The American Eviction Crisis: Countdown to Doomsday

[Lanoraie II]

I can't imagine being someone who rents out places in this pandemic and is so heartless as to evict people. If you rent out places, you're probably making some good money even with the pandemic. I wouldn't be able to kick people out because they lost their jobs due to the pandemic. I'd try to help them find a job in the meantime so they don't starve.

[Vetalia]

Dismissing any economic theory as "bullshit" out of hand is dumb.

Let me try to explain Mirjt's statement through economics:

The labor theory of value gives that the inherent value of every commodity and service is a function of the amount of labor and quality of the labor applied to produce it. The concept of cost the limit of price further gives that the only fair payment for a commodity of service is an equal amount of labor to the value of the commodity or service or a commodity or service of equal labor value. The rent that a landlord makes, even if they do do upkeep on the property themselves, is obviously not in proportion to their labor.

According to this economic conception, the only fair way to accumulate capital is by making sure the labor value you produce is greater than the labor value you consume. Profit is also unethical, since it is the difference between the amount of labor value you receive and the amount of labor value you exchange for it, which according to cost the limit of the price ought to be zero. Corporations can only make this profit by either exchanging products with consumers for more than the labor value of the products, or by compensating their workers with something less labor value than the full value of their labor. According to cost the limit of price, both ways are unethical and "stealing," from either the worker or the consumer.

How do you determine the value of labor?

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

That was rhetorical.

And your back to bullshit.
Have a nice day.

Dismissing any economic theory as "bullshit" out of hand is dumb.

Let me try to explain Mirjt's statement through economics:

The labor theory of value gives that the inherent value of every commodity and service is a function of the amount of labor and quality of the labor applied to produce it. The concept of cost the limit of price further gives that the only fair payment for a commodity of service is an equal amount of labor to the value of the commodity or service or a commodity or service of equal labor value. The rent that a landlord makes, even if they do do upkeep on the property themselves, is obviously not in proportion to their labor.

According to this economic conception, the only fair way to accumulate capital is by making sure the labor value you produce is greater than the labor value you consume. Profit is also unethical, since it is the difference between the amount of labor value you receive and the amount of labor value you exchange for it, which according to cost the limit of the price ought to be zero. Corporations can only make this profit by either exchanging products with consumers for more than the labor value of the products, or by compensating their workers with something less labor value than the full value of their labor. According to cost the limit of price, both ways are unethical and "stealing," from either the worker or the consumer.

Dismissing anything Marxist is smart. There's some bad actions that discussion won't ever fix and can only enable. You dont engage them.
And im going to keep doing it.

[Vetalia]

I can't imagine being someone who rents out places in this pandemic and is so heartless as to evict people. If you rent out places, you're probably making some good money even with the pandemic. I wouldn't be able to kick people out because they lost their jobs due to the pandemic. I'd try to help them find a job in the meantime so they don't starve.

It depends heavily on the circumstances; if the property is new, indebted or has high fixed operating costs, the landlord may not be able to afford a significant number of vacancies or delinquent rent payments for any significant period of time. Generally speaking eviction is the last resort to address issues of nonpayment or other problems, especially if the tenant has a history of paying rent and overall being a good tenant. Better to give someone dependable a break rather than risk bringing in an unknown that might end up being worse.

And of course, there is no guarantee that the renter is telling the truth about their situation or inability to pay rent. Plenty of people would take advantage of a landlord's willingness to waive their rental payments and keep the money for themselves if they could get away with it.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Dismissing any economic theory as "bullshit" out of hand is dumb.

Let me try to explain Mirjt's statement through economics:

The labor theory of value gives that the inherent value of every commodity and service is a function of the amount of labor and quality of the labor applied to produce it. The concept of cost the limit of price further gives that the only fair payment for a commodity of service is an equal amount of labor to the value of the commodity or service or a commodity or service of equal labor value. The rent that a landlord makes, even if they do do upkeep on the property themselves, is obviously not in proportion to their labor.

