Poland to withdraw from Istanbul Convention

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

The fact there's an international agreement saying domestic violence is wrong is disturbing. There are things people shouldn't need to be told lol

I mean, yeah. But conventions do exist to set general agreements on what can be considered as such, acceptable punishments worldwide, agreements for certain points, et cetera.

[Nuroblav]

The fact there's an international agreement saying domestic violence is wrong is disturbing. There are things people shouldn't need to be told lol

I think it's just to generally draw out some barriers on what does and doesn't count as being such.

[Federal Republic Of America And The Cari]

The approach being pushed on the thread sounds like "Men First, Then The Women Whenever We Get around To Them."

More so "both are important, but we've ignored and even enabled issues harming men for too long and should maybe try and, you know, fix that". But I don't know what kind of lens you view the world through, so...

This

[Federal Republic Of America And The Cari]

A good move but probably for the wrong reasons. Still, it shouldn't be surprising that the pendulum is swinging back this hard in Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia.

You’re missing the point. To downplaying of men as victims of violence in Istanbul is a feature, not a bug. Women cannot be sexist against men because men still hold the power in these countries, and therefore “sexism against men” is nonsensical.

Besides that, most violence visited on men is by other men, and so stopping it can easily be done by men as a group whenever they decide to. No extra law or effort is needed to stop it, as they are doing it to themselves.

Istanbul is a good convention, and it’s focus on women victims is the correct thing to do.

Absolutely disgusting.

I'm also not sure why you think that "most violence against men is perpetrated by other men" somehow disproves that men can be victims of domestic violence.

It's also legitimately horrible to say that because there are men in a lot of positions of power, male victims of domestic violence don't matter. But that's a supremacist movement for you, innit?

This

More so "both are important, but we've ignored and even enabled issues harming men for too long and should maybe try and, you know, fix that". But I don't know what kind of lens you view the world through, so...

This

I'm not adding anything to the table ok

[The Huskar Social Union]

Does the Istanbul treaty have its issues? Yeah. Is it bad that Poland is withdrawing from it, as well as rolling back the rights of LGBTQ people? Also yeah.

Look, it doesn’t take a genius to see that Poland’s going into a phase of extreme social conservatism. It’s not gonna be a nice place to live for anyone who isn’t a straight, white, Christian Polish man very soon.

[Galloism]

Vassenor now endorses the gender equivalent of “white lives matter”.

Oh hey, more straw on the carpet.

That’s what the convention of Istanbul endorses - that those with greater social privilege and less likely to experience violence need to experience less violence.

IE, white lives matter.

[Rusozak]

So let me get this straight. Poland withdrawing sucks and all, but they hosted a convention aimed at stopping abuse of women.... in Istanbul, Turkey? A country with a long history of abusing women?

[Christian Confederation]

So let me get this straight. Poland withdrawing sucks and all, but they hosted a convention aimed at stopping abuse of women.... in Istanbul, Turkey? A country with a long history of abusing women?

The gatling gun was made by a Doctor to end war, Us humans do wierd things

[Vassenor]

So let me get this straight. Poland withdrawing sucks and all, but they hosted a convention aimed at stopping abuse of women.... in Istanbul, Turkey? A country with a long history of abusing women?

The gatling gun was made by a Doctor to end war, Us humans do wierd things

Trying to create a weapon so terrible that no one wants to fight any more makes a certain twisted kind of sense though.

[Rojava Free State]

Right wingers in Eastern Europe: Islam is dangerous and hates women and gay people.

Also the right wingers in Eastern europe: *hate women and gay people*

[Christian Confederation]

The gatling gun was made by a Doctor to end war, Us humans do wierd things

Trying to create a weapon so terrible that no one wants to fight any more makes a certain twisted kind of sense though.

True. In a twisted way the nuke kept America and Russia from having a war

[Federal Republic Of America And The Cari]

Trying to create a weapon so terrible that no one wants to fight any more makes a certain twisted kind of sense though.

True. In a twisted way the nuke kept America and Russia from having a war

Because of M.A.D(mutually asserted destruction),the cold war didn't end in WW3 or a nuclear holocaust, because just about every country around the time feared nuclear destruction,so only proxy wars occurred. Weird huh?

