politics/democrats-esper-confederate-flag-lgbt/2020/07/31/id/979998/



Discuss
Alright, NS. Now that that intro is over- I can get to the point.

1. Do you agree with the Department of Defense's decision to restrict what flags are permitted on their property or affiliations.
2. What do you think of the demand to allow Pride Flags and American Indian Flags to the list of acceptable flags?

IMO,
This ruling was only made because of the recent public uproar and demonstrations, peaceful, legal, and not. Let's just get that said.
I'm not uncomfortable with the rule, but I'm also not applauding it. DoD is run by the government, and any time I hear or read anything about any sect of the government issuing more regulations, I just roll my eyes. However, I will admit that I am pleasantly surprised to see how professional it is. Anything strictly to do with the official United States on the internal and international level (Officially Recognized Allied Nations) are accepted and nothing else. That's as black and white as you can get without it being a choice between No flags and All flags. Pride Flags, like the Confederate flags, are not USA flags. Indian tribes and reservations are not States or Territories, and are deeply submerged in politcally polluted, murky waters.
Therefore, I don't really care about the ruling. But I disagree with the Democrat Representatives who wrote and signed the letter. Picking and choosing rules, restictions, and regulations to make a political/ moral/ ethical/ whatever statement is not the job of the DoD.
Either permit all non-USA flags or none.
https://www.bnl.gov/bera/activities/va/pdf/2013-flagetiquette.pdf

Discuss. (I really enjoy witnessing conversations emerge and evolve on the NS forums.)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:45 pm
by Alcala-Cordel
“The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice”
-Malcolm X

It's worth noting that this quote doesn't exactly fit, but it comes pretty close. I guess it's cool that they can't fly the Confederate flag, but that's not gonna do anything to solve the underlying problem. This is a worthless gesture to the current tensions, and the protests must not let up until true justice and accountability are achieved.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:44 am
by Nobel Hobos 2
Evacillian wrote:Intro
In the middle of July 2020, the United States' Department of Defense, led by Secretary of Defense Dr. Mark T. Esper, clamped down, restricting flags that can be displayed anywhere the Department of Defense has authority over, which includes military bases, the Pentagon, restrooms, etc.


Flags in DoD restrooms? Where serving military can give the flag the bird without getting caught on camera? Sounds good.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:54 am
by Prizea
If you are justifying it by the flags being divisive and jeopardising the cohesion of the unit, then I can understand the logic behind banning all other flags. Of course that doesn’t leave you much of a leg to stand on with regards to the bases and ships named after racists, but given it appears like they are moving to changing those anyway I think that was probably part of the equation (making it harder for political pressure to roll back the process).

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:59 am
by Dumb Ideologies
As a non-USian, it makes sense not to allow any flags other than the national flag and the flag of the state a base is in. The military shouldn't be in the business of supporting individual interest groups or historical traitors in the case of the confederate flag.

In particular, I imagine putting any Native American symbols outside an institution of force of the country that took their historic lands would be fairly tone-deaf and likely to annoy more people than it made feel "included" so even within the internal logic of the diversity agenda that would seem like a no-no.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:11 am
by Nuroblav
This:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:“The white man will try to satisfy us with symbolic victories rather than economic equity and real justice”
-Malcolm X

It's worth noting that this quote doesn't exactly fit, but it comes pretty close. I guess it's cool that they can't fly the Confederate flag, but that's not gonna do anything to solve the underlying problem. This is a worthless gesture to the current tensions, and the protests must not let up until true justice and accountability are achieved.

Such actions do nothing to solve the actual problems in the US.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:49 am
by Picairn
Only the US national flag should be allowed.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:52 am
by The Greater Ohio Valley
Good, symbols of a treasonous rebellion shouldn’t be allowed on bases of the armed forces that dunked on it.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:55 am
by Earthbound Immortal Squad
While I may not know very much about American politics. From what I have seen from the OP it sounds to me like they are just having the USA flag. Which I don't really see much issue in it, as it is not as politically charged as the confederate or LGBTQ+ flags. While I don't see it making much of a monumental impact I don't see what the fuss of it all is.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:55 am
by Nobel Hobos 2
Picairn wrote:Only the US national flag should be allowed.


And the UN flag, for when Trump is visiting and the base commander wants to troll him.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:56 am
by Fartsniffage
Picairn wrote:Only the US national flag should be allowed.


