Four Countries Conduct Naval Exercise against China

[The Hindustani State]

Twin naval exercises with US supercarriers signal QUAD has arrived

As four Indian naval ships participated in a two-day joint exercise with the American supercarrier USS Nimitz off the Andaman coast this week, another supercarrier USS Ronald Regan teamed up with navies of Australia and Japan to carry out a similar exercise 4,000 km away on the mouth of the contested South China Sea.

The official statements on the exercises did not name China that has been trying to throw its weight around its neighbours. It didn’t have to as the danger is clear and present with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi clearly stating this week that Beijing was moving to the centre of the globe - in effect expounding the Middle Kingdom concept.

The United States has emerged as the bulwark against China in the South China Sea and beyond, deepening partnerships with countries in Asia, Europe and Australia to secure Indo-Pacific from a bellicose China.The two exercises make it evident that India will be the principal ally to US in securing Indian Ocean Region while Japan and Australia will be key to protecting Pacific region.

The message that put China at the centre of the United States’ focus was reinforced by US defence secretary Mark Esper late on Tuesday. Esper explained the presence of the US supercarriers in and around the South China Sea, which irks Beijing, “to back up the sovereignty of friends and partners and to reassure them that we will be there to defend those things” in the face of ‘China’s bad behaviour”.

The four navies that participated in this week’s two exercises - US, India, Japan and Australia -- would be in the Indian Ocean later in November as part of the expanded Malabar naval exercise led by India. Australia is expected to be formally invited soon to the exercise.

“This would be a QUAD exercise by default,” a military commander said, referring to the four-country Quadrilateral security dialogue or QUAD.

The US, which plays the lead role in QUAD, has become a pivot against China; exercising with the Indian Navy in the Indian Ocean and Japan and Australia in the Philippine Sea near the mouth of the South China Sea.

Mark Esper said the exercise in the Indian Ocean reflects the shared commitment of the US and India to boost naval cooperation in support of a free and open Indo-Pacific.

The exercise with the Indian Navy was conducted beyond the Six Degree channel which separates Great Nicobar from Banda Ache in Indonesia’s Sumatra. The USS Nimitz, which reaches more than 23 stories high from the keel to the top of the mast, was coming down from the South China Sea into the Strait of Malacca.

Simultaneously, USS Ronald Regan conducted the trilateral military exercise as a show of naval might in the Philippine Sea on the doorstep of the disputed South China Sea.

“Throughout the cooperative exercise period, participants will operate and train together, exercising integrated maritime operations in an all-domain warfighting environment,” the US Navy said in a statement, pointing that the exercise would help their response “to any situation”.

China claims much of the neighbouring South China Sea, though the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei also have overlapping claims in the waters. The US, in a marked change in stance on China’s disputes in the South China Sea, had described Beijing’s pursuit of offshore resources “completely unlawful” and condemned its “campaign of bullying to control” the disputed waters.

India, US, Japan, and Australia have conducted a joint naval exercise as a show of force against Chinese bullying in the Indian Ocean. What is your opinion?

I think it’s about time the world starts fighting back against Chinese aggression, China continue claiming the Spratly Islands in the South China Sea, and encroaching on other countries’ national sovereignty, such as Philippines, Indonesia, and Japan, along with old rivals like India and US. I would love to see more international cooperation against the Chinese threat.

[Thermodolia]

We need to bring other nations into the fold like Vietnam to help counter the Chinese threat

[Aureumterra]

Good

[The Two Jerseys]

Wake me when the actual shooting starts.

[Novus America]

Jai Hind!

Definitely a good thing. We need to strengthen the Quad in particular.

India, Japan, Australia and the US together are unstoppable. India’s population, Japanese technology, Australian natural resources and American military might together are a force the PRC cannot hope to match. We need to create a more formal treaty structure, more regular exercises, and also a economic component so that we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

Also beyond the quad a larger southeast Asian security structure including Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines.

