Four Countries Conduct Naval Exercise against China

[Thermodolia]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

China actively claims parts of India, Vietnam, all of the South China Sea, Taiwan, and other places as belonging to China. They have a neo-colonial Empire running amok in Africa.

The US has given up a lot of former territories and really most of the US presence is uninhabited islands. If you really want to complain about National presence in the west Pacific then you should be going after France, the largest offender in that regard

[Region of Dwipantara]

Indonesia as well, hopefully there can be a common movement of the people to vote PRC stooges out of office. I do not expect it to happen soon, but still it is a goal to work for.

Problem is, these "pro-PRC stooges" are coincidentally a really strong bumper against Islamism and as of now represents the best hope for the continuation of both the somewhat illiberal democratic system and development, which is why I (ironically) supports them for now. Interestingly, their Islamist opposition was actually led by a man called Prabowo Subianto: a wine-drinking, secular, pro-US ex-general, son-in-law of the late neoliberal kleptocratic dictator Suharto, and criminal against humanity allegedly responsible for the forced dissapearances of many student activists during the 1998 revolution.

But then again, Prabowo immediately joined the ruling coalition as Defense Minister after losing the 2019 elections, and IMO is very likely to purge his Islamist backers if he ever came into office anyways. Meanwhile, the role of opposition leader is now largely taken by Jakarta Governor Anies Baswedan, a politician who came to power through a very racist, very sectarian campaign and mass politicization of Islam unseen since 1955, where in both instances, voting for the wrong guy can get you declared an apostate ought to be shunned by society. His records also show his being far far more likely to submit to Islamism if he became the next president in 2024.

That's just one country. Things like this gave me headaches on who to support.

[-Astoria-]

To some liberals and leftists, it's always unneccessary "aggression" when the west does it.

*cough* Such as?

[Thermodolia]

To some liberals and leftists, it's always unneccessary "aggression" when the west does it.

*cough* Such as?

I think he’s talking about the Hypocrites hypocrites who complain about the US and co doing literally anything yet turn a blind eye to China’s neo-colonialism in Africa

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEEeNYXUTvY

You were saying?

Not watching a 15 minute lecture.

What else do you listen to while washing dishes/doing laundry/etc... that is more meaningful than commentary on China from a guy who has, verifiably, been there himself?

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Good summary, unfortunately SEA showing some united thought and agreement is not going to happen soon, the Chinese Economy is just too dominant and its investment cash flows too lucrative.
It would be awesome if SEA could form an effective bloc to hold the Sea of Champa though

Obviously, the solution is to counter it with a similarly lucrative investment flow. And combine it with a strong, trustworthy, good-faith framework to back it up, as opposed to China's predatory(ish) lending method—something the West+ excells at. After all, there is no god but the Almighty Dollar.

I’m not exactly sure of the Philippines. While the population is very much in favour of action against China, I’m not sure if Duterte or any of his associates and chums are willing to do that, even with monetary incentive. Duterte has come out as rather vocally anti-US, and has been fixing relations with China much to the dismay of the public. I do hope that his party members go against continuing the repair of relations with China and turn towards the US, but seeing how they voted against the population’s opinion concerning ABS-CBN, I’m not so sure.

As for the exercise, I’m happy that it happened. China needs to be shown that they can’t touch territorial claims without consequence.

As for the dispute amongst the 4 ASEAN members+China and Taiwan, all parties but China could resolve it at a conference.

[Novus America]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

Destroy as in destroy our power and reduce us to PRC vassals, not necessarily kill us all. And remember once the build up their economy enough they will need us less. The PRC government is extremely hostile to the West and its values and wants western values gone.

“According to Jiang in a 2019 article, Western civilisation has created a world empire (世界帝国) encompassing every major power in the world, including China, and based on liberal principles. This empire is currently in terminal decline due to economic inequality, decaying government structures, and the spread of nihilism triggered by cultural liberalism. Jiang concludes that it is China's responsibility, alongside other nations, to construct a blueprint for the second world empire: the reconstruction of Chinese civilisation and the world order are mutually reinforcing.”

"The crucial questions in politics are not questions of right and wrong, but of obedience and disobedience. If you do not submit to political authority, then 'If I say you're wrong, you're wrong, even if you're right.'"[12] Echoing Schmitt's theory of the friend–enemy distinction, he added, "Between friends and enemies, there is no question of freedom, only violence and subjugation. This is the reality of politics, a reality that liberals often do not dare to face."”

