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The American Eviction Crisis: Countdown to Doomsday

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San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43812
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:02 am

Ifreann wrote:
San Lumen wrote:the banks would fail and the global financial system would collapse. You'd bankrupt countless business and create even more homelessness and misery than any pandemic ever could.

But despite what any economic expert would tell you you'd deny it and say you know better.

I would love to hear how you think there could possibly be more homelessness if we make it so that everyone gets a home. When it costs $0 to keep your house, what do you think would happen to make people homeless?


If the banks fail where is money going to come from? Or where the 1930s a happy time for everyone?

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 140610
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:03 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Extremely confused that someone wants to help actual human people and doesn't care about non-human entities that exist only as paperwork, what could possibly motivate this bizarre behaviour?


have you been listening to what im saying? Your idea would completely destroy the global economy and a pandemic would be nothing compared to the misery it brings. But your too blinded by ideology to see that.

Me: "I don't want people to be made homeless"
Lumen: "Your blinded by ideology, you will hurt all the banks!"
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Juristonia
Senator
 
Posts: 4854
Founded: Oct 30, 2006
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Juristonia » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:25 am

For someone who regularly complains about hyperbole, he's definitely fond of the "any plan I don't like will implode everything everywhere forever" routine, isn't he?
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Ifreann
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Posts: 140610
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:25 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I would love to hear how you think there could possibly be more homelessness if we make it so that everyone gets a home. When it costs $0 to keep your house, what do you think would happen to make people homeless?


If the banks fail where is money going to come from? Or where the 1930s a happy time for everyone?

When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43812
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:26 am

Ifreann wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
If the banks fail where is money going to come from? Or where the 1930s a happy time for everyone?

When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?


Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 140610
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:30 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?


Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

The part where people become homeless when it costs them $0 to keep their house. What's going to make them homeless, Lumen?
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 65912
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Genivaria » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:43 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?


Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

Can you actually explain what the problem is instead of resorting to hysteria?
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Salandriagado
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21933
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:41 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?


Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?


Banking is not dependent on mortgages. Banks have plenty of other revenue sources to keep them going. Indeed, disenganging their activities from such risky things as mortgages seems like an excellent idea (and, indeed, is exactly what they've spent the last couple of decades doing an utterly shite job of doing for themselves).
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Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

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Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

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Region of Dwipantara
Diplomat
 
Posts: 554
Founded: Dec 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Region of Dwipantara » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:58 am

Salandriagado wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?


Banking is not dependent on mortgages. Banks have plenty of other revenue sources to keep them going. Indeed, disenganging their activities from such risky things as mortgages seems like an excellent idea (and, indeed, is exactly what they've spent the last couple of decades doing an utterly shite job of doing for themselves).

To be fair, if there are to be significant reforms that will severely impact major financial institutions, this is a pretty bad year to do so.
Last edited by Region of Dwipantara on Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thermodolia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 59619
Founded: Oct 07, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:58 am

San Lumen wrote:
Ifreann wrote:When it costs $0 to keep your house, how do you become homeless from not having money?


Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

Actually it would do the opposite and free the banks from underwriting risky loans.
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San Lumen
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Posts: 43812
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:10 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

Actually it would do the opposite and free the banks from underwriting risky loans.

Why haven’t we done it then?

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Vetalia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13367
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:54 pm

Ifreann wrote:The part where people become homeless when it costs them $0 to keep their house. What's going to make them homeless, Lumen?


For starters, if they can't afford the property taxes or can't afford the repairs to keep the property in good condition.
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"NOPE," Blaine agreed. "IT WAS A LOT WORSE THAN THAT, AND IT'S NOT OVER YET."

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 105965
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:18 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Your plans are beyond impractical and delusional. Canceling all rent and mortgages would mean the banks fail and the global financial system collapses. What part of this do you not get?

Actually it would do the opposite and free the banks from underwriting risky loans.

secured loans are the least risky loans a bank writes. You don't pay it, they take the property.
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Vetalia
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Posts: 13367
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:27 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:secured loans are the least risky loans a bank writes. You don't pay it, they take the property.


Sort of, the problem is they decided to issue debt securities backed by those same loans to earn additional income and then, well, the rest is history.

And of course, if they take enough properties the value of all of them collapse while still being on the hook for the maintenance and property tax costs.
"This was no nuclear war," Eddie said. "This...this..." His thin, horrified voice sounded like that of a child.
"NOPE," Blaine agreed. "IT WAS A LOT WORSE THAN THAT, AND IT'S NOT OVER YET."

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 105965
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:30 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:secured loans are the least risky loans a bank writes. You don't pay it, they take the property.


Sort of, the problem is they decided to issue debt securities backed by those same loans to earn additional income and then, well, the rest is history.

And of course, if they take enough properties the value of all of them collapse while still being on the hook for the maintenance and property tax costs.