[Gormwood]

Actually, LGBT is largely advanced by efforts to get equality for men - Marc Angelucci’s case against California not only guaranteed services for straight men, but also gay men and transwomen - who were previously denied due to born sex. You’re reading a lot more into my statements that is necessary.

Poland’s reasons are certainly shit, but it’s two bigoted shitty groups of people tearing each other down. That’s not a bad thing.

But I do get your meaning - the really weird alliance between feminism and really conservative Islam/Christianity in the prostitution/pornography arena also makes me go “what?” That’s an alliance certain to go south.

That being said, in this case, two groups of bigots tearing each other down should give us opportunity to raise up non bigots. I think.

How? How do you think you're going to advance an MRA-inclusive progressivism in Poland while also passively enabling a Polish government that's cementing its increasingly hegemonic power on anti-progressive policy that just so happens to also undermine feminism?

I'm sorry, but it kinda sounds like the gender politics version of leftist accelerationists who unironically think that socdems losing elections to fascists is a good thing for the left in the long run.

Undoing LGBT rights to own the feminazis.

[Galloism]

How? How do you think you're going to advance an MRA-inclusive progressivism in Poland while also passively enabling a Polish government that's cementing its increasingly hegemonic power on anti-progressive policy that just so happens to also undermine feminism?

I'm sorry, but it kinda sounds like the gender politics version of leftist accelerationists who unironically think that socdems losing elections to fascists is a good thing for the left in the long run.

Undoing LGBT rights to own the feminazis.

Was that necessary?

[Gormwood]

Undoing LGBT rights to own the feminazis.

Was that necessary?

You're one to be sanctimonious.

So it's sexist to say that domestic violence should have consequences now. Huh.

Vassenor now endorses the gender equivalent of “white lives matter”.

[Arcturus Novus]

Right wingers in Eastern Europe: Islam is dangerous and hates women and gay people.

Also the right wingers in Eastern europe: *hate women and gay people*

Yeah, but Muslims are also brown, see why that’s worse?

[Galloism]

Turns out the conservative ruling party is not in favor of dropping the treaty.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pola ... SKCN24R0GL

Given the conservative nature of the treaty’s acceptance of gender normative assumptions regarding domestic violence and violence in general, this doesn’t come as a huge shock.

It’s just the Justice Minister is more conservative than the ruling party at large.

[Galloism]

Was that necessary?

You're one to be sanctimonious.

Vassenor now endorses the gender equivalent of “white lives matter”.

Well, supporting the Istanbul convention is supporting the gendered equivalent of White Lives Matter. Much like black people receive much more violence due to race, men receive much more violence due to gender.

If Vassenor wasn’t supporting the Istanbul Convention, she certainly communicated it in such a way that confused me.

[Foxanist Revolutionary State]

This is a pretty big thing. Poland’s PiS (Law and Justice Party) started with eroding LGBTQ+ rights, and now moving onto women’s rights, ever so slowly. One can only wonder what’s next in Duda’s plans for Poland. It sounds like Duda is solidifying his sway over Poland’s voters as well.

According to the article, Hungary and Slovakia are looking into the treaty as well. This could signify a slow withdrawal of a few signatories.

’Alarm' at Poland's plan to leave treaty protecting women
54 MINUTES AGO
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
STRASBOURG, FRANCE

---

The Istanbul Convention is the world's first binding instrument to prevent and combat violence against women

The Council of Europe said Sunday, July 26, it is "alarmed" that Poland's right-wing government is moving to withdraw from a landmark international treaty combating violence against women.
Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro said on the weekend that on Monday, July 27, he will begin preparing the formal process to withdraw from the Istanbul Convention, the world's first binding instrument to prevent and combat violence against women, from marital rape to female genital mutilation.

A previous centrist Polish government signed the treaty in 2012 and it was ratified in 2015, when Ziobro called it "an invention, a feminist creation aimed at justifying gay ideology".
The treaty was spearheaded by the Council of Europe, the continent's oldest human rights organisation, and its Secretary General Marija Pejcinovic Buric condemned the right-wing Law and Justice (PiS) government's plan to withdraw.

