NationStates

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:40 am**

Thermodolia wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:Why is this even an issue? Isn't it just normal to fly the US flag on federal buildings? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised since the US is the only western country where flying full-size flags outside your home is considered normal.

This bans members from having other flags in their possession. Which tbh isn’t bad at all since I’ve seen a few crazies who thought it was a brilliant idea to keep a nazi flag in their room

I'm more interested as to how they'd know in the first place, unless they're talking about little flags on their office desk.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:42 am**

Thermodolia wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:Why is this even an issue? Isn't it just normal to fly the US flag on federal buildings? Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised since the US is the only western country where flying full-size flags outside your home is considered normal.

This bans members from having other flags in their possession. Which tbh isn’t bad at all since I’ve seen a few crazies who thought it was a brilliant idea to keep a nazi flag in their room

There have been a few instances of Nazi and far right paraphernalia being found in British Army barracks too tbh.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:46 am**

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:This bans members from having other flags in their possession. Which tbh isn’t bad at all since I’ve seen a few crazies who thought it was a brilliant idea to keep a nazi flag in their room

I'm more interested as to how they'd know in the first place, unless they're talking about little flags on their office desk.

Nope I’m talking about full sized flags people got in their rooms

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:47 am**

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:This bans members from having other flags in their possession. Which tbh isn’t bad at all since I’ve seen a few crazies who thought it was a brilliant idea to keep a nazi flag in their room

I'm more interested as to how they'd know in the first place, unless they're talking about little flags on their office desk.

It’s the accommodation that is the significant part. Somebody hanging a flag out of a window is both visible to anybody nearby, is in a somewhat personal space (so limited amounts of self-decoration would be allowed), and is also displaying them in a federally owned building.

Hell, even if you just have it up in a prominent place in your room, it’s pretty damn obvious to anybody in your unit that it is there (which is what the unit cohesion argument is about).

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:51 am**

Thermodolia wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I'm more interested as to how they'd know in the first place, unless they're talking about little flags on their office desk.

Nope I’m talking about full sized flags people got in their rooms

Prizea wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I'm more interested as to how they'd know in the first place, unless they're talking about little flags on their office desk.

It’s the accommodation that is the significant part. Somebody hanging a flag out of a window is both visible to anybody nearby, is in a somewhat personal space (so limited amounts of self-decoration would be allowed), and is also displaying them in a federally owned building.

Hell, even if you just have it up in a prominent place in your room, it’s pretty damn obvious to anybody in your unit that it is there (which is what the unit cohesion argument is about).

Ah so army barracks etc, that makes sense.

Evacillian wrote:Intro
In the middle of July 2020, the United States' Department of Defense, led by Secretary of Defense Dr. Mark T. Esper, clamped down, restricting flags that can be displayed anywhere the Department of Defense has authority over, which includes military bases, the Pentagon, restrooms, etc.

So you can't even have Nazi toilets anymore. Political correctness gone mad!

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 am**

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Sounds good to me.

Well, except the Amerindian Reservation flags. I don't think those should be banned as there are natives in service and they should be able to show pride for their tribe just as any other American would for their state. Unless state flags are also banned, tribal flags shouldn't be.

I agree, official Native American nation flags should be permitted as well.

The rainbow flag being a political flag though is probably best left out.

Keep it to only official US (including state and Native American nation official flags) and allied flags being allowed.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:59 am**

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Nope I’m talking about full sized flags people got in their rooms

Ah so army barracks etc, that makes sense.

Evacillian wrote:Intro
In the middle of July 2020, the United States' Department of Defense, led by Secretary of Defense Dr. Mark T. Esper, clamped down, restricting flags that can be displayed anywhere the Department of Defense has authority over, which includes military bases, the Pentagon, restrooms, etc.

So you can't even have Nazi toilets anymore. Political correctness gone mad!

Mein shitskrieg!

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:05 am**

Novus America wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Sounds good to me.

Well, except the Amerindian Reservation flags. I don't think those should be banned as there are natives in service and they should be able to show pride for their tribe just as any other American would for their state. Unless state flags are also banned, tribal flags shouldn't be.

I agree, official Native American nation flags should be permitted as well.

The rainbow flag being a political flag though is probably best left out.

Keep it to only official US (including state and Native American nation official flags) and allied flags being allowed.

I'm not familiar with the finer details of native politics, but wouldn't a tribe/reservation flag be a sign of treason or at the very least ethno-nationalism? That is unless it really is treated as the equivalent of a state flag.

As for the rainbow flag, I'd like to see the look of Jihadis when they get routed by a 'gay tank'.
"We fight hard... and play hard"
It won't do much good for the camouflage though.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:11 am**

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Novus America wrote:
I agree, official Native American nation flags should be permitted as well.