That was the way they mixed the paper. If only good loans were in those bonds, the crises might not have happened.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 37688
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:34 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Sort of, the problem is they decided to issue debt securities backed by those same loans to earn additional income and then, well, the rest is history.

And of course, if they take enough properties the value of all of them collapse while still being on the hook for the maintenance and property tax costs.

That was the way they mixed the paper. If only good loans were in those bonds, the crises might not have happened.


The bad paper still existed and bankers would have still bet on it. The only way to have prevented it was to make issuing bad loans illegal.
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Vetalia
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Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:34 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:That was the way they mixed the paper. If only good loans were in those bonds, the crises might not have happened.


Sure, but that was never going to happen with the way things were set up, particularly after Slick Willie and the Republicans pushed through so much deregulation at the top of the bubble in 1999. When the Fed crushed yields in 2001-2004 due to an utterly over-exaggerated response to the collapse of the dot-com bubble/corporate scandals/9/11 the fuse was primed and lit and it was only a matter of time before it blew.
"This was no nuclear war," Eddie said. "This...this..." His thin, horrified voice sounded like that of a child.
"NOPE," Blaine agreed. "IT WAS A LOT WORSE THAN THAT, AND IT'S NOT OVER YET."

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 105965
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:40 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:That was the way they mixed the paper. If only good loans were in those bonds, the crises might not have happened.


The bad paper still existed and bankers would have still bet on it. The only way to have prevented it was to make issuing bad loans illegal.


The paper was bad because the paper was mixed. They all had subprime loans in them, and those were the ones that primarily stopped paying The thing that makes you sorta right is the banks created these bonds to get these loans off their books.

The other way that it would have worked as if the loans were rated properly. If I remember they were a+ (if not aaa) rated bonds that should have been junk.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

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Fartsniffage
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Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:45 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The bad paper still existed and bankers would have still bet on it. The only way to have prevented it was to make issuing bad loans illegal.


The paper was bad because the paper was mixed. They all had subprime loans in them, and those were the ones that primarily stopped paying The thing that makes you sorta right is the banks created these bonds to get these loans off their books.

The other way that it would have worked as if the loans were rated properly. If I remember they were a+ (if not aaa) rated bonds that should have been junk.


The privatisation of the ratings agencies did that. And yes, there were junk double and triple a bonds being issued.
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Vetalia
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Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:54 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:The paper was bad because the paper was mixed. They all had subprime loans in them, and those were the ones that primarily stopped paying The thing that makes you sorta right is the banks created these bonds to get these loans off their books.

The other way that it would have worked as if the loans were rated properly. If I remember they were a+ (if not aaa) rated bonds that should have been junk.


The problem is the ratings agencies and issuers lied about the quality of the paper that was being sold.

It's not unusual to have multiple tranches in a CDO, even including subprime or garbage debt, but it had reached such an extreme it was outright criminal that the issuers would have ever attempted to pass off such garbage CDOs as even remotely investment grade, the ratings agencies notwithstanding.
"This was no nuclear war," Eddie said. "This...this..." His thin, horrified voice sounded like that of a child.
"NOPE," Blaine agreed. "IT WAS A LOT WORSE THAN THAT, AND IT'S NOT OVER YET."

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Vetalia
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Posts: 13367
Founded: Mar 23, 2005
Corporate Bordello

Postby Vetalia » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:00 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:The privatisation of the ratings agencies did that. And yes, there were junk double and triple a bonds being issued.


The ratings agencies were always privately owned, at least in the United States.
"This was no nuclear war," Eddie said. "This...this..." His thin, horrified voice sounded like that of a child.
"NOPE," Blaine agreed. "IT WAS A LOT WORSE THAN THAT, AND IT'S NOT OVER YET."

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 37688
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:09 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:The privatisation of the ratings agencies did that. And yes, there were junk double and triple a bonds being issued.


The ratings agencies were always privately owned, at least in the United States.


Yes, I'm wrong about that.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Ethel mermania
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 105965
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:12 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
The ratings agencies were always privately owned, at least in the United States.


Yes, I'm wrong about that.

I was going to ask that, is bond rating public or private on your side of the pond?
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 37688
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:18 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Yes, I'm wrong about that.

I was going to ask that, is bond rating public or private on your side of the pond?


I'm honestly not even sure that we have any, despite the size of the LSE. Certainly not any of the size of S&P, Moodys or Fitch.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 140610
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:43 am

Vetalia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The part where people become homeless when it costs them $0 to keep their house. What's going to make them homeless, Lumen?


For starters, if they can't afford the property taxes

Ifreann wrote:costs them $0 to keep their house.

or can't afford the repairs to keep the property in good condition.

If someone's house becomes unfit for human habitation then we should probably just give them somewhere else to live, rather than force them out on the streets.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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