Taiwan: Chinese Sending Military Planes "Almost Daily"

[Sundiata]

War is messy, ugly.

While our objectives have not been achieved yet, the tide will turn but we have to protect our allies in the region and continue to foster democracy amongst them. At that point, they will know and enjoy freedom like they never have.

We've been trying for 80 years gov, and in Iraq specifically for nearly 20, nearly 30 if one considers Gulf War 1 and the economic war of the 90s, and cost millions of lives and over a trillion dollars. Over that time scale and with that economic and human costs you'd think the most powerful state on Earth would have something to show for it.

To show for it we have an Iraq free of dictatorship.

[Novus America]

The US in the ME should be its own topic though. It has absolutely nothing to do with Taiwan.

[Post War America]

We've been trying for 80 years gov, and in Iraq specifically for nearly 20, nearly 30 if one considers Gulf War 1 and the economic war of the 90s, and cost millions of lives and over a trillion dollars. Over that time scale and with that economic and human costs you'd think the most powerful state on Earth would have something to show for it.

To show for it we have an Iraq free of dictatorship.

...I'm not sure there really even is an Iraq anymore, more a small Kurdish Enclave and a warzone between Iranian backed Shi'ite militias and Saudi backed Sunni militias, so that's not an improvement, and certainly not worth the blood and treasure.

[Post War America]

The US in the ME should be its own topic though. It has absolutely nothing to do with Taiwan.

As I understand it, we are talking about it in the context of the alleged duty of the United States to democracy worldwide, and its failure to do so. As to how it relates to Taiwan, I'm sure Sundiata would support an invasion of China to reinstate the Guomindang.

[New haven america]

We've been trying for 80 years gov, and in Iraq specifically for nearly 20, nearly 30 if one considers Gulf War 1 and the economic war of the 90s, and cost millions of lives and over a trillion dollars. Over that time scale and with that economic and human costs you'd think the most powerful state on Earth would have something to show for it.

To show for it we have an Iraq free of dictatorship.

Yeah, it just lead to ISIS and the break off of Kurdistan.

WTF are you on about? And again, when did Taiwan move to the ME?

[Post War America]

To show for it we have an Iraq free of dictatorship.

Yeah, it just lead to ISIS and the break off of Kurdistan.

WTF are you on about? And again, when did Taiwan move to the ME?

I believe this would logically lead to the assumption that Sundiata believes that installing democracy in China, ala the invasion of Iraq is somehow not the worst damn idea since the end of World War 2.

[Novus America]

The US in the ME should be its own topic though. It has absolutely nothing to do with Taiwan.

As I understand it, we are talking about it in the context of the alleged duty of the United States to democracy worldwide, and its failure to do so. As to how it relates to Taiwan, I'm sure Sundiata would support an invasion of China to reinstate the Guomindang.

But that is still a stretch, I do not want the mods to hit us for thread jacking, that deserves its own thread.

[Post War America]

As I understand it, we are talking about it in the context of the alleged duty of the United States to democracy worldwide, and its failure to do so. As to how it relates to Taiwan, I'm sure Sundiata would support an invasion of China to reinstate the Guomindang.

But that is still a stretch, I do not want the mods to hit us for thread jacking, that deserves its own thread.

Fair enough, I'll try to bring it back on topic if I get a response.

[Novus America]

Yeah, it just lead to ISIS and the break off of Kurdistan.

WTF are you on about? And again, when did Taiwan move to the ME?

I believe this would logically lead to the assumption that Sundiata believes that installing democracy in China, ala the invasion of Iraq is somehow not the worst damn idea since the end of World War 2.

Yeah invading the PRC to overthrow the government would be a bad idea, far beyond any capability we have. If Iraq took some 300,000 and the PRC has more than 35 times bigger a population we would need millions of soldiers. It would be a very bad idea.

Containment, cutting them out of our economy, sanctions on PRC members, building up our defenses etc are the ways to go, not invading.

[Post War America]

I believe this would logically lead to the assumption that Sundiata believes that installing democracy in China, ala the invasion of Iraq is somehow not the worst damn idea since the end of World War 2.

Yeah invading the PRC to overthrow the government would be a bad idea, far beyond any capability we have. If Iraq took some 300,000 and the PRC has more than 35 times bigger a population we would need millions of soldiers. It would be a very bad idea.

Containment, cutting them out of our economy, sanctions on PRC members, building up our defenses etc are the ways to go, not invading.

I can agree to a certain extent. Though I maintain that recognition of Taiwan should come with a formal declaration of independence and renunciation of claims on the mainland.

[Sundiata]

Yeah, it just lead to ISIS and the break off of Kurdistan.

WTF are you on about? And again, when did Taiwan move to the ME?

