Should the death penalty's "appeals process" be scrapped?

[Major-Tom]

Just abolish the death penalty, that way the possibility of innocent people being fried is no longer a possibility. Just a thought.

[Picairn]

I'm entirely comfortable with the thought of them rotting in a cell.

Or their cells are luxurious enough for them to continue their leisurely life while simultaneously complaining about the "loss of freedom", like Anders Breivik.

[Picairn]

You'd just prefer to make martyrs of them, apparently.

Have you heard the heroic deeds of Bin Laden or Anders Breivik recently on the news? Me neither. /s

[Gormwood]

You'd just prefer to make martyrs of them, apparently.

Have you heard the heroic deeds of Bin Laden or Anders Breivik recently on the news? Me neither. /s

Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

[Picairn]

Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

Oops, my bad, should have included another criminal executed by the death penalty. But still, you don't hear Bin Laden becoming a hero now, do you?

[Gormwood]

Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

Oops, my bad, should have included another criminal executed by the death penalty. But still, you don't hear Bin Laden becoming a hero now, do you?

And has terrorism stopped since Bin Laden was killed?

[Purpelia]

There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

But do we want prisons to be safe? If prison is not a place of suffering than why would people want to stay away from it?

Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...

But that's because they let people out. Bad prison + allowing prisoners out = turn prison into criminal boot camp. If you just chose to leave the prisoners in forever, at least the bad ones (those that did crimes that cause damage to people or property) than they wouldn't have a chance to reoffend.

[Picairn]

And has terrorism stopped since Bin Laden was killed?

No, but terrorists rally behind new, living leaders for guidance and leadership, not dead ones.

Also, it seems that terrorist incidents are steadily dropping since its peak in 2014. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_ ... by_country

[Vassenor]

There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...

But that's because they let people out. Bad prison + allowing prisoners out = turn prison into criminal boot camp. If you just chose to leave the prisoners in forever, at least the bad ones (those that did crimes that cause damage to people or property) than they wouldn't have a chance to reoffend.

Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

[Purpelia]

Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Sent them to Siberia to dig potatoes for labor reform?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Meanwhile countries where the prison system focuses on rehabilitation and the like have much lower recidivism rates.

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Once is still more than no times. Wouldn't you rather prevent the crime happening in the first place?

[New haven america]

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Sent them to Siberia to dig potatoes for labor reform?

Most of Siberia doesn't grow potatoes, it's too cold.

Grains on the other hand love the place, especially millet.

[Purpelia]

And yet they have not gotten rid of it. The only way to get rid of repeat offenders is to ensure they can only offend once. Anything else is just playing around with percentages.

Once is still more than no times. Wouldn't you rather prevent the crime happening in the first place?

If there was a way to magically predict crimes and imprison people before they did them sure. But there ain't. And unless someone proves retrocausality to be a thing, which actually is not impossible, there won't ever be. So we can do the next best thing and lock people like pedophiles, burglars, rapists, arsonists, thieves, murderers and their ilk away forever.

Really, the thing to understand is that criminality is not an act of committing crime but a personality defect. You, I and those like us don't commit crime. But why don't we? Is it because we fear the law? No, obviously. We don't live in a society of constant fear. Is it because we are good, honest people who don't want to hurt others? Don't make me laugh. Is it because we are creatures of logic and understanding and so we stop each time we might commit a serious crime and consider the options ultimately coming to the logical conclusion that what the state considers is criminal in that situation is ultimately morally correct? No. Of course not.

The reason is because to us serious, real crime is just axiomatically wrong. Why is it wrong? It just is. Yes, we can stop and think and argue and make up explanations until the sun expires. But at the end of the day it's just something we accept as true without question. Crime = wrong. And the reason we think that way is because we have been brainwashed all our lives by parents, school and society to think that way. We are like a cat that has learned to defecate in a plastic box full of sand. Trained animals. And that is fine. It is as things should be.

Serious, real criminals are people for whom for what ever reason this training didn't stick. They do not have that mental block that tells them theft, murder, rape or burglary are wrong. And short of extensive brainwashing the sort of which is frankly morally questionable you can't fix them.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Once is still more than no times. Wouldn't you rather prevent the crime happening in the first place?

If there was a way to magically predict crimes and imprison people before they did them sure. But there ain't. And unless someone proves retrocausality to be a thing, which actually is not impossible, there won't ever be. So we can do the next best thing and lock people like pedophiles, burglars, rapists, arsonists, thieves, murderers and their ilk away forever.

I thought so. No thought for the social circumstances which might make a person prone to commit crime. That would be "magic" apparently ...

Life in jail for burglary. Life in jail for non-violent thieves "and their ilk".

Really, the thing to understand is that criminality is not an act of committing crime but a personality defect. You, I and those like us don't commit crime. <snip>

I've read enough of this thankyou.

[Purpelia]

I thought so. No thought for the social circumstances which might make a person prone to commit crime. That would be "magic" apparently ...

Life in jail for burglary. Life in jail for non-violent thieves "and their ilk".

The social circumstances are what make the training fail. Trust in the system and a society that actually deserves trust are essential to training humans. Just as with training animals. Again, this is not something you are born with. It's training. And of course failed training is in part the fault of the trainer and school. And in a perfect world we'd have a system where nobody is placed in the circumstances which lead to the training failing. But we don't.

