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The events in Portland & the plan to take it nationwide

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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:24 pm

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:09 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Kowani wrote:Oh, absolutely true.

If we end the war on drugs, it will be far easier to solve the issues stemming from it. This includes "Police Brutality".

In fact, solving Police Brutality REQUIRES ending the war on drugs. Trump is the perfect president to do that. Portland should be seen as an ominous warning to what will happen if Trump doesn't end the war on drugs.

If Trump where the perfect president to end it he already would have. He has not, and instead exasperated the problem.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:15 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Nilrahrarfan wrote:If we end the war on drugs, it will be far easier to solve the issues stemming from it. This includes "Police Brutality".

In fact, solving Police Brutality REQUIRES ending the war on drugs. Trump is the perfect president to do that. Portland should be seen as an ominous warning to what will happen if Trump doesn't end the war on drugs.

If Trump where the perfect president to end it he already would have. He has not, and instead exasperated the problem.

I'd probably say Joe Biden is unlikely to get things done either. At least Trump is doing SOMETHING! Whether or not it's working is another question entirely.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:17 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:If Trump where the perfect president to end it he already would have. He has not, and instead exasperated the problem.

I'd probably say Joe Biden is unlikely to get things done either. At least Trump is doing SOMETHING! Whether or not it's working is another question entirely.

Doing nothing is better then making things worse. Trump is making things worse. And whether Biden would end the war has nothing to do with the fact that Trump has had 4 years and has not ended the war on drugs.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Picairn
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:I'd probably say Joe Biden is unlikely to get things done either. At least Trump is doing SOMETHING! Whether or not it's working is another question entirely.

Oh yes, Trump is working very hard to drive the US into a hellish dictatorship.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:29 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:At least Trump is doing SOMETHING!

Yeah... he's forcibly disappearing people. Again.
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FutureAmerica
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Ex-Nation

Postby FutureAmerica » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:36 pm

Portland and the rest of the US has become a mess because of the politics of the Right and the Left. Everyone in between suffers.

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:37 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:If Trump where the perfect president to end it he already would have. He has not, and instead exasperated the problem.

I'd probably say Joe Biden is unlikely to get things done either. At least Trump is doing SOMETHING! Whether or not it's working is another question entirely.


Here's an easy question. What has Trump done towards ending the War on Drugs?
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:39 pm

Liriena wrote:
Nilrahrarfan wrote:At least Trump is doing SOMETHING!

Yeah... he's forcibly disappearing people. Again.

I don't think you count as disappeared if you surface later on down the road. It's still not good but Trump ain't exactly Videla yet.

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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:40 pm

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Kowani wrote:Oh, absolutely true.

If we end the war on drugs, it will be far easier to solve the issues stemming from it. This includes "Police Brutality".

In fact, solving Police Brutality REQUIRES ending the war on drugs.
Well, yes.
Trump is the perfect president to do that. Portland should be seen as an ominous warning to what will happen if Trump doesn't end the war on drugs.

...No. In any capacity.
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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:43 pm

FutureAmerica wrote:Portland and the rest of the US has become a mess because of the politics of the Right and the Left. Everyone in between suffers.

The left hardly has any power over the U.S. The Democrats and Republicans are both overall right-wing parties, so don't blame us for the suffering caused by capitalism.
Last edited by Alcala-Cordel on Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:46 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:The left hardly has any power over the U.S. The Democrats and Republicans are both overall right-wing parties, so don't blame us for the suffering caused by capitalism.

>Liberals
>Right-Wing

You get one.

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:49 pm

Fahran wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:The left hardly has any power over the U.S. The Democrats and Republicans are both overall right-wing parties, so don't blame us for the suffering caused by capitalism.

>Liberals
>Right-Wing

You get one.

Actually modern american liberalism is very much a right wing ideology. They are economically in the far right. And the whole identitarian streak is very much a right wing thing. True leftists call for the workers of the world to unite, not for them to split into gangs based on gender, race and other factors and than fight among them self for scraps falling off the tables of the rich. That's what the right does.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:50 pm

Fahran wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:The left hardly has any power over the U.S. The Democrats and Republicans are both overall right-wing parties, so don't blame us for the suffering caused by capitalism.

