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Zimbabwe Agrees to Compensate White Farmers

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:11 pm

Minskiev wrote:No, you’re thinking of what happened to the white farmers in Zimbabwe, the original crime.

The Natives would be compensated for the previous and possibly ongoing-ish sins, but not by kicking white people out.


But that''s what plenty of people are advocating for. That the US should give land back to "Native Americans". This WOULD mean kicking people out for things they didn't do.

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Postby Very High IQ » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:12 pm

Ammostan wrote:
Minskiev wrote:No, you’re thinking of what happened to the white farmers in Zimbabwe, the original crime.

The Natives would be compensated for the previous and possibly ongoing-ish sins, but not by kicking white people out.


But that''s what plenty of people are advocating for. That the US should give land back to "Native Americans". This WOULD mean kicking people out for things they didn't do.

Who is advocating for this

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:19 pm

Very High IQ wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
But that''s what plenty of people are advocating for. That the US should give land back to "Native Americans". This WOULD mean kicking people out for things they didn't do.

Who is advocating for this


You find comments like that all over every social media platform when the topic comes up. It's crazy that anyone would even suggest it. You can't rectify theft with more theft.

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Postby -Astoria- » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:25 pm

Ammostan wrote:
Very High IQ wrote:Who is advocating for this


You find comments like that all over every social media platform when the topic comes up. It's crazy that anyone would even suggest it. You can't rectify theft with more theft.
Would you like to show us?

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Postby Federal Republic Of America And The Cari » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:34 pm

Major-Tom wrote:Zimbabwe has seemingly been slowly de-Mugabeizing (if that phrase makes sense) these last few years, which is a positive development, and this is no exception.

I would hope that people can be civil in this thread and not racebait, but I don’t have much faith in that.

They should been doing that shit since the hyperinflation era,but I guess it's better now than never.
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:39 pm

-Astoria- wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
You find comments like that all over every social media platform when the topic comes up. It's crazy that anyone would even suggest it. You can't rectify theft with more theft.
Would you like to show us?


Eh. Sure sure, call it anecdotal. I'm not gonna scour reddit for a slam dunk. I'm just sayin' it's what I've seen. Usually in regards to illegal immigration.Typically the line goes something like "Native Americans were here BEFORE EUROPEANS SHOWED UP!!!! You have no right to complain about illegals!"

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Postby Proctopeo » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:42 pm

Minskiev wrote:Well, the difference is that Mugabe was under a lifetime ago, while the system of slavery ended over three, maybe four ago. So, it doesn’t make much sense to pay people who’s grandparents likely didn’t encounter it at all. Of course, then there’s the end of Reconstruction, but we’ve paid that off with the Civil Rights movement and the current BLM protests. So, if what’s happening now makes a big change, then there isn’t much of a need to do that in the US.

Yeah, that's one of the bigger differences between Zimbabwe and the US. The crimes in Zimbabwe happened only 20 years ago; lots of people who were wronged are likely still alive, assuming they weren't murdered in the process. Slavery in the US ended a good... 155 years ago or so? There's nobody directly wronged left - and basically no immediate children of them. The best course of action is instead to invest into disadvantaged communities, regardless of demographics. That's the only practical way reparations could be done anyway, as doing it based on skin color would be stupid, and doing it based on ancestry would be either incredibly difficult or easily exploited.
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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:44 pm

Qihein wrote:We should go by Zimbabwe's example of compensation and properly compensate Native Americans.

And how do you plan to carry that out?
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Postby Andsed » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:47 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Qihein wrote:We should go by Zimbabwe's example of compensation and properly compensate Native Americans.

And how do you plan to carry that out?

Investing in the living conditions of Native Reservations would be a good start.
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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:52 pm

Andsed wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:And how do you plan to carry that out?

Investing in the living conditions of Native Reservations would be a good start.