After all we are all at risk. If we let the PRC salami slice and pick us off one at a time we are at high risk. So we must stand together or hang separately.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

[Region of Dwipantara]

Good, I hope there will be more – Vietnam for example is a very promising ally to recruit. Sad that Indonesia will probably not participate in such exercises any time soon, as it will go directly against its well-established geopolitical doctrine of "do not make major powers angry". Without Minister Susi Pudjiastuti to blow up the ships of intruding Chinese fishers in the North Natuna Sea, the integrity of the Indonesian northern seas has been weakening. A reduction of Chinese influence there will be necessary to preserve SEA's territorial integrity.

[Region of Dwipantara]

Jai Hind!

Definitely a good thing. We need to strengthen the Quad in particular.

India, Japan, Australia and the US together are unstoppable. India’s population, Japanese technology, Australian natural resources and American military might together are a force the PRC cannot hope to match. We need to create a more formal treaty structure, more regular exercises, and also a economic component so that we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

Also beyond the quad a larger southeast Asian security structure including Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines.

After all we are all at risk. If we let the PRC salami slice and pick us off one at a time we are at high risk. So we must stand together or hang separately.

At least for now, Indonesia lacks the capability to effectively and fully police its own waters, as its past military doctrine prioritizes the army over the navy. It is thus not too hard for foreign powers to try sow dangerous sentiments especially in the outer isles. So right now, Indonesia's foreign policy is to prevent that by being friendly to all sides ("1000 friends is too few, 1 enemy is too many"). Until that's covered, I don't think we can really do anything too openly.

The current government also shows a clear preference to Chinese investment, though 1) the current ruling coalition now include a pro-US faction and 2) afaik we're also trying to diversify, so it might not be too late.

Phillipines from what I heard is a lost cause for now. Cambodia is basically a satellite state reliant oj Beijing for its economy. Other than that, Vietnam and Malaysia (especially with Najib gone, though I admittedly know very little about the current PM's objectives) are a very promising potential allies. Taiwan is a tinderbox that can result in a massive Chinese retaliation, so the US must be very careful.

Tbh, the only way SEA states can actually protect its territorial integrity is if we agree first on our own disputes in the North Natuna Sea (yeah I'm not going to use the "SCS" name). Each must make reciprocal concessions, all significant disputes must be cleared, then we can finally unite as a bloc with clear objectives to challenge Chinese aggressions. Cambodia (and possibly Laos) will obviously try to hijack such mutual agreement though (as it directly runs against their pro-China economic interests), so that must also be tackled first.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

The main asset of a manufacturing company is its skilled workforce. OK, except at the low end where the workers are not very skilled, or at the high end (eg semiconductor fabs) where the factory is very expensive.

The idea that you can move a factory across borders without losing a good part of the value in the factory, is quite naive. Not to mention China would demand payment to allow it.

You would be better off doing it by the laws of capitalism. Sell that factory to China, build another one elsewhere.

[Region of Dwipantara]

we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

The main asset of a manufacturing company is its skilled workforce. OK, except at the low end where the workers are not very skilled, or at the high end (eg semiconductor fabs) where the factory is very expensive.

The idea that you can move a factory across borders without losing a good part of the value in the factory, is quite naive. Not to mention China would demand payment to allow it.

You would be better off doing it by the laws of capitalism. Sell that factory to China, build another one elsewhere.

The idea of moving factories out of China is a geopolitical strategy to reduce reliance on a single country, especially one that might be more and more hostile to work with as the second cold war(ish) progresses. It will also strengthen economic ties with the SEA states. Which is why Japan is already starting to do that by paying its firms to leave China. Of course, as a potential recipient for what is essentially free western money, I very much support this trend.

[Cetacea]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

I agree, the USA only looks after its own interest and if anything does happen its the region thats going to suffer with Australia thrown under the bus and used as a scapegoat with the hope that the US gets to pick over the Left overs.

At least for now, Indonesia lacks the capability to effectively and fully police its own waters, as its past military doctrine prioritizes the army over the navy. It is thus not too hard for foreign powers to try sow dangerous sentiments especially in the outer isles. So right now, Indonesia's foreign policy is to prevent that by being friendly to all sides ("1000 friends is too few, 1 enemy is too many"). Until that's covered, I don't think we can really do anything too openly.

