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Should the death penalty's "appeals process" be scrapped?

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:15 am

Picairn wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You can prevent all executions of innocent people if you abolish the death penalty. *nods*

I don't find the thought of terrorists and serial killers living long lives very comforting.

I have every confidence that you can live with your discomfort, safe in the knowledge that innocent lives are protected from wrongful execution.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:11 pm

Picairn wrote:
Ifreann wrote:You can prevent all executions of innocent people if you abolish the death penalty. *nods*

I don't find the thought of terrorists and serial killers living long lives very comforting.

I'm entirely comfortable with the thought of them rotting in a cell.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:33 pm

This is a terrible idea.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:04 pm

Honestly I think you should just restrict executions to those criminals for whom there is no doubt that they are guilty. Like if you caught a mass shooter in the act or something. Than you can safely know you're killing the right guy and just do it.
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Crockerland
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Postby Crockerland » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:31 pm

Ifreann wrote:Prison is bad, therefore the state should have far greater power to kill people it doesn't like. Strange, strange reasoning.

Does make sense for certain crimes. Prison rapists, for example - putting them to death would improve the conditions for other prisoners and make prisons more safe.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:36 pm

No. The death penalty should be scrapped.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:54 pm

Crockerland wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Prison is bad, therefore the state should have far greater power to kill people it doesn't like. Strange, strange reasoning.

Does make sense for certain crimes. Prison rapists, for example - putting them to death would improve the conditions for other prisoners and make prisons more safe.

But do we want prisons to be safe? If prison is not a place of suffering than why would people want to stay away from it?
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:01 pm

There are already too many questionable executions, even with the appeals process. Dylann Roof is a scumbag, but this isn't just about him. The same rules will be used in lots of other cases too.

I'd rather just abolish the death penalty, or use it more rarely. I get tired of reading stories about some black guy getting executed while activists from the black community complain that he was mentally incompetent or they're not satisfied that he got a fair trial or whatever. We don't actually NEED to execute people. We can keep the public safe using life without parole for the most dangerous criminals. In Southern states that have large black populations and a lot of capital punishment, controversial executions and complaints of racial bias are way too common. When I see Joe Black Guy and Jenny Black Mama upset because they think their friend/relative/neighbor/whatever is being executed due to racial bias, I feel bad for them.

In a post-racial society with fewer divisions and inequalities, maybe the death penalty would be OK, but in our current reality, I think it is not worth it. Like I said, we don't actually NEED to execute people.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:21 pm

If there's any punishment where you want to make absolutely sure you've got the right guy, it's this one.

So no.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:If there's any punishment where you want to make absolutely sure you've got the right guy, it's this one.

So no.

Functionally, this is the type of argument that we should pause and consider whether we should do the death penalty at all, barring the case where a person is literally too dangerous to be kept alive in any location.

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I’m not necessarily against the notion that some are deserving of death. But I question our ability to deal it out fairly and without error. We know black people and men (and, unsurprisingly, especially black men) have gotten the death penalty far far more often, which undercuts the notion of fairness.

Meanwhile, we have literally exonerated people days before execution or uncovered exculpatory evidence after death, which undercuts the notion of being without error.
Last edited by Galloism on Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:10 pm

Galloism wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:If there's any punishment where you want to make absolutely sure you've got the right guy, it's this one.

So no.

Functionally, this is the type of argument that we should pause and consider whether we should do the death penalty at all, barring the case where a person is literally too dangerous to be kept alive in any location.

Image

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I’m not necessarily against the notion that some are deserving of death. But I question our ability to deal it out fairly and without error. We know black people and men (and, unsurprisingly, especially black men) have gotten the death penalty far far more often, which undercuts the notion of fairness.

Meanwhile, we have literally exonerated people days before execution or uncovered exculpatory evidence after death, which undercuts the notion of being without error.

Pretty much this.

I mean, if we lived in the Batman universe, where locking up criminals works for -at most- ten minutes before they're out committing crimes again, then the death penalty might have more justification. But in the real world there's very few cases where it is actually necessary.

And it's not like American prisons are such a wonderful place that they're "getting off easy" if they have to spend the rest of their lives in one.
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:12 pm

no, to think as much is completely absurd. the death penalty in itself is not necessarily workable in reality (though i wish it were), even less so if performed immediately.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:14 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Galloism wrote:Functionally, this is the type of argument that we should pause and consider whether we should do the death penalty at all, barring the case where a person is literally too dangerous to be kept alive in any location.

Image

Hush Mace windu. I’m tired of these motherfuckin Jedi in this motherfuckin office.

I’m not necessarily against the notion that some are deserving of death. But I question our ability to deal it out fairly and without error. We know black people and men (and, unsurprisingly, especially black men) have gotten the death penalty far far more often, which undercuts the notion of fairness.

Meanwhile, we have literally exonerated people days before execution or uncovered exculpatory evidence after death, which undercuts the notion of being without error.

Pretty much this.

I mean, if we lived in the Batman universe, where locking up criminals works for -at most- ten minutes before they're out committing crimes again, then the death penalty might have more justification. But in the real world there's very few cases where it is actually necessary.

And it's not like American prisons are such a wonderful place that they're "getting off easy" if they have to spend the rest of their lives in one.

I would generally allow life without parole prisoners choose death if they preferred.

