Should the death penalty's "appeals process" be scrapped?

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

The point of the death penalty is not deterrence. The point of the death penalty is to show societies absolute abhorrence of the crime committed. It is the ultimate sanction society can impose.

So as to the appeals process being stopped? I dont think it should automatic, but if the defendant wants to appeal, he should be allowed too

about your first point.
I agree to an extent,
That's why I lean towards supporting the death penalty for rapists, people who produce child pornography, child killers, sexually motivated killers and traitors.

[The Two Jerseys]

There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

But the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is totally trying to kill Mumia Abu-Jamal just because he's black, not because he shot Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner in the back like a coward and then fatally shot the wounded Officer Faulkner in the face as he laid on the ground!

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Do you honestly believe all those cases are actual racism as opposed to just being the family of someone condemned to die doing everything and anything in their power to try and claw him out of it?

But the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is totally trying to kill Mumia Abu-Jamal just because he's black, not because he shot Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner in the back like a coward and then fatally shot the wounded Officer Faulkner in the face as he laid on the ground!

Any proof he did that?

[Ifreann]

Prison is bad, therefore the state should have far greater power to kill people it doesn't like. Strange, strange reasoning.

Does make sense for certain crimes. Prison rapists, for example - putting them to death would improve the conditions for other prisoners and make prisons more safe.

Maybe explore options for making prisons safer that don't involve killing anyone.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Prison is bad, therefore the state should have far greater power to kill people it doesn't like. Strange, strange reasoning.

Does make sense for certain crimes. Prison rapists, for example - putting them to death would improve the conditions for other prisoners and make prisons more safe.

True.

[Vistulange]

Breivik is practically doing life so that's not a slam dunk in your favor that you assume it is.

Oops, my bad, should have included another criminal executed by the death penalty. But still, you don't hear Bin Laden becoming a hero now, do you?

Bin Laden wasn't tried and found guilty in a court of law, not even in absentia; he was killed in combat as an enemy combatant. Not sure what the equivalency is, here. Moreover, Bin Laden isn't a hero to you or me, yet we are not the target demographic for the propaganda seeking to portray Bin Laden as a heroic martyr.

[Page]

The point of the death penalty is not deterrence. The point of the death penalty is to show societies absolute abhorrence of the crime committed. It is the ultimate sanction society can impose.

It's funny, that's basically saying that capital punishment is virtue signaling. We're so outraged at this criminal that we have no choice but to kill him so everyone knows how good we are.

[Estanglia]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/01/will-federal-government-actually-execute-dylann-roof/

So basically there's been a delay in the guy's execution because it's tied up in "appeals." But if people are afraid the guy might somehow be innocent, would it be any more acceptable to throw an innocent man in prison to get raped and beaten by other criminals? Why not scrap the appeals process and tell the trial judge to get it right the first time?

Because judges are human beings, and human beings are perfectly capable of making the wrong decision. It's also perfectly possible for evidence to appear post-conviction that shows that the convicted were, in fact, innocent.

Removing the ability for appeals is telling judges that they absolutely have to be right or there is nothing that can be done to correct the wrong decision. I do not have enough faith in people for them to be 100% correct, which is the bare minimum I'd want if a death sentence is unappealable.

If anything should be scrapped, it should be the death penalty itself. The state should not have the power to kill someone who is not an immediate threat to an innocent person, and I find life imprisonment to be a harsher punishment anyway.

[The Two Jerseys]

But the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is totally trying to kill Mumia Abu-Jamal just because he's black, not because he shot Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner in the back like a coward and then fatally shot the wounded Officer Faulkner in the face as he laid on the ground!

Any proof he did that?

Four eyewitnesses, ballistics, and a round from Officer Faulkner's sidearm in his gut.

[Katganistan]

You see, there's this thing called due process. It tries to minimize the risk of executing an innocent, or hell, even in countries where there is no capital punishment, the conviction of innocents based upon fabricated evidence, mishandled evidence, police tampering with evidence, poorly handled trials (by the judge or the jury, where such exists), and so many things that can go wrong with a criminal (or civil, really) trial.

Would you prefer they get raped by their cellmate, beaten by the guards, let out into a society where no one wants to hire them, be denied welfare so they've no option but to steal again, end up in prison again, and have the whole cycle repeat itself for the rest of their lives?

False dichotomy.

[Fartsniffage]

One change that I think might actually be possible to make the process safer is that if a DA is going for the death penalty then the accused gets legal representation.

And I don't mean some over worked peon from the public defenders office. The state should be paying for a full on legal team from the best criminal law firm in the area.

[Katganistan]

One change that I think might actually be possible to make the process safer is that if a DA is going for the death penalty then the accused gets legal representation.

And I don't mean some over worked peon from the public defenders office. The state should be paying for a full on legal team from the best criminal law firm in the area.

When Congress refuses to even make sure people have healthcare, you actually think they're going to do more than the public defenders?

[Vistulange]

You see, there's this thing called due process. It tries to minimize the risk of executing an innocent, or hell, even in countries where there is no capital punishment, the conviction of innocents based upon fabricated evidence, mishandled evidence, police tampering with evidence, poorly handled trials (by the judge or the jury, where such exists), and so many things that can go wrong with a criminal (or civil, really) trial.