Some times people simply fall through the cracks. The training does not stick. And while it's a shame the only thing we can do is protect the rest of society from them.

I've read enough of this thankyou.

If you can't make a polite response maybe you should consider not responding at all. It's

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If you can't make a polite response maybe you should consider not responding at all. It's

Quite right. Your opinions on criminals are draconian and judgemental, and I don't want to hear any more of them.

[Purpelia]

If you can't make a polite response maybe you should consider not responding at all. It's

Quite right. Your opinions on criminals are draconian and judgemental, and I don't want to hear any more of them.

Than feel free to ignore them instead of making a point of engaging me.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Sent them to Siberia to dig potatoes for labor reform?

Most of Siberia doesn't grow potatoes, it's too cold.

Grains on the other hand love the place, especially millet.

Potatoes can be grown in Siberia, but they are mainly grown on state farms and labor camps.It belongs to a kind of Soviet humor. When it comes to digging potatoes, people will think of reform through labor.

[Mirjt]

We should not have the death penalty at all.

By the way I also include lifetime incarceration as a form of the death penalty: death by incarceration.

[New haven america]

Most of Siberia doesn't grow potatoes, it's too cold.

Grains on the other hand love the place, especially millet.

Potatoes can be grown in Siberia, but they are mainly grown on state farms and labor camps.It belongs to a kind of Soviet humor. When it comes to digging potatoes, people will think of reform through labor.

Yes I'm aware, which is why I put the specifier "Most" in that sentence.

[New haven america]

I vote all crimes be worthy of the death penalty.

[USS Monitor]

There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

The circumstances vary from case to case, but even if only SOME of them are actual racism, it is still a problem.

I think there are some cases of actual racism and some false alarms. Just because you can find a case that was a false alarm does not magically erase the ones that were actual racism.

Sometimes it's difficult to judge which cases are actual racism and which are not, because all of us have our own biases. And it's not worth arguing about in the context of the death penalty because capital punishment is not a necessity in the first place. You can just abolish the death penalty and save a lot of angst. Abolishing the death penalty does not endanger public safety.

[Purpelia]

The circumstances vary from case to case, but even if only SOME of them are actual racism, it is still a problem.

I think there are some cases of actual racism and some false alarms. Just because you can find a case that was a false alarm does not magically erase the ones that were actual racism.

Sometimes it's difficult to judge which cases are actual racism and which are not, because all of us have our own biases. And it's not worth arguing about in the context of the death penalty because capital punishment is not a necessity in the first place. You can just abolish the death penalty and save a lot of angst. Abolishing the death penalty does not endanger public safety.

I absolutely agree with you there. I just don't think that we can look at the newer ending cries of racism and automatically conclude they are all correct and represent viable data and wanted to point that out because I know its easy for people these days to get carried away into extremes.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/will-federal-government-actually-execute-dylann-roof/

So basically there's been a delay in the guy's execution because it's tied up in "appeals." But if people are afraid the guy might somehow be innocent, would it be any more acceptable to throw an innocent man in prison to get raped and beaten by other criminals? Why not scrap the appeals process and tell the trial judge to get it right the first time?

I thought the point of the death penalty was to make would-be criminals who somehow don't fear prison afraid to commit their crimes. If that's the case, how "scary" is it to have another few years to face your fate, make up your mind about what you want for a last meal, etc...? If we truly want to scare people out of committing crimes, wouldn't it send a more effective message to have them executed right there and then in the courtroom immediately after they were convicted? What reason to stop short of that doesn't double as a reason not to have a death penalty at all? The whole thing is "unfalsifiable," sure; but its critics obviously don't care about that or they wouldn't be making unfalsifiable claims about what's "really" motivating its advocates.

As well, it allows people who think saving convicts' lives justifies lying to say it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to "execute" folks. Nonsense. Bullets aren't that expensive. It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to go through appeals. You're spending hundreds of thousands of tax dollars on marginally more certainty than the certainty that is considered certainty enough to throw people in the rape house. Who are they trying to impress? If it's people who do not think unfalsifiable deterrence is enough to justify the risk of doing such things to the innocent, why do they leave prisoners to rape and beat each other for the rest of their lives, or deny convicts welfare and jobs alike when they get out so they have no choice but to steal and end up in prison again?

The whole thing just strikes me as an attempt to "split the difference" and pander to a middle ground that doesn't exist. Here's my idea of a middle ground; create jobs people can take pride in so there's less reason to resort to welfare, create easier access to welfare so there's less reason to resort to crime, then use prison more sparingly and save the death penalty for those who need to be made examples of among would-be criminals who do not fear prison.

(The irony is, I think murderers have more reason to fear prison; whether they actually do or not; than many non-murderers. Even other criminals hate murderers' guts. But conmen and the like would thrive in prison... how do you scare people out of running scams other than by threatening to execute them?)

Are murderers hated in prison?
I know paedophiles are hated in most countries prison systems and sex offenders in general are hated in the British prison system.
Also do you have proof most prisoners get raped?
Also the difference is the death penalty is irreversible.
That's why it needs automatic appeals that life without parole doesn't have.