NationStates

Neanderthaland wrote:I'm entirely comfortable with the thought of them rotting in a cell.

Vassenor wrote:You'd just prefer to make martyrs of them, apparently.

Picairn wrote:

Vassenor wrote:You'd just prefer to make martyrs of them, apparently.

Have you heard the heroic deeds of Bin Laden or Anders Breivik recently on the news? Me neither. /s

Gormwood wrote:Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

Picairn wrote:

Gormwood wrote:Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

Oops, my bad, should have included another criminal executed by the death penalty. But still, you don't hear Bin Laden becoming a hero now, do you?

USS Monitor wrote:There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Vetalia wrote:

Purpelia wrote:But do we want prisons to be safe? If prison is not a place of suffering than why would people want to stay away from it?

Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...

Gormwood wrote:And has terrorism stopped since Bin Laden was killed?

Purpelia wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

Vetalia wrote:
Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...

But that's because they let people out. Bad prison + allowing prisoners out = turn prison into criminal boot camp. If you just chose to leave the prisoners in forever, at least the bad ones (those that did crimes that cause damage to people or property) than they wouldn't have a chance to reoffend.

Vassenor wrote:Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

Purpelia wrote:

Vassenor wrote:Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Purpelia wrote:

Vassenor wrote:Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:

Purpelia wrote:And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Sent them to Siberia to dig potatoes for labor reform?

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Purpelia wrote:And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Once is still more than no times. Wouldn't you rather prevent the crime happening in the first place?

Purpelia wrote:

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Once is still more than no times. Wouldn't you rather prevent the crime happening in the first place?

If there was a way to magically predict crimes and imprison people before they did them sure. But there ain't. And unless someone proves retrocausality to be a thing, which actually is not impossible, there won't ever be. So we can do the next best thing and lock people like pedophiles, burglars, rapists, arsonists, thieves, murderers and their ilk away forever.

Really, the thing to understand is that criminality is not an act of committing crime but a personality defect. You, I and those like us don't commit crime. <snip>

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I thought so. No thought for the social circumstances which might make a person prone to commit crime. That would be "magic" apparently ...

Life in jail for burglary. Life in jail for non-violent thieves "and their ilk".

I've read enough of this thankyou.

Purpelia wrote:If you can't make a polite response maybe you should consider not responding at all. It's

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Purpelia wrote:If you can't make a polite response maybe you should consider not responding at all. It's

Quite right. Your opinions on criminals are draconian and judgemental, and I don't want to hear any more of them.

New haven america wrote:

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:Sent them to Siberia to dig potatoes for labor reform?

Most of Siberia doesn't grow potatoes, it's too cold.

Grains on the other hand love the place, especially millet.

Shanghai industrial complex wrote:

New haven america wrote:Most of Siberia doesn't grow potatoes, it's too cold.

Grains on the other hand love the place, especially millet.

Potatoes can be grown in Siberia, but they are mainly grown on state farms and labor camps.It belongs to a kind of Soviet humor. When it comes to digging potatoes, people will think of reform through labor.

Purpelia wrote:

USS Monitor wrote:There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

USS Monitor wrote:The circumstances vary from case to case, but even if only SOME of them are actual racism, it is still a problem.

I think there are some cases of actual racism and some false alarms. Just because you can find a case that was a false alarm does not magically erase the ones that were actual racism.

Sometimes it's difficult to judge which cases are actual racism and which are not, because all of us have our own biases. And it's not worth arguing about in the context of the death penalty because capital punishment is not a necessity in the first place. You can just abolish the death penalty and save a lot of angst. Abolishing the death penalty does not endanger public safety.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/will-federal-government-actually-execute-dylann-roof/

So basically there's been a delay in the guy's execution because it's tied up in "appeals." But if people are afraid the guy might somehow be innocent, would it be any more acceptable to throw an innocent man in prison to get raped and beaten by other criminals? Why not scrap the appeals process and tell the trial judge to get it right the first time?

I thought the point of the death penalty was to make would-be criminals who somehow don't fear prison afraid to commit their crimes. If that's the case, how "scary" is it to have another few years to face your fate, make up your mind about what you want for a last meal, etc...? If we truly want to scare people out of committing crimes, wouldn't it send a more effective message to have them executed right there and then in the courtroom immediately after they were convicted? What reason to stop short of that doesn't double as a reason not to have a death penalty at all? The whole thing is "unfalsifiable," sure; but its critics obviously don't care about that or they wouldn't be making unfalsifiable claims about what's "really" motivating its advocates.

As well, it allows people who think saving convicts' lives justifies lying to say it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to "execute" folks. Nonsense. Bullets aren't that expensive. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through appeals. You're spending hundreds of thousands of tax dollars on marginally more certainty than the certainty that is considered certainty enough to throw people in the rape house. Who are they trying to impress? If it's people who do not think unfalsifiable deterrence is enough to justify the risk of doing such things to the innocent, why do they leave prisoners to rape and beat each other for the rest of their lives, or deny convicts welfare and jobs alike when they get out so they have no choice but to steal and end up in prison again?

The whole thing just strikes me as an attempt to "split the difference" and pander to a middle ground that doesn't exist. Here's my idea of a middle ground; create jobs people can take pride in so there's less reason to resort to welfare, create easier access to welfare so there's less reason to resort to crime, then use prison more sparingly and save the death penalty for those who need to be made examples of among would-be criminals who do not fear prison.

(The irony is, I think murderers have more reason to fear prison; whether they actually do or not; than many non-murderers. Even other criminals hate murderers' guts. But conmen and the like would thrive in prison... how do you scare people out of running scams other than by threatening to execute them?)