I believe this would logically lead to the assumption that Sundiata believes that installing democracy in China, ala the invasion of Iraq is somehow not the worst damn idea since the end of World War 2.

Should we military invade the PRC? No, at least not now.

Before an invasion of that scale we've got to cut down Xi Jinping and his thought at every possible opportunity, violence almost always should be a last resort.

[Post War America]

I believe this would logically lead to the assumption that Sundiata believes that installing democracy in China, ala the invasion of Iraq is somehow not the worst damn idea since the end of World War 2.

Should we military invade the PRC? No, at least not now.

Before an invasion of that scale we've got to cut down Xi Jinping and his thought at every possible opportunity, violence almost always should be a last resort.

Unfortunately, you cannot really impose democracy from without, so the idea of invasion to bring it to China is farcical at best. This goes doubly for attempting to reinstate the Guomindang which has a long pedigree of being a brutal dictatorship on its own, and from which a somewhat more democratic government really only emerged as a result of the conditions unique to the island of Taiwan, that would difficult if not impossible to recreate on the mainland, especially if they try to maintain the borders of modern mainland China, which, given that they do in fact claim all the same things the CPC claims, seems likely.

[Sundiata]

Should we military invade the PRC? No, at least not now.

Before an invasion of that scale we've got to cut down Xi Jinping and his thought at every possible opportunity, violence almost always should be a last resort.

Unfortunately, you cannot really impose democracy from without, so the idea of invasion to bring it to China is farcical at best. This goes doubly for attempting to reinstate the Guomindang which has a long pedigree of being a brutal dictatorship on its own, and from which a somewhat more democratic government really only emerged as a result of the conditions unique to the island of Taiwan, that would difficult if not impossible to recreate on the mainland, especially if they try to maintain the borders of modern mainland China, which, given that they do in fact claim all the same things the CPC claims, seems likely.

I'm sorry, I just strongly disagree. We can begin the process of forming democracy from the outside but we need to strongly support the pro-democracy factions.

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Unfortunately, you cannot really impose democracy from without, so the idea of invasion to bring it to China is farcical at best. This goes doubly for attempting to reinstate the Guomindang which has a long pedigree of being a brutal dictatorship on its own, and from which a somewhat more democratic government really only emerged as a result of the conditions unique to the island of Taiwan, that would difficult if not impossible to recreate on the mainland, especially if they try to maintain the borders of modern mainland China, which, given that they do in fact claim all the same things the CPC claims, seems likely.

I'm sorry, I just strongly disagree. We can begin the process of forming democracy from the outside but we need to strongly support the pro-democracy factions.

Turn thy other cheek

Destabilizing a foreign country for your own abstract governance will maximize human suffering

Look at Iraq, Libya.

[Novus America]

Yeah invading the PRC to overthrow the government would be a bad idea, far beyond any capability we have. If Iraq took some 300,000 and the PRC has more than 35 times bigger a population we would need millions of soldiers. It would be a very bad idea.

Containment, cutting them out of our economy, sanctions on PRC members, building up our defenses etc are the ways to go, not invading.

I can agree to a certain extent. Though I maintain that recognition of Taiwan should come with a formal declaration of independence and renunciation of claims on the mainland.

They KMT today is completely different than the KMT of the 30s, and is not even in power anymore.
I think it sufficient they simply pledge not to take anything by force, really the risk of Taiwan starting a war over some claim that has been effectively dead 70 years is nil.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

I'm sorry, I just strongly disagree. We can begin the process of forming democracy from the outside but we need to strongly support the pro-democracy factions.

Turn thy other cheek

Destabilizing a foreign country for your own abstract governance will maximize human suffering

Look at Iraq, Libya.

Iraq and Libya weren't threats to the rest of the world until the USA overthrew their dictators.

China already is one.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I can agree to a certain extent. Though I maintain that recognition of Taiwan should come with a formal declaration of independence and renunciation of claims on the mainland.

They KMT today is completely different than the KMT of the 30s, and is not even in power anymore.
I think it sufficient they simply pledge not to take anything by force, really the risk of Taiwan starting a war over some claim that has been effectively dead 70 years is nil.

In fact the modern KMT is very hip on Cross-Strait cooperation because otherwise they have to give up their irredentist claims. Chiang Kai Shek is rolling in his grave.

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Turn thy other cheek

Destabilizing a foreign country for your own abstract governance will maximize human suffering

Look at Iraq, Libya.

Iraq and Libya weren't threats to the rest of the world until the USA overthrew their dictators.

China already is one.

Yet they were made out to be. Let them be a threat if they are, might drive competition.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Iraq and Libya weren't threats to the rest of the world until the USA overthrew their dictators.

China already is one.

Yet they were made out to be. Let them be a threat if they are, might drive competition.