According to this economic conception, the only fair way to accumulate capital is by making sure the labor value you produce is greater than the labor value you consume. Profit is also unethical, since it is the difference between the amount of labor value you receive and the amount of labor value you exchange for it, which according to cost the limit of the price ought to be zero. Corporations can only make this profit by either exchanging products with consumers for more than the labor value of the products, or by compensating their workers with something less labor value than the full value of their labor. According to cost the limit of price, both ways are unethical and "stealing," from either the worker or the consumer.

Dismissing anything Marxist is smart. There's some bad actions that discussion won't ever fix and can only enable. You dont engage them.
And im going to keep doing it.

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

[Saiwania]

I can't imagine being someone who rents out places in this pandemic and is so heartless as to evict people. If you rent out places, you're probably making some good money even with the pandemic. I wouldn't be able to kick people out because they lost their jobs due to the pandemic. I'd try to help them find a job in the meantime so they don't starve.

Unless you own the place outright, you usually have to evict tenants who can't pay. Else the bank is going to foreclose on the mortgage if payments stop being made. It is out of most landlords' hands practically speaking. You're saddled with property taxes and maintenance costs whether you own your real estate in full or not.

It isn't worth your time to help someone else land a job (except in the rare instance where it really is in your power to hire someone for something you need doing that'd be profitable) because chances are, someone else will soon have the same problem and its just not possible to help everyone. Every person's time is very much limited. You'll get nowhere caring too much in my experience.

The cruel reality is that the evictions happen because there isn't an alternative at present. It is the only decision that will make economic sense in the absence of an intervention that'd enable the mortgages to keep being paid or to be on pause until it can resume when all is well again.

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

Dismissing anything Marxist is smart. There's some bad actions that discussion won't ever fix and can only enable. You dont engage them.
And im going to keep doing it.

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

Thats exactly how I treat them.
Let them go in peace knowing that their crap won't be spread here.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

Thats exactly how I treat them.
Let them go in peace knowing that their crap won't be spread here.

So, I'm hearing that you refuse to engage with anyone who holds differing beliefs from you.

Ok then.

[Ethel mermania]

Dismissing anything Marxist is smart. There's some bad actions that discussion won't ever fix and can only enable. You dont engage them.
And im going to keep doing it.

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

It's still dumb though. The value of anything is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How would the labor theory of value price a used car sale?

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

Thats exactly how I treat them.
Let them go in peace knowing that their crap won't be spread here.

So, I'm hearing that you refuse to engage with anyone who holds differing beliefs from you.

Ok then.

Different does not include extremist.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

It's still dumb though. The value of anything is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How would the labor theory of value price a used car sale?

Key word is inherent.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

So, I'm hearing that you refuse to engage with anyone who holds differing beliefs from you.

Ok then.

Different does not include extremist.

Treat the discussion as you trying to disabuse me of my "extremist" views.

Besides, neither of the two people are all that extreme. Adam Smith is basically the first economist to theorize about capitalism and Josiah Warren is an individualist anarcho-pacifist, basically an ultra-libertarian.

[Mirjt]

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

It's still dumb though. The value of anything is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How would the labor theory of value price a used car sale?

Marx used a version of the labor theory of value, which was already in place from other economic thinkers long before Marx. The labor theory of value doesn't say that all labor is equally valuable, just that all value comes from labor. It takes into account utility value, as well as intellectual labor, as well as the raw materials, however that requires reading through the full labor theory of value.

---

However, this conversation seems to drifting further and further from housing. I understand that I engaged in this (as I do not think that it is that big a deal to have short tangential conversations which can lead context into how to think about the main conversation), and I understand that this conversation about marxism and labor theory of value spawned from this response I made:

Irrelevant. They own the property, it's theirs to use it how they wish.

Except private property is theft.

P.S. private property is not the same as personal property (personal property is not theft).
P.S. if we choose to allow private property at all, it should be well regulated and taxed.

However, the point I was trying to make is that the landlord is not or should not be all powerful regarding the property, and that the existence of landlords and rent is a form of theft. We should prioritize the needs of the tenants and housing insecure first.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Pretending that everything you don't like is Marxist is dumb. The labor theory of value originates with Adam Smith and cost the limit of price with Josiah Warren, who actually opposed communism.