The current government also shows a clear preference to Chinese investment, though 1) the current ruling coalition now include a pro-US faction and 2) afaik we're also trying to diversify, so it might not be too late.

Phillipines from what I heard is a lost cause for now. Cambodia is basically a satellite state reliant oj Beijing for its economy. Other than that, Vietnam and Malaysia (especially with Najib gone, though I admittedly know very little about the current PM's objectives) are a very promising potential allies. Taiwan is a tinderbox that can result in a massive Chinese retaliation, so the US must be very careful.

Tbh, the only way SEA states can actually protect its territorial integrity is if we agree first on our own disputes in the North Natuna Sea (yeah I'm not going to use the "SCS" name). Each must make reciprocal concessions, all significant disputes must be cleared, then we can finally unite as a bloc with clear objectives to challenge Chinese aggressions. Cambodia (and possibly Laos) will obviously try to hijack such mutual agreement though (as it directly runs against their pro-China economic interests), so that must also be tackled first.

Good summary, unfortunately SEA showing some united thought and agreement is not going to happen soon, the Chinese Economy is just too dominant and its investment cash flows too lucrative.
It would be awesome if SEA could form an effective bloc to hold the Sea of Champa though

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Then when the Indian economy outstrips China's in a couple of decades, the US can organise naval exercises off the coast of India, as part of a coalition to protest the treatment of Dalits or some other excuse.

[Region of Dwipantara]

Then when the Indian economy outstrips China's in a couple of decades, the US can organise naval exercises off the coast of India, as part of a coalition to protest the treatment of Dalits or some other excuse.

Unless there are some strategic interest involved, I don't think that would be the case. North Natuna Sea/SCS is a highly strategic region vital to East Asia's supply and trade lifeline, not to mention containing a bunch of gas.

[Novus America]

we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

The main asset of a manufacturing company is its skilled workforce. OK, except at the low end where the workers are not very skilled, or at the high end (eg semiconductor fabs) where the factory is very expensive.

The idea that you can move a factory across borders without losing a good part of the value in the factory, is quite naive. Not to mention China would demand payment to allow it.

You would be better off doing it by the laws of capitalism. Sell that factory to China, build another one elsewhere.

First of all neoliberalism is a path to death, some state intervention in the economy is sometimes necessary.

And when one says “move factories” it means basically that, building a new one, usually no literally picking up and moving the factory obviously.

Although a wealthy country like the US can recruit some of their skilled workers as immigrants.

[Region of Dwipantara]

Good summary, unfortunately SEA showing some united thought and agreement is not going to happen soon, the Chinese Economy is just too dominant and its investment cash flows too lucrative.
It would be awesome if SEA could form an effective bloc to hold the Sea of Champa though

Obviously, the solution is to counter it with a similarly lucrative investment flow. And combine it with a strong, trustworthy, good-faith framework to back it up, as opposed to China's predatory(ish) lending method—something the West+ excells at. After all, there is no god but the Almighty Dollar.

[Novus America]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

How is this aggression? Nobody was hurt. We had a naval exercise together. This is a defensive alliance.

Given Australia has been subject to various PRC threats it’s is in Australia’s interests, especially because all do respect to Australia, it is the least powerful of the Quad by far, simply due to its population and economic size. On its own the PRC will walk all over Australia.

Remember the PRC called Australia “gum stuck to the bottom of China’s shoe” just for Australia calling for an independent investigation into Coronavirus outbreak. That is how the PRC operates. They demand you end free speech, Krause and obey them unconditionally or be crushed.

And the PRC literally just killed over 20 Indian soldiers and claims whole Indian states as PRC territory, something the US does not do.

Sure the US is far from perfect, but this is ridiculous.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

How is this aggression? Nobody was hurt. We had a naval exercise together. This is a defensive alliance.

Given Australia has been subject to various ParC threats it’s is in Australia’s interests, especially because all do respect to Australia, it is the least powerful of the Quad by far, simply due to its population and economic size.