It's not fair competition when you're stealing other countries' trade secrets.

Or the fish from their waters, from that matter.

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Yet they were made out to be. Let them be a threat if they are, might drive competition.

It's not fair competition when you're stealing other countries' trade secrets.

Or the fish from their waters, from that matter.

Yhea it sucks
Can’t do much about it as an individual, all you can do is raise awareness

[Saiwania]

Japanese internment in the US was correct by the standards of the 1940s and with China being the new enemy on the world stage, I see some great potential in bringing internment in general back (if it can be done) only applied against anyone whose loyalties are to China or is suspect. If it were national policy in the US like I wanted, I imagine it should extend to anyone who visited mainland China and spent time there; beyond just the Chinese Americans who were born abroad.

Because China is a nuclear power as well and is unlikely to agree to a conventional war without nukes should they lose at a battlefield of their choosing, we have to be content with competition as opposed to war. If there is ever a chance for a proxy war against China to drain Chinese strength and progress, it should be taken. I theorize that we can help the Taliban and other Islamists to forment conflict in Xinjiang if the people there are chafing under tyranny from the Chinese state more so than other provinces in China.

If the Taliban for example, replicated what it did to the US military in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda, I'd consider that venture a success. The Chinese military doesn't need to be destroyed, just diminished or wrecked via a good ambush or guerilla campaign until they're exhausted. If China is kept busy enough with a proxy war and pushback from the rest of the world, Taiwan will be safer.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Japanese internment in the US was correct by the standards of the 1940s and with China being the new enemy on the world stage, I see some great potential in bringing internment in general back (if it can be done) only applied against anyone whose loyalties are to China or is suspect. If it were national policy in the US like I wanted, I imagine it should extend to anyone who visited mainland China and spent time there; beyond just the Chinese Americans who were born abroad.

Because China is a nuclear power as well and is unlikely to agree to a conventional war without nukes should they lose at a battlefield of their choosing, we have to be content with competition as opposed to war. If there is ever a chance for a proxy war against China to drain Chinese strength and progress, it should be taken. I theorize that we can help the Taliban and other Islamists to forment conflict in Xinjiang if the people there are chafing under tyranny from the Chinese state more so than other provinces in China.

If the Taliban for example, replicated what it did to the US military in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda, I'd consider that venture a success. The Chinese military doesn't need to be destroyed, just diminished or wrecked via a good ambush or guerilla campaign until they're exhausted. If China is kept busy enough with a proxy war and pushback from the rest of the world, Taiwan will be safer.

What the fuck?? The US should have learned already from its ventures during the Afghani Civil (see: proxy) War and the resulting 9/11 that supporting Islamists whose ideal is to rid the world of all infidels isn’t, in fact, the best move in the long run.

Internment camps are most definitely not the right option as well. We’ve already also seen why such camps are pretty bad with historical precedence (as you even mentioned yourself). America should give way to law and order (despite the lack of such process in Portland at the moment).

[Saiwania]

What the fuck?? The US should have learned already from its ventures during the Afghani Civil (see: proxy) War and the resulting 9/11 that supporting Islamists whose ideal is to rid the world of all infidels isn’t, in fact, the best move in the long run.

Internment camps are most definitely not the right option as well. We’ve already also seen why such camps are pretty bad with historical precedence (as you even mentioned yourself). America should give way to law and order (despite the lack of such process in Portland at the moment).

It isn't ideal, but the Taliban are still the best and most effective guerilla force in the field in that part of the world. We can conclude that the Taliban is never going away and that they do or will make anything pertaining to the Islamic world in the Pakistan region their business. And we know that the Chinese state is oppressing Muslims in Xinjiang so until China stops with that, there is perhaps a common enemy the Taliban can turn their attention to. There is at least one or more major groups of people who can be more easily turned against China if the help and arms are gotten to them in Xinjiang from over the border.

It is different this time because China is essentially the new Soviet Union only much more powerful and successful than the Soviets ever were. What is good for China won't be good for the rest of the world. Hence, we have to do every trick possible to war or compete with them enough to stop China in its tracks, without actually going to war with China given that they have nukes.

[-Astoria-]

I imagine it should extend to anyone who visited mainland China and spent time there; beyond just the Chinese Americans who were born abroad.

So, under that, anyone who even transfers via Chinese airports is immediately suspect.

What on earth.

[Sundiata]

I'm sorry, I just strongly disagree. We can begin the process of forming democracy from the outside but we need to strongly support the pro-democracy factions.

Turn thy other cheek

Destabilizing a foreign country for your own abstract governance will maximize human suffering

Look at Iraq, Libya.

Ending a dictatorship to establish democracy will maximize human development.

Look at Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Rwanda, and Botswana.