Don't be close-minded. What would you think if a religious zealot refused to engage in any discussion over the veracity of their religious beliefs?

It's still dumb though. The value of anything is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How would the labor theory of value price a used car sale?

The money paid for the used car can command a certain amount of labor. The value of the used car is ultimately the labor an equivalent amount of money commands. Money isn't useful in of itself-it is useful because of the labor it commands.

[Saiwania]

However, the point I was trying to make is that the landlord is not or should not be all powerful regarding the property, and that the existence of landlords and rent is a form of theft. We should prioritize the needs of the tenants and housing insecure first.

Landlords usually answer to a bank (if they don't own the real estate outright). Remember that it normally takes 15+ years to pay off a mortgage. Rent isn't theft in my mind, the buyer is still getting a material good/service for their money. In exchange for helping to pay the mortgage off, the tenant is being granted full use of the space they're entitled to, regardless of how costly it may be to the landlord over the long term, such as if a tenant breaks everything in the room or is a slob.

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

Different does not include extremist.

Treat the discussion as you trying to disabuse me of my "extremist" views.

Besides, neither of the two people are all that extreme. Adam Smith is basically the first economist to theorize about capitalism and Josiah Warren is an individualist anarcho-pacifist, basically an ultra-libertarian.

We can provide a decent standard of living with our current property rights. So changing them is extreme.

[Ethel mermania]

It's still dumb though. The value of anything is what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How would the labor theory of value price a used car sale?

The money paid for the used car can command a certain amount of labor. The value of the used car is ultimately the labor an equivalent amount of money commands. Money isn't useful in of itself-it is useful because of the labor it commands.

I dont understand what the bolded means.

Money is useful as to the value we assign to it. Price is the measure of value of an object or labor.

And as the other poster said this is kind of a thread jack, so I will ask and let you respond then drop it

Let me ask this. If your costs, labor and materials turn out to be 120 dollars per widget. But no one will pay more than 100 dollars for it? What is the value of that widget?

[Mirjt]

However, the point I was trying to make is that the landlord is not or should not be all powerful regarding the property, and that the existence of landlords and rent is a form of theft. We should prioritize the needs of the tenants and housing insecure first.

Landlords usually answer to a bank (if they don't own the real estate outright). Remember that it normally takes 15+ years to pay off a mortgage. Rent isn't theft in my mind, the buyer is still getting a material good/service for their money. In exchange for helping to pay the mortgage off, the tenant is being granted full use of the space they're entitled to, regardless of how costly it may be to the landlord over the long term, such as if a tenant breaks everything in the room or is a slob.

Essentially the tenant is paying the landlord's mortgage for the landlord, plus any of the costs the landlord has to supposedly do maintenance. When the landlord is done paying off the mortgage, they will have the full power to extract rent from people just living in their homes because the landlord has a piece of paper that says they own that house they don't live in. Though, I do agree that the bank is acting like the true landlord, regardless if they are renting the property themselves, having a landlord who owes them money rent out the property, or charging a mortgage with interests to the people living in the property.

[Conservative Republic Of Huang]

Treat the discussion as you trying to disabuse me of my "extremist" views.

Besides, neither of the two people are all that extreme. Adam Smith is basically the first economist to theorize about capitalism and Josiah Warren is an individualist anarcho-pacifist, basically an ultra-libertarian.

We can provide a decent standard of living with our current property rights. So changing them is extreme.

The Chinese government has lifted millions out of poverty, and essentially established a basic standard of living. So changing the government is extreme.

Things can always be better. Nothing will ever be perfect, but it is the duty of all of us to strive toward that goal at least.

[Mirjt]

The money paid for the used car can command a certain amount of labor. The value of the used car is ultimately the labor an equivalent amount of money commands. Money isn't useful in of itself-it is useful because of the labor it commands.

I dont understand what the bolded means.

Money is useful as to the value we assign to it. Price is the measure of value of an object or labor.

And as the other poster said this is kind of a thread jack, so I will ask and let you respond then drop it

Let me ask this. If your costs, labor and materials turn out to be 120 dollars per widget. But no one will pay more than 100 dollars for it? What is the value of that widget?