"Leaving the Istanbul Convention would be highly regrettable and a major step backwards in the protection of women against violence in Europe," she said in a statement on Sunday.
"If there are any misconceptions or misunderstandings about the convention, we are ready to clarify them in a constructive dialogue."

Around 2,000 people marched in the Polish capital Warsaw on Friday to protest the government's withdrawal plan, some shouting "stop violence against women".

There was also outrage from several members of the European Parliament, with Iratxe Garcia Perez, the Spanish leader of the Socialist group, calling the decision "disgraceful."
"I stand with Polish citizens taking (to) the streets to demand respect for women's rights," he tweeted.

The leader of the EU parliament's Renew Europe group, former Romanian prime minister Dacian Ciolos, tweeted: "Using the fight against the Istanbul Convention as an instrument to display its conservatism is a new pitiful and pathetic move by some within the PiS government."
Fellow MEP and former Belgian premier Guy Verhofstadt said the decision was "scandalous", adding that "violence is not a traditional value."

The Council of Europe emphasised that the Istanbul Convention's "sole objective" is to combat violence against women and domestic violence.

The treaty does not explicitly mention gay marriage.

But that has not stopped the backlash to it in Hungary and Slovakia, where the parliament rejected the treaty insisting -- without proof -- that it is at odds with the country's constitutional definition of marriage as a heterosexual union.

The Strasbourg-based Council of Europe, which is separate from the European Union, has no binding powers but brings together 47 member states to make recommendations on rights and democracy. – Rappler.com

So what do you think of this move, NSG?

As someone who lives in poland, I hope poland will cease to exist as soon as possible

[Proctopeo]

This is a pretty big thing. Poland’s PiS (Law and Justice Party) started with eroding LGBTQ+ rights, and now moving onto women’s rights, ever so slowly. One can only wonder what’s next in Duda’s plans for Poland. It sounds like Duda is solidifying his sway over Poland’s voters as well.

According to the article, Hungary and Slovakia are looking into the treaty as well. This could signify a slow withdrawal of a few signatories.

’Alarm' at Poland's plan to leave treaty protecting women
54 MINUTES AGO
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
STRASBOURG, FRANCE

---

The Istanbul Convention is the world's first binding instrument to prevent and combat violence against women

The Council of Europe said Sunday, July 26, it is "alarmed" that Poland's right-wing government is moving to withdraw from a landmark international treaty combating violence against women.
Polish Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro said on the weekend that on Monday, July 27, he will begin preparing the formal process to withdraw from the Istanbul Convention, the world's first binding instrument to prevent and combat violence against women, from marital rape to female genital mutilation.

A previous centrist Polish government signed the treaty in 2012 and it was ratified in 2015, when Ziobro called it "an invention, a feminist creation aimed at justifying gay ideology".
The treaty was spearheaded by the Council of Europe, the continent's oldest human rights organisation, and its Secretary General Marija Pejcinovic Buric condemned the right-wing Law and Justice (PiS) government's plan to withdraw.

"Leaving the Istanbul Convention would be highly regrettable and a major step backwards in the protection of women against violence in Europe," she said in a statement on Sunday.
"If there are any misconceptions or misunderstandings about the convention, we are ready to clarify them in a constructive dialogue."

Around 2,000 people marched in the Polish capital Warsaw on Friday to protest the government's withdrawal plan, some shouting "stop violence against women".

There was also outrage from several members of the European Parliament, with Iratxe Garcia Perez, the Spanish leader of the Socialist group, calling the decision "disgraceful."
"I stand with Polish citizens taking (to) the streets to demand respect for women's rights," he tweeted.

The leader of the EU parliament's Renew Europe group, former Romanian prime minister Dacian Ciolos, tweeted: "Using the fight against the Istanbul Convention as an instrument to display its conservatism is a new pitiful and pathetic move by some within the PiS government."
Fellow MEP and former Belgian premier Guy Verhofstadt said the decision was "scandalous", adding that "violence is not a traditional value."

The Council of Europe emphasised that the Istanbul Convention's "sole objective" is to combat violence against women and domestic violence.