They openly want to give us with (in their own words) “only violence and subjugation”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong

Whataboutism is not an argument.
And no, how is US presence in the Western Pacific imperialism? Being a place =/= imperialism.
Annexing places against they will of the people is. What parts of the West Pacific is the US threatening to annex by force?

[Novus America]

This has nothing to do with COVID. This has been in the works since the Obama Administration and will continue if Biden wins in November.

The trade war, parts of the Trans Pacific Trade Agreement and other things are all designed to halt Chinese aggression. To that end we should extend the welcome to Taiwan, Vietnam, Myanmar, The Philippines, and Thailand. We should focus on building an Asian NATO and eventually an anti-Chinese economic bloc.

China can’t survive without exporting, its entire economy relies on it. If we create an economic bloc that halts most trade to China they will collapse from within without any need to shed blood

I'm not very interested in your agenda of "making China collapse" because I expect it would take a decade or more and in the meantime the US is just going to use my country as a base, and my country will be stuck on the same side as the US. In a second Cold War.

Your fantasy coalition is less attractive to me than continuing peaceful trade with China, as with any other nation, regardless of their internal affairs.

The South China Sea thing, I agree with. I'm prepared to go along with the US on that. But all this "China cheats at trade" because you can't admit that your own capitalists betrayed you and China plays a smarter game in trade than you do, it's just pathetic.

The PRC does not want peaceful trade. They openly called you gum on their shoe for daring to say something they disagree with. In their own words everything is violence and subjugation.
The goal of their trade is subjugation.

And you cannot separate the two. Trade and things like the South China Sea cannot be separated.
If you make them the bigger economically, give them more economic control, they can conquer the SCS with no opposition.

Trade is power. Money is power. You cannot separate the two. The more you trade with them, the more money you give them, the more power they have over you.

And actually they do legitimate cheat, their entire economic model revolves around state subsidized dumping, but sure our capitalists betrayed us too (just as yours did).
Sometimes there is more than one guilty party.

And a New Cold War (or continuation of the last) cannot be avoided. Hiding your head in the sand changes nothing. The values and goals of the west and PRC cannot be reconciled.

And this is obviously not fantasy as it is already beginning to happen. All those who are on the PRC’s hit list should naturally stand together. Otherwise they pick us off individually.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Just don’t start World War 3 or you’ll win thermonuclear prizes.

We need to bring other nations into the fold like Vietnam to help counter the Chinese threat

Vietnam isn’t exactly a military or economic powerhouse, they’d definitely be useful, but we should be looking more toward Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia foremost.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Just don’t start World War 3 or you’ll win thermonuclear prizes.

We need to bring other nations into the fold like Vietnam to help counter the Chinese threat

Vietnam isn’t exactly a military or economic powerhouse, they’d definitely be useful, but we should be looking more toward Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia foremost.

At this point are there any countries that haven't been screwed over by China? The few countries that haven't been as affected by coronavirus are literally the same countries China's been trying to screw over for years now.

[La Xinga]

Good. I propose we throw NATO and the EU into this, plus ASEAN, and also try to get SK to work with Japan. (I know, good luck)

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Good. Hong Kong WILL be avenged. The CCP had better be shitting their pants because we're coming for them and they're gonna PAY for all the bullshit they've put us through.

[Atheris]

Good.

[Picairn]

Good, but the US needs to do more decisive actions than just a mere naval exercise.

[Sarderia]

Jai Hind!

Definitely a good thing. We need to strengthen the Quad in particular.

India, Japan, Australia and the US together are unstoppable. India’s population, Japanese technology, Australian natural resources and American military might together are a force the PRC cannot hope to match. We need to create a more formal treaty structure, more regular exercises, and also a economic component so that we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

Also beyond the quad a larger southeast Asian security structure including Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines.

After all we are all at risk. If we let the PRC salami slice and pick us off one at a time we are at high risk. So we must stand together or hang separately.

At least for now, Indonesia lacks the capability to effectively and fully police its own waters, as its past military doctrine prioritizes the army over the navy. It is thus not too hard for foreign powers to try sow dangerous sentiments especially in the outer isles. So right now, Indonesia's foreign policy is to prevent that by being friendly to all sides ("1000 friends is too few, 1 enemy is too many"). Until that's covered, I don't think we can really do anything too openly.

The current government also shows a clear preference to Chinese investment, though 1) the current ruling coalition now include a pro-US faction and 2) afaik we're also trying to diversify, so it might not be too late.