Here is a 40 minute video, where a marxian socialist defending Marx's version of the labor theory of value from right-wing critics of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4QsuZgw164

It answers a number of your questions (mostly regarding utility) about the LTV.

[Mirjt]

Treat the discussion as you trying to disabuse me of my "extremist" views.

Besides, neither of the two people are all that extreme. Adam Smith is basically the first economist to theorize about capitalism and Josiah Warren is an individualist anarcho-pacifist, basically an ultra-libertarian.

We can provide a decent standard of living with our current property rights. So changing them is extreme.

While I consider our current system of property rights to be wrong and to be theft, that was not in my list of solutions. Here is my quote:

The solution to a housing crisis is simple: GIVE PEOPLE HOUSING

The solution to an economic crisis is simple: GIVE PEOPLE MONEY

The solution to a job crisis is simple: GIVE PEOPLE JOBS

---

We should:

0. Have an indefinite moratorium on both rent and mortgage payments (possibly just cancelling mortgage debt, like cancelling student debt and medical debt) until a full year after the pandemic has ended (which will probably be sometime in late 2021 to early 2023).
1. Guarantee, rent-free or low-rent, quality public/social housing to every single applicant - NO EXCEPTIONS
2. Create and subsidize housing cooperatives, community land trusts, and non-profit community development corporations (which will build more affordable, quality housing)
3. National rent control and expanding the rights and protections of tenants
4. An extremely high tax on vacant property (and while we are at it, luxury property too)
5. Specific regulations that allow people to get affordable mortgages and make it easier to affordably refinance (always in the favor of the borrower and never in the favor of the lender, I don't care if lenders and banks make less profit or even a loss, I don't value profit).

[Greed and Death]

I can't imagine being someone who rents out places in this pandemic and is so heartless as to evict people. If you rent out places, you're probably making some good money even with the pandemic. I wouldn't be able to kick people out because they lost their jobs due to the pandemic. I'd try to help them find a job in the meantime so they don't starve.

Generally apartments start losing money once they dip below 90% paying tenants. In many cases they really don't have a choice.

[Ethel mermania]

I dont understand what the bolded means.

Money is useful as to the value we assign to it. Price is the measure of value of an object or labor.

And as the other poster said this is kind of a thread jack, so I will ask and let you respond then drop it

Let me ask this. If your costs, labor and materials turn out to be 120 dollars per widget. But no one will pay more than 100 dollars for it? What is the value of that widget?

Here is a 40 minute video, where a marxian socialist defending Marx's version of the labor theory of value from right-wing critics of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4QsuZgw164

It answers a number of your questions (mostly regarding utility) about the LTV.

I am not going to watch a 40 min video on anything, but I did read the LTV wikipedia page, and I get what it means. How much labor did I have to work to purchase that car. Which is quasi-indenpendent of the cost of the car.

But thank you anyway I think I have a better understanding of it.

[Bassoe]

Here's a simpler solution to legally forcing a rent freeze or building free housing or going full communism, etc. You know those $500 billion bailouts of taxpayer for megacorps, which went straight into executive bonuses and bribing campaign donating to politicians to give even more bailouts in the future, where it will never do the slightest good? What if instead, that exact same sum had been equally divided and passed out to every single American citizen, so they could afford to survive with their jobs closed down for the quarantine, where it'd be recirculated back into the economy in the form of essential purchases?

[Mirjt]

Here's a simpler solution to legally forcing a rent freeze or building free housing or going full communism, etc. You know those $500 billion bailouts of taxpayer for megacorps, which went straight into executive bonuses and bribing campaign donating to politicians to give even more bailouts in the future, where it will never do the slightest good? What if instead, that exact same sum had been equally divided and passed out to every single American citizen, so they could afford to survive with their jobs closed down for the quarantine, where it'd be recirculated back into the economy in the form of essential purchases?

So stimulus checks and a UBI. While I support both of those, the problem is that landlords and corporations will raise prices in order to absorb the increase in the money that their tenants and consumers now have, and all of the stimulus and UBI will end up ending up enriching the already rich. Stimulus checks and a UBI require other policies to work with them for them to be effective.