The treaty does not explicitly mention gay marriage.

But that has not stopped the backlash to it in Hungary and Slovakia, where the parliament rejected the treaty insisting -- without proof -- that it is at odds with the country's constitutional definition of marriage as a heterosexual union.

The Strasbourg-based Council of Europe, which is separate from the European Union, has no binding powers but brings together 47 member states to make recommendations on rights and democracy. – Rappler.com

So what do you think of this move, NSG?

As someone who lives in poland, I hope poland will cease to exist as soon as possible

Which foreign power do you want it to be conquered by? Germany or Russia?

[Shofercia]

This thread's epic. As for why Poland, specifically PiS withdrew, here's my hypothesis:

Article 9 – Non-governmental organisations and civil society

Parties shall recognise, encourage and support, at all levels, the work of relevant non-governmental organisations and of civil society active in combating violence against women and establish effective co-operation with these organisations.

PiS is not a fan of foreign NGOs. That article essentially requires PiS to fund and/or support foreign NGOs. Ergo PiS got pissed off and withdrew from the treaty. I now await how some might argue that by "support" the treaty doesn't really mean "support" but rather means something else. And yes, if there was the same treaty for men, PiS still would've withdrawn.

[Shofercia]

Vassenor now endorses the gender equivalent of “white lives matter”.

Oh hey, more straw on the carpet.

Gallo's characterization was actually quite accurate.

The vague definitions allow a wide-reaching and bizarre interpretation of the treaty.

For example:


The second clause is the sinister one. At no point does the treaty ever define a woman by the actual definition of a woman, which is biological sex. Gender is a social construct in the sense that society, religion, and culture set gender roles. The treaty's definition of gender is correct, and that is the danger. Every reference to the definition of woman uses "gender".

There is no such thing as "economic violence". I would bet the farm that "psychological violence" doesn't just mean gaslighting. With a particularly activist mindset, there is no limit to what this could do (e.g. using "stress" or "fear of not having enough money to feed the kid" as a grounds to murder the fetus, which is already done).

Furthermore, the treaty orders sweeping, vague, and undefined mandates on its signatories to preserve, among other things, "refugee status" and "gender identity". Prohibiting discrimination against those suffering from Gender Identity Disorder requires the indulgence of their dysphoria and resulting costumes, which means nothing can be segregated by sex. To accomodate GID, all sex-based segregation must fall and men must be allowed into women's bathrooms, and to cheat in women's sports, and vice-versa.

In today's world, we don't talk about real refugees or potential refugees like the Vietnamese after the war, or the Christians in China, or every person living in Hong Kong, the Rohingas, the Uyghurs, or the Yazidis, or any minority religion whatsoever in any Muslim country practicing Shariah Hell. The economic migrants invading Europe refuse to become European, they impose their beliefs, which are seen by civilized men as backwards and savage, on others, and they have contributed to a surge of violence, particularly against women. These people should not receive special status.

Then comes the prohibition on things "offensive to a person", the undefined definition of "dignity" and "humiliation", and more. In America, this was the Trojan horse used to fabricate homosexual marriage in breach of states' rights. Based entirely on emotion and feelings, Kennedy decided that same-sex unions must be forced because denying them such "offends their D I G N I T Y and D E G R A D E S T H E M". That is not what law is built on. No one has a right to be protected from offense. You should not criminalize simply saying mean things.

When Bill O'Reily loudly and repeatedly called that woman "hot chocolate", he was NOT committing sexual. All he was doing was being a rude, insensitive jerk, but he was lynched for it. Being too cowardly to fight, he resigned. Under this treaty, a man could be arrested for catcalling, as the treaty empowers its signatories to prosecute everything in that definition.

In short, it is a blank check for social liberalism. THAT is why Poland withdrew.

So the treaty is bad because it acknowledges the LGBT community exists. And because you don't believe in financial abuse.

That's a rather bad reading of Turtle's post.

As someone who lives in poland, I hope poland will cease to exist as soon as possible

Which foreign power do you want it to be conquered by? Germany or Russia?

Plot twist, because this time it's Slovakia! Definitely not Sweden though

[Rojava Free State]

Right wingers in Eastern Europe: Islam is dangerous and hates women and gay people.