If I was a lifer in Colorado Supermax, I’d choose death most likely.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:18 pm

Galloism wrote:
Neanderthaland wrote:Pretty much this.

I mean, if we lived in the Batman universe, where locking up criminals works for -at most- ten minutes before they're out committing crimes again, then the death penalty might have more justification. But in the real world there's very few cases where it is actually necessary.

And it's not like American prisons are such a wonderful place that they're "getting off easy" if they have to spend the rest of their lives in one.

I would generally allow life without parole prisoners choose death if they preferred.

If I was a lifer in Colorado Supermax, I’d choose death most likely.

I don't disagree.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:26 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote: Why not scrap the appeals process and tell the trial judge to get it right the first time?


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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:03 pm

the death penalty should be scrapped
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Postby Vetalia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:27 pm

Purpelia wrote:But do we want prisons to be safe? If prison is not a place of suffering than why would people want to stay away from it?


Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:34 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:But do we want prisons to be safe? If prison is not a place of suffering than why would people want to stay away from it?


Pretty sure being locked in a cell with limited amenities and virtually all of your freedoms taken away, to say nothing of the long-term consequences even if you get out, is more than enough of a deterrent. In fact, the countries with the worst prisons in the world also have the highest crime rates...

After all, look at all the people throwing a bitchfit and getting ready to revolt over Stay At Home orders.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:54 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Picairn wrote:I don't find the thought of terrorists and serial killers living long lives very comforting.


You'd just prefer to make martyrs of them, apparently.

Amazing how most of the terrorist groups promptly forgot about Bin Ladin after he got "Martyred".

Yes for a short time they will be famous for dying, but after they're dead, they're dead.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:59 pm

People are literally up in arms over Stay At Home orders, and I'm supposed to believe that a life sentence is going to be a cushy gig?
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:49 pm

Page wrote:The death penalty shouldn't exist and prisoners shouldn't be at risk of bodily harm. It works just fine for Norway.

Yes, even a killer who killed 77 peoplecan can go vacationing in prison.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:50 pm

The death penalty should be scrapped. It is more expensive than life in prison, completely ineffective as a deterrent, and there are a high number of people executed who are subsequently found innocent.

If individual countries insist on keeping it, suspects deserve the right to a full, repeated and fair appeals process, where evidence will be heard in open court. Otherwise, the death penalty could be used as a tool of terror against innocent parties.

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Thepeopl wrote:Death is a release from imprisonment. It is the ultimate freedom. The prisoner will never have to obey anything anymore.
The worst punishment there is, is taking away someone's
freedom, the ability to make decisions for themselves.

Nah, Mason was able to get laid, cut an album, write a book, get married. Lotta free Choices there.

Now, I agree that that was allowing too much freedom after the heinous acts he did and brainwashed others into doing.

Where the death penalty is practised, it is so liberally applied, though. My abhorrence of it would be lessened if it was used against only the most vile of crimes and where there was no doubt the person did it.
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:56 pm

The Free Joy State wrote:The death penalty should be scrapped. It is more expensive than life in prison, completely ineffective as a deterrent, and there are a high number of people executed who are subsequently found innocent.

If individual countries insist on keeping it, suspects deserve the right to a fair appeals process, where evidence will be heard in open court. Otherwise, the death penalty could be used as a tool of terror against innocent parties.


To play devil's advocate for a moment, the appeals process is a large part of why DP is so expensive. And the appeals process may make DP less effective as a deterrent (by delaying executions).

That second point is a "maybe". The DP may be ineffective as a deterrent anyway. It's the wrongful executions that stand most strongly against the death penalty, imo. Also the State setting an example which citizens can too easily follow: if someone is an intractable problem for the state or individual ... bump them off.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:The death penalty should be scrapped. It is more expensive than life in prison, completely ineffective as a deterrent, and there are a high number of people executed who are subsequently found innocent.

If individual countries insist on keeping it, suspects deserve the right to a fair appeals process, where evidence will be heard in open court. Otherwise, the death penalty could be used as a tool of terror against innocent parties.


To play devil's advocate for a moment, the appeals process is a large part of why DP is so expensive. And the appeals process may make DP less effective as a deterrent (by delaying executions).

I am aware the death penalty is, partly, expensive because of the appeals. Though, that's not a good enough argument for getting rid of the appeals process (unless someone has a strong dislike for basic human rights, like the right to a fair trial). And I'm not sure that the appeals process is responsible for making it not a deterrent. The number falsely executed still shows that the appeals process fails a significant number of times.

That second point is a "maybe". The DP may be ineffective as a deterrent anyway. It's the wrongful executions that stand most strongly against the death penalty, imo. Also the State setting an example which citizens can too easily follow: if someone is an intractable problem for the state or individual ... bump them off.

Read my reply to Ethel. I was editing it in as you were replying.

Clarifying that I do personally oppose the death penalty (for moral and practical reasons), there are some crimes of an especially horrific nature that I still feel could warrant it (although I don't feel national governments should have the power to apply it).
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:17 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Xmara
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Postby Xmara » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 pm

Appeals are really important. The criminal justice system isn't perfect. The appeals process is one last time for them to get it right.

As for the death penalty, I think it should only be used if the crime was especially horrific, and if there is absolutely no doubt that the suspect is guilty of said crime.
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