The rainbow flag being a political flag though is probably best left out.

Keep it to only official US (including state and Native American nation official flags) and allied flags being allowed.

I'm not familiar with the finer details of native politics, but wouldn't a tribe/reservation flag be a sign of treason or at the very least ethno-nationalism? That is unless it really is treated as the equivalent of a state flag.

As for the rainbow flag, I'd like to see the look of Jihadis when they get routed by a 'gay tank'.

No. Officially recognized tribes have their own autonomous territories, which are legally recognized by the US government. Thus flying their flag is no worse or really different than flying a city or county flag.
Although US tribal law is very complicated it is absolutely NOT treason to fly the flag of an official and legal local governing entity obviously.

And although trolling Jihadis might be fun, it is still best to avoid siding with one certain political tendency over another in the military (and doing so could cause a legal issue, although you can restrict certain speech on government property you have to keep the regulations largely viewpoint neutral regarding such political tendencies).

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 am**

SD_Film Artists wrote:As for the rainbow flag, I'd like to see the look of Jihadis when they get routed by a 'gay tank'.
"We fight hard... and play hard"

There actually is precedent. US forces in Korea and Vietnam often painted fierce lion faces on the front of their tanks because they thought Asians were backwards and generally superstitious and thus be afraid of the drawings. It's total nonsense of course, and thus they weren't afraid of the drawings at all.

But maybe the LGBT flag would make the Jihadis afraid.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:21 am**

The New California Republic wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:As for the rainbow flag, I'd like to see the look of Jihadis when they get routed by a 'gay tank'.
"We fight hard... and play hard"

There actually is precedent. US forces in Korea and Vietnam often painted fierce lion faces on the front of their tanks because they thought Asians were backwards and generally superstitious and thus be afraid of the drawings. It's total nonsense of course, and thus they weren't afraid of the drawings at all.

But maybe the LGBT flag would make the Jihadis afraid.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:26 am**

The New California Republic wrote:I would have thought that it'd be taken as a given that the military has broad jurisdiction of what happens inside bases....

In the US they have on base family housing. So you have spouses and children on base that the military has much more limited authority over.

There was also waiting for Mississippi. As they had a confederate flag derived state flag their national guard units basically had confederate flags on their uniform.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:31 am**

Greed and Death wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I would have thought that it'd be taken as a given that the military has broad jurisdiction of what happens inside bases....

In the US they have on base family housing. So you have spouses and children on base that the military has much more limited authority over.

They do have that here as well, but I was excluding that from what I said for obvious reasons. But if one of the houses had a Nazi flag in their window then I'm sure that questions would still be asked regardless.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 am**

Windy City Times has posted a transcription of the full letter. The OP has been updated to include the following link:
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/House-members-demand-LGBTQ-Pride-flags-be-allowed-on-military-installations/68983.html

The following spoiler contains the Letter as given by Windy City Chimes:

July 30, 2020

Dear Secretary Esper:

We are writing today with concern regarding the Department of Defense's policy for the display of flags on military installations. While we applaud the Department for taking steps to remove the Confederate Battle Flag from our military bases, the action unnecessarily avoids a clear rebuke of this oppressive symbol while simultaneously limiting how servicemembers can freely express themselves in line with our values.

The Department issued a new policy on July 16, 2020 on the display or depiction of flags. This policy does not explicitly ban the Confederate Battle Flag, and instead outlines which flags are exclusively allowed on installations. Such a blanket ban on the display of all but a limited number of flags is convoluted, harmful, and unnecessary. While we understand the intent is to ban divisive symbols from Department installations, this policy has inadvertently banned other flags, such as those of professional or collegiate sports teams, and most significantly, those that support diversity and inclusion, including sovereign Native Nations and LGBTQ Pride Flags.

The implicit banning of these symbols of diversity and inclusion runs counter to our ideals as a nation and a military. The Department must have the strength and courage to be able to simultaneously stand against a symbol of hate and oppression in the Confederate Battle Flag while allowing the display of support for civil rights, equity, and justice. The resolute ideal that "all men are created equal" is embodied by the victory of the United States Armed Forces in the American Civil War, and the defeat of an armed insurrection that sought to maintain the slavery and oppression of African Americans. Our country has courageously carried these principles into the global sphere, rising to advance human rights and fighting for the oppressed wherever they may be found. We do not honor or display the Parteiflagge of Nazi Germany on our military bases, and any decision on the Confederate Battle Flag must likewise be unequivocal: it must be banned outright.

