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Three countries form defense alliance against Russia

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:03 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You wherent the only one. Unfortunately russia has most of the cores needed to form the commonwealth so...

Do they? Ruthenia is Ukraine, and of course Poland and Lithuania are there. Belarus belongs to Russia though… for all intents and purposes


Unless you include Russia as controlling Belarus (which is complicated, as Belarus/Russian relations are very complicated and bipolar) actually very little of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth is part of Russia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_ ... ta2nar.png
Last edited by Novus America on Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm

Novus America wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:Do they? Ruthenia is Ukraine, and of course Poland and Lithuania are there. Belarus belongs to Russia though… for all intents and purposes


Unless you include Russia as controlling Belarus (which is complicated, as Belarus/Russian relations are very complicated and bipolar) actually very little of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth is part of Russia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_ ... ta2nar.png


True, but I doubt that Belarus would be willing to join Poland or Lithuania. And Belarus is technically White Russia, so it could still be called Russia :P
Last edited by Shofercia on Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:06 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:You could use this exact argument against your own statements. The Crimean War ended in 1856, yet there were no collapses of the French, Ottoman, and British Empires until 1870, 1918, and 1948, respectively... yeah, I'm going to say that there were some intervening factors there.

I'm going to stop here because you're not worth arguing with and refuse to admit when you're wrong. Even Lyttenburgh, a literal Russian history professor who works at the most prestigious academic institution in Russia, has told you, in no uncertain terms, that you do not have a basic grasp of Russian history, or of history in general.


Lyt's a PhD candidate, not a professor, but lying hasn't stopped you before. I've also been told by plenty of experts that there are WMDs in Iraq, those who hold PhDs, and Lyt never said that I have no grasp of history in general, or Russian History, so now you're just making shit up. For instance Lyt commended my understand of WWII History, so it's a tad hard to understand how someone can have no grasp of basic history, and yet be commended on understanding advanced history, but you do you UMN, you do you. Appealing to someone who was banned from NSG and thus cannot comment, in order to support your personal attack, is rather moronic, but then again, I've learned to expect that.

Also, not sure you're aware of this UMN, but 14 years is not that long in terms of history, and if you've grasped the very basics of basic history, you'd easily grasp that incredibly simple point, and 1870-1856 is 14 years. Also, if you're going to accuse someone of not understanding the basics of any subject, actually bother to read what they're saying, because I stated that:

The first Russo-Ottoman War involved, at least partially, Crimea. The second also involved Crimea and the third was fought in Crimea and Azov. In the end, it was Russia's military might that served as one of the primary reasons for the fall of the Ottoman Empire.


That has nothing to do with direct nexus, as I'm not stating that a single event led to it. I'm unsure how anyone daring to comment on the abilities' of others would've misread that, unless they were blatantly projecting.

So, once again: the Franco-Prussian War needed the Austro-Prussian War in order to take place. Hapsburg actions during the Crimean War led to a break in Hapsburg-Romanov relations, which enabled Bismarck to isolate Austria-Hungary.

As for your bullshit claim that I'd never admit that I'm wrong, here's me admitting that I was wrong:

Shofercia wrote:One of the reason's I like NSG, is that it's educational. I'd rather be proven wrong and learn something new, than proven right, repeatedly, although I do have a question: why the heck aren't schools teaching this stuff?


But hey, maybe that text is just in our imagination, at least according to Punished UMN...

Your original post omitted all of that information, your original post linked the fall of the British Empire to the Crimean War, an event 92 years prior, directly, with no allusion to earlier events.

I and several others pointed out to you that your statement was oversimplified, but rather than go "Oh, that is right, I omitted key information", you basically implied that we're just too simple minded to see how the Crimean War directly led to events half a century and nearly a century after it. You're too egocentric to bother with. And yes, Lytt and I have a lot of DM history where we talk about your understanding of history, particularly the Napoleonic Wars, being half-assed.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:31 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Lyt's a PhD candidate, not a professor, but lying hasn't stopped you before. I've also been told by plenty of experts that there are WMDs in Iraq, those who hold PhDs, and Lyt never said that I have no grasp of history in general, or Russian History, so now you're just making shit up. For instance Lyt commended my understand of WWII History, so it's a tad hard to understand how someone can have no grasp of basic history, and yet be commended on understanding advanced history, but you do you UMN, you do you. Appealing to someone who was banned from NSG and thus cannot comment, in order to support your personal attack, is rather moronic, but then again, I've learned to expect that.