Would you prefer they get raped by their cellmate, beaten by the guards, let out into a society where no one wants to hire them, be denied welfare so they've no option but to steal again, end up in prison again, and have the whole cycle repeat itself for the rest of their lives?

False dichotomy aside...

It's almost as if there's something gravely wrong with the US penal, justice, and social system; one that has nothing to do with the fact that a practice as barbaric as capital punishment exists in the US.

[The New California Republic]

One change that I think might actually be possible to make the process safer is that if a DA is going for the death penalty then the accused gets legal representation.

And I don't mean some over worked peon from the public defenders office. The state should be paying for a full on legal team from the best criminal law firm in the area.

Or just stop the entire problem by SCOTUS deeming the death penalty unconstitutional. Even though that won't happen soon. Need a rerun of Furman v. Georgia, but one that the various states can't eventually squirm out of.

[Auristania]

There ought to be SENSIBLE appeals procedure, but ONLY when there are actual grounds for appeal EG evidence that they did not do it.

The US appeals process consists of "I am SJW, I disapprove of capital Punishment." When that fails, then there is automatically a second appeal "I am SJW, I really disapprove of capital Punishment." a third appeal, "I am SJW, I really, really disapprove of capital Punishment." etc etc etc.

Allow appeals if and only if there are grounds.

[The New California Republic]

There ought to be SENSIBLE appeals procedure, but ONLY when there are actual grounds for appeal EG evidence that they did not do it.

The US appeals process consists of "I am SJW, I disapprove of capital Punishment." When that fails, then there is automatically a second appeal "I am SJW, I really disapprove of capital Punishment." a third appeal, "I am SJW, I really, really disapprove of capital Punishment." etc etc etc.

Allow appeals if and only if there are grounds.

When the state is trying to take a person's life, the person should always have the option for appeals, or to ask for clemency, regardless of there being no evidence that they didn't do it. Such evidence can materialise in the course of the appeal itself. Even using it just as a delaying tactic is absolutely fine, as it gives more time for said evidence to come to light, or for clemency to be granted.

[Luziyca]

Only if it is absolutely 100% clear without any doubt whatsoever that the condemned is actually guilty.

Given such technology doesn't exist yet, and given the unfortunate history of innocents being executed, whether due to false confessions, jury/judge tampering to get the outcome they want, etc, etc, it should not be scrapped if there is any doubt whatsoever that the condemned did the crime in question.

[US-SSR]

The death penalty should be scrapped. Problem solved. List of nations still carrying out judicial murder:

Bangladesh
China
Egypt
Ethiopia
India
Indonesia
Iran
Japan
Nigeria
Saudi Arabia
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Taiwan
The United States

[Katganistan]

There ought to be SENSIBLE appeals procedure, but ONLY when there are actual grounds for appeal EG evidence that they did not do it.

The US appeals process consists of "I am SJW, I disapprove of capital Punishment." When that fails, then there is automatically a second appeal "I am SJW, I really disapprove of capital Punishment." a third appeal, "I am SJW, I really, really disapprove of capital Punishment." etc etc etc.

Allow appeals if and only if there are grounds.

Absolutely not true. Appeals are on the basis of procedural errors.

[Neanderthaland]

I'm entirely comfortable with the thought of them rotting in a cell.

Or their cells are luxurious enough for them to continue their leisurely life while simultaneously complaining about the "loss of freedom", like Anders Breivik.

Indeed, the US Prison system is famous for it's luxury.

[Thermodolia]

How about we scrap the death penalty?

[Atheris]

The death penalty should be scrapped. Problem solved. List of nations still carrying out judicial murder:

Bangladesh
China
Egypt
Ethiopia
India
Indonesia
Iran
Japan
Nigeria
Saudi Arabia
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Taiwan
The United States

Your point is... what, exactly?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

The death penalty should be scrapped. Problem solved. List of nations still carrying out judicial murder:

Bangladesh
China
Egypt
Ethiopia
India
Indonesia
Iran
Japan
Nigeria
Saudi Arabia
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Taiwan
The United States

Your point is... what, exactly?

Most of those countries are tyrannical shit-holes.
Therefore the US is probably a tyrannical shit-hole.

[Picairn]

Most of those countries are tyrannical shit-holes.
Therefore the US is probably a tyrannical shit-hole.

Quite a leap of conclusion there. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan are developed countries. India, Indonesia, Nigeria are developing well, so definitely not shit holes. The only nations to qualify for "tyrannical shitholes" are, IMO, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. China is tyrannical, but definitely not a shit hole.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Most of those countries are tyrannical shit-holes.
Therefore the US is probably a tyrannical shit-hole.

Quite a leap of conclusion there. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan are developed countries. India, Indonesia, Nigeria are developing well, so definitely not shit holes. The only nations to qualify for "tyrannical shitholes" are, IMO, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. China is tyrannical, but definitely not a shit hole.

China is a shithole from a human rights perspective. Quality of life or GDP per capita are irrelevant to this topic.

Japan, SK and Taiwan are the only ones you should want to be in the same list as. You have to apply some heavy bias to make India, Indonesia or Nigeria exemplars of human rights.

Let's move on to the list of countries according to how much the death penalty is actually used, shall we?