Yes but proper compensation of Native Americans is far more complicated than compensating white farmer’s lands who have been expropriated in recent decades. Most Native American land wasn’t even privately owned. Say you will compensate land based on the native American nations, well them in examples like the Illeniwik, who were conquered by the Huron before the US took that area, who will the land be given back to? The Huron or the Illeniwik?
Last edited by Aureumterra on Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby -Astoria- » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:55 pm

Ammostan wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Would you like to show us?


Eh. Sure sure, call it anecdotal. I'm not gonna scour reddit for a slam dunk. I'm just sayin' it's what I've seen. Usually in regards to illegal immigration.Typically the line goes something like "Native Americans were here BEFORE EUROPEANS SHOWED UP!!!! You have no right to complain about illegals!"
I mean, they ain't wrong on that point...

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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:02 pm

-Astoria- wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Eh. Sure sure, call it anecdotal. I'm not gonna scour reddit for a slam dunk. I'm just sayin' it's what I've seen. Usually in regards to illegal immigration.Typically the line goes something like "Native Americans were here BEFORE EUROPEANS SHOWED UP!!!! You have no right to complain about illegals!"
I mean, they ain't wrong on that point...


Preposterous. Europeans didn't sneak into an already established country to benefit off it's opportunities. There was no country here before Europeans came. Now, did the United States Government break treaties it made with settled peoples? Yes, and they shouldn't have. However, I should not be made to pay for any reparations made to those peoples.

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Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:05 pm

Ammostan wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:I mean, they ain't wrong on that point...


Preposterous. Europeans didn't sneak into an already established country to benefit off it's opportunities. There was no country here before Europeans came. Now, did the United States Government break treaties it made with settled peoples? Yes, and they shouldn't have. However, I should not be made to pay for any reparations made to those peoples.

You just learning about imperialism?
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Postby -Astoria- » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:10 pm

Ammostan wrote:Europeans didn't sneak into an already established country to benefit off it's opportunities.
Many kingdoms worldwide would like to have a talk.

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Postby Diarcesia » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:11 pm

Heloin wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
Preposterous. Europeans didn't sneak into an already established country to benefit off it's opportunities. There was no country here before Europeans came. Now, did the United States Government break treaties it made with settled peoples? Yes, and they shouldn't have. However, I should not be made to pay for any reparations made to those peoples.

You just learning about imperialism?

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:27 pm

Diarcesia wrote:
Heloin wrote:You just learning about imperialism?

Can't own the land if you don't have a title. *points to head*

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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:43 pm

So a country that is flat broke, and a bleak future is going to borrow money to give to folks it forcibly ran out of town 25 years ago. They are going to pay for it by floating bonds. Anyone going to buy that issue?
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:51 pm

-Astoria- wrote:
Ammostan wrote:Europeans didn't sneak into an already established country to benefit off it's opportunities.
Many kingdoms worldwide would like to have a talk.


I was referring to the Virginia colonies, specifically. Now tell me what country England invaded to establish a colony in the Americas? Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because there wasn't one. Now, what nation's immigration laws do you break by sneaking north of the Mexican border or overstaying your visa? The United States.

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Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:51 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:So a country that is flat broke, and a bleak future is going to borrow money to give to folks it forcibly ran out of town 25 years ago. They are going to pay for it by floating bonds. Anyone going to buy that issue?

Zimbabwe has been returning White owned farms as well. The selfish reason the government is doing that is to encourage whites back to boost the agricultural sector which has worked to some extent, last year there were some 300 white farmers compared to over a 1000 now and growing. It's why the compensation doesn't extend to land stolen since that's a separate process that's ongoing. The country is in free fall and needs sanctions to end, this will hopefully end sanctions and put them back on good standing with the more valuable trading partners of the USA, UK, and EU since China has done it's best to alienate African nations in the last year.
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Postby Heloin » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:52 pm

Ammostan wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Many kingdoms worldwide would like to have a talk.


I was referring to the Virginia colonies, specifically. Now tell me what country England invaded to establish a colony in the Americas? Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because there wasn't one.