I'd also allow the flags of any other nations who have troops on the base. Or the next time the Royal Marines or the Paras are over there for some interoperability training there will be fights.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:57 am
by Nobel Hobos 2
I've never seen a base, but wouldn't they leave the US flag up and fly others (eg state flag) on a lower pole beside it?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:00 am
by Picairn
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:And the UN flag, for when Trump is visiting and the base commander wants to troll him.

Fartsniffage wrote:I'd also allow the flags of any other nation who has troops on the base. Or the next time the Royal Marines or the Paras are over there for some interoperability training there will be fights.

You both make good points. :)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:01 am
by Fartsniffage
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I've never seen a base, but wouldn't they leave the US flag up and fly others (eg state flag) on a lower pole beside it?


It's not just the flag poles, people have them up in quarters and communal areas. If you're in shared quarters flags are really useful for a bit of privacy too. The nylon ones are super lightweight so you can hang them from anything to make screens or makeshift doors.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:04 am
by Nobel Hobos 2
Fartsniffage wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I've never seen a base, but wouldn't they leave the US flag up and fly others (eg state flag) on a lower pole beside it?


It's not just the flag poles, people have them up in quarters and communal areas. If you're in shared quarters flags are really useful for a bit of privacy too. The nylon ones are super lightweight so you can hang them from anything to make screens or makeshift doors.


OK. I can see that hanging up whatever flag you like could cause a punchup lack of unit cohesion ...

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:24 am
by Greed and Death
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I've never seen a base, but wouldn't they leave the US flag up and fly others (eg state flag) on a lower pole beside it?


Soldiers like to put flags in windows and on bumper stickers of their car.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:25 am
by Trollzyn the Infinite
Sounds good to me.

Well, except the Amerindian Reservation flags. I don't think those should be banned as there are natives in service and they should be able to show pride for their tribe just as any other American would for their state. Unless state flags are also banned, tribal flags shouldn't be.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:28 am
by Greed and Death
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Sounds good to me.

Well, except the Amerindian Reservation flags. I don't think those should be banned as there are natives in service and they should be able to show pride for their tribe just as any other American would for their state. Unless state flags are also banned, tribal flags shouldn't be.



Those technically might be covered under allied nations. There is enough room to interpret the regulation that Chains of Command can use a small amount of common sense.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:28 am
by -Astoria-
Dumb Ideologies wrote:As a non-USian, it makes sense not to allow any flags other than the national flag and the flag of the state a base is in. The military shouldn't be in the business of supporting individual interest groups or historical traitors in the case of the confederate flag.

In particular, I imagine putting any Native American symbols outside an institution of force of the country that took their historic lands would be fairly tone-deaf and likely to annoy more people than it made feel "included" so even within the internal logic of the diversity agenda that would seem like a no-no.

This.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:42 am
by Greed and Death
So my thoughts on the DOD directive. I believe this is the best course.

The ban on all messaging for politics and identity appears like it was designed to hold up to a challenge under constitutional law. If they had solely targeted the confederate flag they might have lost on free speech grounds ( yes the military does have free speech rights when off duty especially for the enlisted). Banning confederate flags alone would require narrow tailoring and I am not certain the government would win on those grounds. So instead they focus on allowing a small number of flags.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:42 am
by Greed and Death
Dumb Ideologies wrote:As a non-USian, it makes sense not to allow any flags other than the national flag and the flag of the state a base is in. The military shouldn't be in the business of supporting individual interest groups or historical traitors in the case of the confederate flag.

In particular, I imagine putting any Native American symbols outside an institution of force of the country that took their historic lands would be fairly tone-deaf and likely to annoy more people than it made feel "included" so even within the internal logic of the diversity agenda that would seem like a no-no.


A lot of native soldiers like to have their tribal flag in their barracks.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:23 am
by SD_Film Artists
Why is this even an issue? Isn't it just normal to fly the US flag on federal buildings? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised since the US is the only western country where flying full-size flags outside your home is considered normal.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:26 am
by Thermodolia
SD_Film Artists wrote:Why is this even an issue? Isn't it just normal to fly the US flag on federal buildings? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised since the US is the only western country where flying full-size flags outside your home is considered normal.

This bans members from having other flags in their possession. Which tbh isn’t bad at all since I’ve seen a few crazies who thought it was a brilliant idea to keep a nazi flag in their room

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:37 am
by The New California Republic
I would have thought that it'd be taken as a given that the military has broad jurisdiction of what happens inside bases....

PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:38 am
by Thermodolia
The New California Republic wrote:I would have thought that it'd be taken as a given that the military has broad jurisdiction of what happens inside bases....

You’d think that but no