And the PRC literally just killed over 20 Indian soldiers and claims whole Indian states as PRC territory, something the US does not do.

Sure the US is far from perfect, but this is ridiculous.

To some liberals and leftists, it's always unneccessary "aggression" when the west does it.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEEeNYXUTvY

You were saying?

[Novus America]

Then when the Indian economy outstrips China's in a couple of decades, the US can organise naval exercises off the coast of India, as part of a coalition to protest the treatment of Dalits or some other excuse.

A few decades from now maybe the world will be different, alliances do not last forever but I doubt this. India and the PRC are very different. It is not because the PRC has a big economy, after all the EU has a big one and yet the US and EU are not in the same level of controversy.

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

[Thermodolia]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

This has nothing to do with COVID. This has been in the works since the Obama Administration and will continue if Biden wins in November.

The trade war, parts of the Trans Pacific Trade Agreement and other things are all designed to halt Chinese aggression. To that end we should extend the welcome to Taiwan, Vietnam, Myanmar, The Philippines, and Thailand. We should focus on building an Asian NATO and eventually an anti-Chinese economic bloc.

China can’t survive without exporting, its entire economy relies on it. If we create an economic bloc that halts most trade to China they will collapse from within without any need to shed blood

[Novus America]

Jai Hind!

Definitely a good thing. We need to strengthen the Quad in particular.

India, Japan, Australia and the US together are unstoppable. India’s population, Japanese technology, Australian natural resources and American military might together are a force the PRC cannot hope to match. We need to create a more formal treaty structure, more regular exercises, and also a economic component so that we move factories out of the PRC to the quad countries.

Also beyond the quad a larger southeast Asian security structure including Vietnam, Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines.

After all we are all at risk. If we let the PRC salami slice and pick us off one at a time we are at high risk. So we must stand together or hang separately.

At least for now, Indonesia lacks the capability to effectively and fully police its own waters, as its past military doctrine prioritizes the army over the navy. It is thus not too hard for foreign powers to try sow dangerous sentiments especially in the outer isles. So right now, Indonesia's foreign policy is to prevent that by being friendly to all sides ("1000 friends is too few, 1 enemy is too many"). Until that's covered, I don't think we can really do anything too openly.

The current government also shows a clear preference to Chinese investment, though 1) the current ruling coalition now include a pro-US faction and 2) afaik we're also trying to diversify, so it might not be too late.

Phillipines from what I heard is a lost cause for now. Cambodia is basically a satellite state reliant oj Beijing for its economy. Other than that, Vietnam and Malaysia (especially with Najib gone, though I admittedly know very little about the current PM's objectives) are a very promising potential allies. Taiwan is a tinderbox that can result in a massive Chinese retaliation, so the US must be very careful.

Tbh, the only way SEA states can actually protect its territorial integrity is if we agree first on our own disputes in the North Natuna Sea (yeah I'm not going to use the "SCS" name). Each must make reciprocal concessions, all significant disputes must be cleared, then we can finally unite as a bloc with clear objectives to challenge Chinese aggressions. Cambodia (and possibly Laos) will obviously try to hijack such mutual agreement though (as it directly runs against their pro-China economic interests), so that must also be tackled first.

Well it is a long game here. We cannot do this all overnight, it needs to be a long term project. Building a coalition to deter PRC aggression and end our reliance on PRC money will take time, but this exercise is a step in the right direction, if a small one but every step helps.

And strictly speaking only the US, India and to a lesser degree Japan is needed. And others that stand with the big three will benefit, not all have to do it for it to work. While smaller countries will be helpful the hard truth is some can contribute more than others in the battle to contain Xi’s aggression.

The Philippines is an interesting case in that the President is pro PRC, along with the corrupt political elite, but the population and military is against the PRC. Hopefully that will lead to significant political changes.

Indonesia as well, hopefully there can be a common movement of the people to vote PRC stooges out of office. I do not expect it to happen soon, but still it is a goal to work for.