Also the right wingers in Eastern europe: *hate women and gay people*

Yeah, but Muslims are also brown, see why that’s worse?

Lol Eastern Europeans only officially earned their white card when George Patton died and the last holder of anti Slavic racial views was gone from the world. Tell them to be humble.

[Rojava Free State]

Riders such as what?

The vague definitions allow a wide-reaching and bizarre interpretation of the treaty.

For example:

“domestic violence” shall mean all acts of physical, sexual, psychological or economic violence that occur within the family or domestic unit or between former or current spouses or partners, whether or not the perpetrator shares or has shared the same residence with the victim;

c“gender” shall mean the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for women and men;

unwanted verbal, non-verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature with the purpose or effect of violating the dignity of a person, in particular when creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment, is subject to criminal or other legal sanction.

The second clause is the sinister one. At no point does the treaty ever define a woman by the actual definition of a woman, which is biological sex. Gender is a social construct in the sense that society, religion, and culture set gender roles. The treaty's definition of gender is correct, and that is the danger. Every reference to the definition of woman uses "gender".

There is no such thing as "economic violence". I would bet the farm that "psychological violence" doesn't just mean gaslighting. With a particularly activist mindset, there is no limit to what this could do (e.g. using "stress" or "fear of not having enough money to feed the kid" as a grounds to murder the fetus, which is already done).

Furthermore, the treaty orders sweeping, vague, and undefined mandates on its signatories to preserve, among other things, "refugee status" and "gender identity". Prohibiting discrimination against those suffering from Gender Identity Disorder requires the indulgence of their dysphoria and resulting costumes, which means nothing can be segregated by sex. To accomodate GID, all sex-based segregation must fall and men must be allowed into women's bathrooms, and to cheat in women's sports, and vice-versa.

In today's world, we don't talk about real refugees or potential refugees like the Vietnamese after the war, or the Christians in China, or every person living in Hong Kong, the Rohingas, the Uyghurs, or the Yazidis, or any minority religion whatsoever in any Muslim country practicing Shariah Hell. The economic migrants invading Europe refuse to become European, they impose their beliefs, which are seen by civilized men as backwards and savage, on others, and they have contributed to a surge of violence, particularly against women. These people should not receive special status.

Then comes the prohibition on things "offensive to a person", the undefined definition of "dignity" and "humiliation", and more. In America, this was the Trojan horse used to fabricate homosexual marriage in breach of states' rights. Based entirely on emotion and feelings, Kennedy decided that same-sex unions must be forced because denying them such "offends their D I G N I T Y and D E G R A D E S T H E M". That is not what law is built on. No one has a right to be protected from offense. You should not criminalize simply saying mean things.

When Bill O'Reily loudly and repeatedly called that woman "hot chocolate", he was NOT committing sexual. All he was doing was being a rude, insensitive jerk, but he was lynched for it. Being too cowardly to fight, he resigned. Under this treaty, a man could be arrested for catcalling, as the treaty empowers its signatories to prosecute everything in that definition.

In short, it is a blank check for social liberalism. THAT is why Poland withdrew.

Economic migrants? Uncivilized? Don't wanna become European? Imposing beliefs?

I cant help but suspect you don't like middle eastern people, or Africans. It's just a suspicion.

[New haven america]

Fuck yes, I love sending the right message.

Non sexist treaties for everyone.

You’re missing the point. To downplaying of men as victims of violence in Istanbul is a feature, not a bug. Women cannot be sexist against men because men still hold the power in these countries, and therefore “sexism against men” is nonsensical.

Besides that, most violence visited on men is by other men, and so stopping it can easily be done by men as a group whenever they decide to. No extra law or effort is needed to stop it, as they are doing it to themselves.

Istanbul is a good convention, and it’s focus on women victims is the correct thing to do.

So I see you didn't take a sociology class like I recommended.

Shame, your arguments might've actually had a ground to stand on if that was the case. But I see you're simply content with going on about how x group can't be sexist because of the "Power+Prejudice" model even though that only applies to systematic abuse and not individual abuse.