Furthermore, an explicit, direct ban of the Confederate Battle Flag has broad support throughout the services and in Congress. The Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard have all banned the flag internally and the House passed a provision to ban the Confederate Battle Flag in this year's National Defense Authorization Act with strong bipartisan votes in committee and on the floor. Such a policy would clearly establish that the Confederate Battle Flag has no place within our military while providing a diverse and inclusive environment in which service members may freely express themselves in line with our values.

While the Department and the United States Armed Forces have long been at the forefront in advancing diversity and inclusion in our nation, we have fallen far short of expectations. Minorities remain vastly underrepresented in commissioned officer and senior leader ranks. The action by the Department to implicitly ban the LGBTQ Pride flag only serves to create a discriminatory environment for LGBTQ service members and continue to isolate them from their fellow Airmen, Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers. If the Department is to continue to lead on advancing diversity and inclusion, and to ensure that all Americans who wish to serve are able to do with pride, it must be an active partner and an ally for these causes.

We ask that you immediately revise the new policy on flag display, explicitly ban the Confederate Battle Flag, and ensure that service members can express support for diversity and inclusion through the display of sovereign Native Nations and LGBTQ Pride flags. We look forward to continuing to work with you to ensure that our military represents the ideals to which our nation aspires.

Sincerely,
Anthony Brown ( MD-04 ), Jackie Speier ( CA-14 ), Chris Pappas ( NH-01 ), Ted Lieu ( CA-33 ), Reuben Gallego ( AZ-07 ), Veronica Escobar ( TX-16 ), Deb Haaland ( NM-01 ), Nanette Diaz Barragan (CA-44), Earl Blumenauer (OR-03), Salud O. Carbajal (CA-24), Gilbert R. Cisneros, Jr. (CA-39), Yvette D. Clarke (NY-09), Susan A. Davis (CA-53), Suzan K. DelBene (WA-01), Debbie Dingell (MI-12), Jesus G. "Chuy" Garcia (IL-04), Raul M. Grijalva (AZ-03), Jared Huffman (CA-02), Joseph P. Kennedy, III (MA-04), Ro Khanna (CA-17), Stephen F. Lynch (MA-08), James P. McGovern (MA-02), Grace Meng (NY-06), Seth Moulton (MA-06), Ilhan Omar (MN-05), Jimmy Panetta (CA-20), Jamie Raskin (MD-08), Mary Gay Scanlon (PA-05), Jan Schakowsky (IL-09), Darren Soto (FL-09), Mark Takano (CA-41), Dina Titus (NV-01), Lori Trahan (MA-03), and Nydia M. Velazquez (NY-07)

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:23 pm**

The irony of U.S. politics is how many are duped into engaging in impassioned debate over the display of a flag meanwhile tens of millions risk evictions as we speak. The entirety of this system is a joke and the fact we are even having this debate shows how much our Corporate Establishment controls society at large.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:35 pm**

Blanket ban is a bit of an overreaction, they won't even let you show support for your favorite sports teams for crying out loud.
Flags of recognized Indian tribes should be allowed.
If some service members can't fly their "Southern pride" flag, then the rainbow flag should be banned as well, it's only fair.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:49 pm**

Good on the United States Military.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:53 pm**

Fair's fair, I suppose.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:23 pm**

This here is the only acceptable flag for the DOD, change my mind. It's evocative, beautiful even.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:57 pm**

Personally, I'd allow the Native American flags in addition to state and US flags. Native American tribes have an official legally recognized status, which sets them apart from ideological movements like neo-Confederates or LGBT pride.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:58 pm**

Heloin wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:There actually is precedent. US forces in Korea and Vietnam often painted fierce lion faces on the front of their tanks because they thought Asians were backwards and generally superstitious and thus be afraid of the drawings. It's total nonsense of course, and thus they weren't afraid of the drawings at all.

But maybe the LGBT flag would make the Jihadis afraid.

That's beautiful.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:02 pm**

The Two Jerseys wrote:
If some service members can't fly their "Southern pride" flag, then the rainbow flag should be banned as well, it's only fair.

To the best of my knowledge, the US military has never fought a long and bloody war against a treasonous insurrection flying the rainbow flag.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:07 pm**

I get state flags and I think native American flags can stay. Otherwise, I never understood the need to let soldiers display another nation's flag on an American base. Unless it's like... wartime, and you're showing solidarity with allies like having a British flag in WW2.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:09 pm**

Rusozak wrote:I get state flags and I think native American flags can stay. Otherwise, I never understood the need to let soldiers display another nation's flag on an American base. Unless it's like... wartime, and you're showing solidarity with allies like having a British flag in WW2.

Allied soldiers train at US bases, in which case I think their flags can be allowed.

Posted: **Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:13 pm**

Good, politics doesn't belong in the army.

NationStates

US Dep of Defense Limits Flag Use