But I agree, the other SEA countries need to settle the division of the SCS, probably using something like this http://www.southchinasea.org/files/2011 ... 1_full.jpg to settle their claims.

The PRC demands the SEA countries deal with the PRC on and individual bilateral basis, and never combined with each other, and especially not with the US, the PRC knows individual SEA countries are not strong enough on their own to do not much, but together with the aid of the US, Japan, India and (to a lesser degree) Australia you absolutely could.

This is why the PRC freaks out when anyone works together to counter it, the PRC’s strategy works on keeping its enemies divided and corrupted, the PRC’s strategy would completely collapse if its victims stood together rather than fighting each other or being distracted by bribes.

Because this is such a big threat we stand together or hang separately.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEEeNYXUTvY

You were saying?

Not watching a 15 minute lecture.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I really wish Australia would opt out of this American-led aggression. It does not serve Australia's interest, nor India's, it's all about the US fucking itself up and looking for someone to blame.

At least until November. Let's see if the next US President will put America's balls on the line, before we put ours.

This has nothing to do with COVID. This has been in the works since the Obama Administration and will continue if Biden wins in November.

The trade war, parts of the Trans Pacific Trade Agreement and other things are all designed to halt Chinese aggression. To that end we should extend the welcome to Taiwan, Vietnam, Myanmar, The Philippines, and Thailand. We should focus on building an Asian NATO and eventually an anti-Chinese economic bloc.

China can’t survive without exporting, its entire economy relies on it. If we create an economic bloc that halts most trade to China they will collapse from within without any need to shed blood

I'm not very interested in your agenda of "making China collapse" because I expect it would take a decade or more and in the meantime the US is just going to use my country as a base, and my country will be stuck on the same side as the US. In a second Cold War.

Your fantasy coalition is less attractive to me than continuing peaceful trade with China, as with any other nation, regardless of their internal affairs.

The South China Sea thing, I agree with. I'm prepared to go along with the US on that. But all this "China cheats at trade" because you can't admit that your own capitalists betrayed you and China plays a smarter game in trade than you do, it's just pathetic.

[Cetacea]

The problem here is not really that the PRC has a big economy (except that it was build by destroying American manufacturing) but that it has imperialist claims against its neighbors, wants to drive the US out of the Pacific Ocean, and that the PRC wants the West destroyed.

India does not have the PRC’s anti-Western megalomania, and the US and India have some disagreements but more common interests.

oh please, China doesnt want to destroy the west, that would be bad for business

and isnt it a bit Ironic to talk about Chinese Imperialism vs the US presence in the Western Pacific?

[Thermodolia]

This has nothing to do with COVID. This has been in the works since the Obama Administration and will continue if Biden wins in November.

The trade war, parts of the Trans Pacific Trade Agreement and other things are all designed to halt Chinese aggression. To that end we should extend the welcome to Taiwan, Vietnam, Myanmar, The Philippines, and Thailand. We should focus on building an Asian NATO and eventually an anti-Chinese economic bloc.

China can’t survive without exporting, its entire economy relies on it. If we create an economic bloc that halts most trade to China they will collapse from within without any need to shed blood

I'm not very interested in your agenda of "making China collapse" because I expect it would take a decade or more and in the meantime the US is just going to use my country as a base, and my country will be stuck on the same side as the US. In a second Cold War.

The second Cold War is just a continuation of the first. The Cold War never ended, people just thought it did. And yes bringing China to heel is going to take time. But in the end the world will be a much better place

Your fantasy coalition is less attractive to me than continuing peaceful trade with China, as with any other nation, regardless of their internal affairs.

It’s not a fantasy coalition. Vietnam doesn’t like the PRC one bit, same with most of those nations I listed. But if you want your nation to become a chinese puppet don’t come crying to US when they demand your arrest for talking about freedom for Hong Kong.

The South China Sea thing, I agree with. I'm prepared to go along with the US on that. But all this "China cheats at trade" because you can't admit that your own capitalists betrayed you and China plays a smarter game in trade than you do, it's just pathetic.

No I quite admit that the capitalists betrayed America. I’m one of the first to say that.