Also, not sure you're aware of this UMN, but 14 years is not that long in terms of history, and if you've grasped the very basics of basic history, you'd easily grasp that incredibly simple point, and 1870-1856 is 14 years. Also, if you're going to accuse someone of not understanding the basics of any subject, actually bother to read what they're saying, because I stated that:



That has nothing to do with direct nexus, as I'm not stating that a single event led to it. I'm unsure how anyone daring to comment on the abilities' of others would've misread that, unless they were blatantly projecting.

So, once again: the Franco-Prussian War needed the Austro-Prussian War in order to take place. Hapsburg actions during the Crimean War led to a break in Hapsburg-Romanov relations, which enabled Bismarck to isolate Austria-Hungary.

As for your bullshit claim that I'd never admit that I'm wrong, here's me admitting that I was wrong:



But hey, maybe that text is just in our imagination, at least according to Punished UMN...

Your original post omitted all of that information, your original post linked the fall of the British Empire to the Crimean War, an event 92 years prior, directly, with no allusion to earlier events.

I and several others pointed out to you that your statement was oversimplified, but rather than go "Oh, that is right, I omitted key information", you basically implied that we're just too simple minded to see how the Crimean War directly led to events half a century and nearly a century after it. You're too egocentric to bother with. And yes, Lytt and I have a lot of DM history where we talk about your understanding of history, particularly the Napoleonic Wars, being half-assed.


Lyt was radically against my Francophilic interpretation of Napoleonic History between 1801 and 1812. Portraying a rough argument over an eleven year time period as misunderstanding all of basic history is something that only you can do, UMN.

If A and D are linked through B and C, then saying that A and D are linked is a correct and factual statement. I don't write essays on every post I make, as that would be annoying, and I'd rather not have posters go "he made a fucking chart" when they respond to me. As I was pressed for more information, I gradually explained what happened.

Regarding you 92 year bit, erm, the British Empire was on its way to fall after WWI, akin to the Romanov Empire being on its way to fall after 1881. Falling takes time. The Roman Empire also didn't fall overnight, just as Rome wasn't built in a day.

I've already explained how the Franco-Prussian War enabled the creation of Germany, which led to WWI. You're welcome to argue that the British Empire wasn't destined to fall after 1918, but unless you can make that argument, your 92 year claim is lulzy, at best.

Now, to address that part with Lyt. I thought that the first steps Csar Alexander the I should've taken, was to avenge his father's death, and then to ally with Napoleon. In 1801 Russia and France had the best armies in Europe, so an alliance would enable the duo to rule Europe. The US was working on securing the Louisiana Purchase, not just the purchase itself, but also colonizing the land, and Napoleon would've been primarily focusing on the British.

This left the Russian Empire with the ability to develop internally, and make massive internal improvements. With Napoleon in Europe, no other countries would dare challenge Russia on Russian soil. Think of what the Russians could've accomplished with two decades of unrestricted development. France and Britain would've focused on each other, Austria and Prussia were... how do I say this politely? Not a threat to Russia. China had internal issues - it was the perfect time to develop internally for the Russian Empire. Lyt very strongly disagrees with said assessment.

Why do I say two decades? Because if Russia didn't join a number of anti-Napoleonic Coalitions, Napoleon would've had no reason to invade Russia in 1812, an invasion that brought his downfall. I think he would've lasted at least until 2021. Here's what Putin's Russia accomplished by developing internally in a much worse situation, and with half the resources, in a more limited time frame:

Image


Edit: Why don't you trot on over to Lyt and ask him what he thinks of my understanding of Crimean History, because last time we talked, he wanted to debate it more and more with me, and those debates were quite amicable. We're talking about the Crimean War here, aren't we? Which would be a part of Crimean History, wouldn't it? Yes, yes it would.
Last edited by Shofercia on Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Latvijas Otra Republika
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Postby Latvijas Otra Republika » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:31 pm

Bit too late
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:49 pm

What does this line of discussion have to do with the 'Lublin Triangle'?
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Auze » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:21 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
No State Here wrote:I think I’ve been playing too much EU4, but the first thing that popped into my mind was the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth resurrected

You wheren't the only one. Unfortunately Russia has most of the cores needed to form the commonwealth so...

All of the cores needed to form the Commonwealth in EU4 are: Danzig, Warszawa, Krakow, Vilna, Minsk, Kiev, Marienburg, and Turov. All of these are currently under Polish (Danzig, Warszawa, Krakow, and Marienburg), Ukrainian (Kiev), Lithuanian (Vilna), or Belarusian (Minsk and Turov) control.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:57 pm

Auze wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You wheren't the only one. Unfortunately Russia has most of the cores needed to form the commonwealth so...