The Powhatans.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:54 pm

Heloin wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:So a country that is flat broke, and a bleak future is going to borrow money to give to folks it forcibly ran out of town 25 years ago. They are going to pay for it by floating bonds. Anyone going to buy that issue?

Zimbabwe has been returning White owned farms as well. The selfish reason the government is doing that is to encourage whites back to boost the agricultural sector which has worked to some extent, last year there were some 300 white farmers compared to over a 1000 now and growing. It's why the compensation doesn't extend to land stolen since that's a separate process that's ongoing. The country is in free fall and needs sanctions to end, this will hopefully end sanctions and put them back on good standing with the more valuable trading partners of the USA, UK, and EU since China has done it's best to alienate African nations in the last year.


That sounds reasonable, though the question still stands, who is going to subscribe to the bond?
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:55 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Minskiev wrote:Well, the difference is that Mugabe was under a lifetime ago, while the system of slavery ended over three, maybe four ago. So, it doesn’t make much sense to pay people who’s grandparents likely didn’t encounter it at all. Of course, then there’s the end of Reconstruction, but we’ve paid that off with the Civil Rights movement and the current BLM protests. So, if what’s happening now makes a big change, then there isn’t much of a need to do that in the US.

Yeah, that's one of the bigger differences between Zimbabwe and the US. The crimes in Zimbabwe happened only 20 years ago; lots of people who were wronged are likely still alive, assuming they weren't murdered in the process. Slavery in the US ended a good... 155 years ago or so? There's nobody directly wronged left - and basically no immediate children of them. The best course of action is instead to invest into disadvantaged communities, regardless of demographics. That's the only practical way reparations could be done anyway, as doing it based on skin color would be stupid, and doing it based on ancestry would be either incredibly difficult or easily exploited.


This. Invest in the poorest communities regardless of race, and although Native Americans and African Americans would disproportionately benefit (as the poorest communities have disproportionately black and Native populations) it would still not be punishing or benefiting people solely on race. Obviously say the Obama children need no help. But obviously the poorest and most disadvantaged (regardless of race) do.

But the situation in Zimbabwe is quite different, as it targeted successful farmers for destruction, and destroying your most successful farms is just pants on head stupid.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Atheris » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:57 pm

Ammostan wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Many kingdoms worldwide would like to have a talk.


I was referring to the Virginia colonies, specifically. Now tell me what country England invaded to establish a colony in the Americas? Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because there wasn't one. Now, what nation's immigration laws do you break by sneaking north of the Mexican border or overstaying your visa? The United States.

The Powhatan and Algonquin nations, for starters.

Trust me. I live in Virginia.
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:00 pm

Atheris wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
I was referring to the Virginia colonies, specifically. Now tell me what country England invaded to establish a colony in the Americas? Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because there wasn't one. Now, what nation's immigration laws do you break by sneaking north of the Mexican border or overstaying your visa? The United States.

The Powhatan and Algonquin nations, for starters.

Trust me. I live in Virginia.


They were not modern states at the time, and did not have the same modern concept of the state. It is rather anachronistic to assign their 1600s societies modern concepts of statehood and borders, which they did not really have until the Europeans introduced/forced those concepts on them.

Native Americans at least in what is now the US generally lacked fixed borders and had no concept of Westphalian Sovereignty, and their land was amorphous And constantly shifting.
Last edited by Novus America on Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ammostan
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Postby Ammostan » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:09 pm

Heloin wrote:
Ammostan wrote:
I was referring to the Virginia colonies, specifically. Now tell me what country England invaded to establish a colony in the Americas? Oh, that's right. They didn't. Because there wasn't one.

The Powhatans.


I wouldn't categorize it as an invasion, and even if it was, treaties were made. And I already said that treaties should not have been broken. Still wouldn't make it right to evict the citizens who live in Virginia and give it to Powhatani descendants.

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