Phillipines from what I heard is a lost cause for now. Cambodia is basically a satellite state reliant oj Beijing for its economy. Other than that, Vietnam and Malaysia (especially with Najib gone, though I admittedly know very little about the current PM's objectives) are a very promising potential allies. Taiwan is a tinderbox that can result in a massive Chinese retaliation, so the US must be very careful.

Tbh, the only way SEA states can actually protect its territorial integrity is if we agree first on our own disputes in the North Natuna Sea (yeah I'm not going to use the "SCS" name). Each must make reciprocal concessions, all significant disputes must be cleared, then we can finally unite as a bloc with clear objectives to challenge Chinese aggressions. Cambodia (and possibly Laos) will obviously try to hijack such mutual agreement though (as it directly runs against their pro-China economic interests), so that must also be tackled first.

Indonesia needs to remove that one particular government official, that has been "spreading his wings" behind the Government, appearing everywhere from the government COVID response management team to petty matters like fishing. The President wanted to do a cabinet reshuffle soon. Let's hope that particular official would be removed from office, and then can Indonesia truly assert its sovereignity.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

Destroy as in destroy our power and reduce us to PRC vassals, not necessarily kill us all. And remember once the build up their economy enough they will need us less. The PRC government is extremely hostile to the West and its values and wants western values gone.

“According to Jiang in a 2019 article, Western civilisation has created a world empire (世界帝国) encompassing every major power in the world, including China, and based on liberal principles. This empire is currently in terminal decline due to economic inequality, decaying government structures, and the spread of nihilism triggered by cultural liberalism. Jiang concludes that it is China's responsibility, alongside other nations, to construct a blueprint for the second world empire: the reconstruction of Chinese civilisation and the world order are mutually reinforcing.”

"The crucial questions in politics are not questions of right and wrong, but of obedience and disobedience. If you do not submit to political authority, then 'If I say you're wrong, you're wrong, even if you're right.'"[12] Echoing Schmitt's theory of the friend–enemy distinction, he added, "Between friends and enemies, there is no question of freedom, only violence and subjugation. This is the reality of politics, a reality that liberals often do not dare to face."”

They openly want to give us with (in their own words) “only violence and subjugation”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiang_Shigong

Whataboutism is not an argument.
And no, how is US presence in the Western Pacific imperialism? Being a place =/= imperialism.
Annexing places against they will of the people is. What parts of the West Pacific is the US threatening to annex by force?

Indonesia and Malaysia owns the Strait of Malacca. That could be used as leverage, probably place more naval bases around the region and dock US ships there - or tax Chinese ships even more. The US should really invest in both countries with more effort to counter China's dominance on both nations' economy. Shifting US factories to Malaysia and Indonesia is already a great start for self-sufficiency. Once both are able to manufacture more of our own products to be used domestically, their dependence on China would lessen to a degree.

[Ordysius]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEEeNYXUTvY

You were saying?

I saw that a while back. It's crazy how fast China did it too

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

China absolutely would destroy the West if they had the chance. Economically they're already starting to, and they certainly have been subverting Western culture and values for a while.

[Ordysius]

Good. Hong Kong WILL be avenged. The CCP had better be shitting their pants because we're coming for them and they're gonna PAY for all the bullshit they've put us through.

God bless Hong Kong!

[Sarderia]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

I would take the 1st and 2nd Amendments, an actually free election, and less government surveillance compared to a dictatorship everytime.

[The Hindustani State]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

It does not serve India’s interests to stand up to a country that claims large parts of our land and killed our soldiers in recent weeks?

[The Hindustani State]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

US does not claim Arunachal Pradesh and kill Indian Soldiers

[Aureumterra]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

You can’t be serious…

[La Xinga]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEEeNYXUTvY

You were saying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdR-I35Ladk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvVeMD_BM4Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAl6yU5qf-4

Indeed. More stuff China is doing to Australia above. I really can't believe it.

So, where were those people saying Australia should opt out of this?

[Aclion]

China would demand payment to allow it.

We don't need China's permission to start manufacturing elsewhere. We simply stop contracting with manufactures in china and start contracting witth manufacturers in other countries.

[Arcturus Novus]

Love this international dick-measuring contest. Definitely a necessary thing to conduct.

[Greater Konkan]

It'll be 1900 all over again bois!

Bom bom bom bom bom bom bom
Bom bom bom bom bom bom
Bom bom bom bom bom
Bom bom bom bom bom bom bom