All of the cores needed to form the Commonwealth in EU4 are: Danzig, Warszawa, Krakow, Vilna, Minsk, Kiev, Marienburg, and Turov. All of these are currently under Polish (Danzig, Warszawa, Krakow, and Marienburg), Ukrainian (Kiev), Lithuanian (Vilna), or Belarusian (Minsk and Turov) control.


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Postby Rio Cana » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:51 pm

Minskiev wrote:Like I thought, AN’s Russian. You realize Russia lost the Crimean War, right?


If only Catherine had still been around things might have ended up differently.

Edit - When it comes to this defense alliance, it favors Poland and Lithuania since they can do the fighting in Ukraine. Yes, both Poland and Lithuania border Kaliningrad which is Russia but the Russian main forces are in Russia proper.

I think Ukraine should be left has a neutral buffer State.
Last edited by Rio Cana on Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby New Rogernomics » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:59 pm

I don't think that perpetual NATO-Russia hostility is beneficial in the long-term. Neither side unfortunately wants to suggest disbanding NATO and CSTO, demilitarizing the borders, and establishing an alternative organization in Europe to maintain the peace, which would probably be the better way to go than both sides continuing to play geo-politics. There are quite a few suggestions from Russia to disband NATO, though they are disingenuous in the sense that Russia has never offered to demilitarize their own borders at the same time and remove nuclear weapons from Kaliningrad - while effectively demanding the equivalent from NATO countries.

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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:35 pm

Dear Mr. President, we have sent an elegant letter to
Russian Tsar Vladimir Putin:
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Somehow, they see it as an insult
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:49 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:What does this line of discussion have to do with the 'Lublin Triangle'?


To deliberately distract from it probably.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:51 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:What does this line of discussion have to do with the 'Lublin Triangle'?


To deliberately distract from it probably.


Crap, he's onto us! Talking about Russian History in a thread where Russia's mentioned in the title, is a secret plot to... because otherwise... something would happen... I guess. Yeah, that insane conspiracy theory fell apart rather quickly. Also, whining about a tangent, 10 hours after the tangent ended, is just incredibly poor form, even if you accept that talking about Crimea, in a thread where the OP specifically states that returning Crimea to Ukraine is one of this soon to be unsuccessful organization's demand, is somehow a tangent.

Crimea's not going back. It's Russian clay.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:15 pm

Shofercia wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
To deliberately distract from it probably.


Crap, he's onto us! Talking about Russian History in a thread where Russia's mentioned in the title, is a secret plot to... because otherwise... something would happen... I guess. Yeah, that insane conspiracy theory fell apart rather quickly. Also, whining about a tangent, 10 hours after the tangent ended, is just incredibly poor form, even if you accept that talking about Crimea, in a thread where the OP specifically states that returning Crimea to Ukraine is one of this soon to be unsuccessful organization's demand, is somehow a tangent.

Crimea's not going back. It's Russian clay.

Which makes Azov a Russian puddle.
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Add 3000 years for the date I use.

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:38 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Crap, he's onto us! Talking about Russian History in a thread where Russia's mentioned in the title, is a secret plot to... because otherwise... something would happen... I guess. Yeah, that insane conspiracy theory fell apart rather quickly. Also, whining about a tangent, 10 hours after the tangent ended, is just incredibly poor form, even if you accept that talking about Crimea, in a thread where the OP specifically states that returning Crimea to Ukraine is one of this soon to be unsuccessful organization's demand, is somehow a tangent.

Crimea's not going back. It's Russian clay.

Which makes Azov a Russian puddle.


Very true, or as Teal'c would say:

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Postby Hurdergaryp » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:16 pm

Ansarre wrote:Wonderful! This should be expanded to cover all of Europe however. NATO is obsolete at this point, I think a united European Army is the way forward.

Page wrote:Funny how Poland struggled so long against Russian influence but are now ruled by reactionary far-right politicians just like Putin is.

Thank you for your analysis of our politics, oh wise American. Poland doesn't have a reactionary far-right government, the far-right are small in Poland. Konfederacja has just 11/460 seats in the Sejm, and aren't in government. PiS are just a nationalist party, they're not far-right.

"Historically used to describe the experiences of fascism and Nazism,[7] today far-right politics includes neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, Third Position, the alt-right, white nationalism, and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of ultranationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, anti-communist, or reactionary views." - Wikipedia on what is far-right. PiS are... NONE of these!