>Liberals
>Right-Wing

You get one.

Liberals are right-wing, Ran, we've been over this.
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Fahran
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Fahran » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:59 pm

Purpelia wrote:Actually modern american liberalism is very much a right wing ideology. They are economically in the far right. And the whole identitarian streak is very much a right wing thing. True leftists call for the workers of the world to unite, not for them to split into gangs based on gender, race and other factors and than fight among them self for scraps falling off the tables of the rich. That's what the right does.

A conceptualization of left-wing politics that excludes class signifiers is more or less antiquated at the moment. In any case, even the Neo-Marxists had an obsession with identity, specifically in the form of class consciousness and solidarity among the proletariat. The more radical elements within modern progressive movements have capitalized on preexisting theories that borrow from Neo-Marxism and the Frankfurt School to create a multifaceted, equity-oriented mode of ideological politics. That this occurs largely within a liberal framework in the mainstream political and policy-making process doesn't really discount that, especially not with more radical activists and intellectuals.

TLDR: Most politics is identity politics.

Kowani wrote:Liberals are right-wing, Ran, we've been over this.

I don't believe we ever had the occasion to finish that conversation but we probably shoudn't have it here. One day!

Also, I love that as a nickname.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Joohan » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:27 pm

People present at violent riots and suspected of partaking in said violence being detained by police =/= Gestapo

The riots have killed over 30 people nation wide now, injured thousands, and have destroyed billions of dollars in property ( much to the detriment of unaffiliated small business owners ) - the affect of draining police resources in order to combat rioters in regards to their ability to assist in other none riot related crimes still remains unknown.

These are the worst national race riots since 1968, incurring the deployment of active duty military units to quell the violence. The Trump administration is taking a much more civil approach to the matter than what LBJ had back in '68, electing to rely upon federal agencies to detain the most violent suspects in a given area of protest - as opposed to simply calling in the military to more harshly put down the mayhem. If the options presented to us are either to call up the military to bring the boot down nation wide, or have special task forces detain those most suspect of criminal activity, then the answer is clear.

The idea that these amalgamated task forces, coming from over a dozen different agencies, are somehow a secret police force ( or more unbelievably, going to be used against minorities, as OP insinuates ) is fear mongering. Any chance for reasoning with the rioters was tossed out the window once they started attacking innocent people and communities - these are no longer civil protests; quite frankly, I applaud the restraint with which the current administration has exercised during the whole affair, considering the extensive historical justification that the president has for being able to deploy the military for times exactly like this.

Police reform should and will come, but it will not be brought on by the thugs in the street or their online enablers. There is no room for vigilantism or mob rule in the United States, and the administration's actions in spite of DNC opposition will ensure the safety of Americans.
Last edited by Joohan on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Joohan
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Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Joohan » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:37 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:How is kidnapping innocent people restoring peace?

It's Restoring Peace because it's happening to BLM and Antifa protestors. If it started happening to anti-maskers or MAGAs then they'd be outraged faster than you can say "Jade Helm".


Remember all the buildings the anti-maskers burned down, all the people they beat and killed in the streets, that time they destroyed a police station, or when they gripped a nation in fear of wanton mob violence being dished out indiscriminately?

Yeah, me neither.
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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:51 pm

Joohan wrote:
Gormwood wrote:It's Restoring Peace because it's happening to BLM and Antifa protestors. If it started happening to anti-maskers or MAGAs then they'd be outraged faster than you can say "Jade Helm".


Remember all the buildings the anti-maskers burned down, all the people they beat and killed in the streets, that time they destroyed a police station, or when they gripped a nation in fear of wanton mob violence being dished out indiscriminately?

Yeah, me neither.

So, who were all the people getting beaten and killed in Portland?
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Alcala-Cordel
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:18 am

Fahran wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:The left hardly has any power over the U.S. The Democrats and Republicans are both overall right-wing parties, so don't blame us for the suffering caused by capitalism.