None? Like, members of PiS never made any remarks or introduced any policies that could be considered chauvinist, homophobic, reactionary or anti-communist? Weird. The Dutch and British news tend to paint a somewhat different picture. But perhaps you're right and the PiS isn't trying to do with Poland what Erdogan did with Turkey.


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Postby The Rich Port » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:39 pm

Well hopefully that's enough. I hear they're far-right, hopefully they don't alienate the rest of Europe or else uh... Proactive as the move is, it's IMO a bit of a meh move.

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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:24 pm

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Ansarre wrote:Wonderful! This should be expanded to cover all of Europe however. NATO is obsolete at this point, I think a united European Army is the way forward.


Thank you for your analysis of our politics, oh wise American. Poland doesn't have a reactionary far-right government, the far-right are small in Poland. Konfederacja has just 11/460 seats in the Sejm, and aren't in government. PiS are just a nationalist party, they're not far-right.

"Historically used to describe the experiences of fascism and Nazism,[7] today far-right politics includes neo-fascism, neo-Nazism, Third Position, the alt-right, white nationalism, and other ideologies or organizations that feature aspects of ultranationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, anti-communist, or reactionary views." - Wikipedia on what is far-right. PiS are... NONE of these!

None? Like, members of PiS never made any remarks or introduced any policies that could be considered chauvinist, homophobic, reactionary or anti-communist? Weird. The Dutch and British news tend to paint a somewhat different picture. But perhaps you're right and the PiS isn't trying to do with Poland what Erdogan did with Turkey.


I think the deal here is calling something which is simply illiberal to be "far right". I don't know a ton about PiS, but they don't come off to me as something similar to, say, Spencer and the Alt-Right in America.
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Solvokina
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Postby Solvokina » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:14 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:[Suspiciously well-equipped Russian volunteers spontaneously spawn in, distant hardbass]

I can see this happening again

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Solvokina
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Postby Solvokina » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:15 am

I doubt Russian aggression is gonna do anything. USA and Russia should align together against a little nation called China
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:38 am

Solvokina wrote:I doubt Russian aggression is gonna do anything. USA and Russia should align together against a little nation called China


Cosy up with the Russian bear?
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Solvokina
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Postby Solvokina » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:16 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Solvokina wrote:I doubt Russian aggression is gonna do anything. USA and Russia should align together against a little nation called China


Cosy up with the Russian bear?

Yes
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A secure nation bound together by the horrors of war
Australian-Serb going to school for Chemical or Nuclear
Engineering. Fanatic about weapons, science and modern history. Huge fan of Yakuza

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Novus America
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36360
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:39 am

Solvokina wrote:I doubt Russian aggression is gonna do anything. USA and Russia should align together against a little nation called China


Russia does not seem very keen. Their government’s anti-Westernism and desire for revenge for perceived slights blinds them to the threat the PRC poses.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Prizea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 727
Founded: May 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prizea » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:32 am

Novus America wrote:
Solvokina wrote:I doubt Russian aggression is gonna do anything. USA and Russia should align together against a little nation called China


Russia does not seem very keen. Their government’s anti-Westernism and desire for revenge for perceived slights blinds them to the threat the PRC poses.


Yeah, pretty much this ^

Plus, why would either the USA or Russia want to make that sort of deal anyway: its almost certainly going to be a mistake no matter which side you look at it from...

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The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6145
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:49 am

Aureumterra wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
Way to cherry-pick between the lines racist, homophobic and chauvinistic. Almost impressive in how bizarre that is.

Anyyyyways, good on the 3 for this makeshift alliance.

Also says third positions is far right. When third positions was created specifically to not be left or right

The modern third position was started by fascists shortly after World War 2, after that particular extravaganza of shittiness made it no bueno to be openly fascist. Nowadays many third positionist groups are full of neo-fascists and even neo-Nazis and white nationalists using the “third position” label as a means to hide their power level.
Hey, it’s up to us to take our Umbrella.
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.1

PRO:
- Free speech
- Democracy
- Weapons Rights
- LGBTQ+ Rights
- Due Process
- Religious Freedom
- Choice
- Gender & Sexual Equality
- Racial Equality
- Workers Rights
- Universal Healthcare
- Secularism
ANTI:
- Fascism/Nazism
- Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism
- Racism
- Sexism
- Xenophobia
- Homophobia
- Transphobia
- Ethno-nationalism
- Nationalism
- Racial Supremacy
- Conservatism
- Traditionalism
- Religious Extremism
- Laissez-faire capitalism
- Antivaxx
- TERF/SWERF
- Theocracy

Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

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