>Liberals
>Right-Wing

You get one.

Liberals are a subgroup of the right-wing.
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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:29 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Joohan wrote:
Remember all the buildings the anti-maskers burned down, all the people they beat and killed in the streets, that time they destroyed a police station, or when they gripped a nation in fear of wanton mob violence being dished out indiscriminately?

Yeah, me neither.

So, who were all the people getting beaten and killed in Portland?


Pretty sure it was happening in Bowling Green again.
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Plzen
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Ex-Nation

Postby Plzen » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:44 am

Joohan wrote:Police reform should and will come,

I very much doubt that. This happens again and again and have been happening since the late 19th Century and nothing ever gets done because “first we need stability, and when things are quiet we’ll solve the underlying problem” is an excuse right-wingers tell their supporters to justify whatever violence they need to use to crush upset people, not an actual plan they have any intention of following up on when they get their peace and quiet.

The police desire peace. Whether that is a peace established by making everyone happy and with no reason to cause trouble, or whether it is one established by intimidating everyone with a grievance and beating them down into submission, is none of their concern. The latter is quicker, and so it goes.

In a country like the United States where social conservatism is firmly entrenched, the only way for society to move forwards is if a disruptive mob carries it forwards. It wasn’t by sitting around contentedly in the existing political system that Germans won their national healthcare, that Britain won her universal suffrage, and it won’t be by sitting around contentedly under the existing political establishment that the US will get its egalitarian law enforcement.
Last edited by Plzen on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:28 am

Plzen wrote:
Joohan wrote:Police reform should and will come,

I very much doubt that. This happens again and again and have been happening since the late 19th Century and nothing ever gets done because “first we need stability, and when things are quiet we’ll solve the underlying problem” is an excuse right-wingers tell their supporters to justify whatever violence they need to use to crush upset people, not an actual plan they have any intention of following up on when they get their peace and quiet.

The police desire peace. Whether that is a peace established by making everyone happy and with no reason to cause trouble, or whether it is one established by intimidating everyone with a grievance and beating them down into submission, is none of their concern. The latter is quicker, and so it goes.

In a country like the United States where social conservatism is firmly entrenched, the only way for society to move forwards is if a disruptive mob carries it forwards. It wasn’t by sitting around contentedly in the existing political system that Germans won their national healthcare, that Britain won her universal suffrage, and it won’t be by sitting around contentedly under the existing political establishment that the US will get its egalitarian law enforcement.

This is a pretty valid take.

Liberal politicians have for years engaged in civility and respectability politics, promising progress in exchange for social harmony, and that progress has either never materialized or has done so in painfully ineffectual ways.

Banning chokeholds didn't solve the problem. Sensitivity training isn't doing the trick. And Biden saying that we need to teach cops to shoot non-lethally is kind of the ultimate display of why his faction's approach is useless at best.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Posts: 14114
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:36 am

Joohan wrote:
Gormwood wrote:It's Restoring Peace because it's happening to BLM and Antifa protestors. If it started happening to anti-maskers or MAGAs then they'd be outraged faster than you can say "Jade Helm".


Remember all the buildings the anti-maskers burned down, all the people they beat and killed in the streets, that time they destroyed a police station, or when they gripped a nation in fear of wanton mob violence being dished out indiscriminately?

Yeah, me neither.


Rioters are parasites on protest. But protesters can protect themselves from the start by not being anti-police. Those protesters get police protection from rioters. Protesters can restrain rioters and turn them over, safe in the assumption they will be arrested and charged.

Sure BLM could do a better job of distinguishing themselves from rioters. ID everyone for starters. Restrain any rioters attempting to flee after doing their crimes. Hand rioters over to police, or at least identify them to police.

Clearly that's harder from both sides (protester, police) when your protest begins and continues with a message of the police being racist, corrupt and generally not fit for purpose.

There's also the question of scale. BLM protests are big, and big protests are disorderly. Far easier for rioters to infiltrate, see?
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