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The events in Portland & the plan to take it nationwide

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Madisonianas
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Founded: May 01, 2020
Ex-Nation

End the Protests!

Postby Madisonianas » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:45 pm

The protests need to end. Call in the National Guard! They are attacking the federal court in Portland with IEDs!

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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:54 pm

Madisonianas wrote:The protests need to end. Call in the National Guard! They are attacking the federal court in Portland with IEDs!


*yawn*
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:55 pm

Ifreann wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
He is partially correct. The Geneva Conventions of 1925 outlaws the used of poisonous agents in war.

In 1997 they added riot control gas in warfare.

It is untrue that the entire objection to tear gas is that it violates the Geneva Conventions.


Well? It does for war. Police using it is a different matter.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:57 pm

Madisonianas wrote:The protests need to end. Call in the National Guard! They are attacking the federal court in Portland with IEDs!


"National Guard, reporting. I hear you have some Icy Energy Drinks that need defusing?"
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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:59 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It is untrue that the entire objection to tear gas is that it violates the Geneva Conventions.


Well? It does for war. Police using it is a different matter.

Yes, I am aware.
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Salus Maior
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:05 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It is untrue that the entire objection to tear gas is that it violates the Geneva Conventions.


Well? It does for war. Police using it is a different matter.


It's better than the bayonets and live ammunition that they used to put down riots.

Hundreds died during the civilian riots of the Civil War.
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New Rogernomics
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Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Rogernomics » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:20 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It is untrue that the entire objection to tear gas is that it violates the Geneva Conventions.


Well? It does for war. Police using it is a different matter.
I'd say the problem with the narratives flying around right now is that what is legally permissible is down to the laws in place. Legally, as is supported by numerous national laws and supreme court decisions, federal property cannot be taxed by state, and is effectively under the direct authority of the federal government, with state government having no jurisdiction at all over federal property.

So if Democrats want to stop the Trump administration having the authority to deploy federal officers, officials, or employees, to federal property they will have to amend the constitution and repeal numerous existing laws to allow states to override federal jurisdiction. Though, anyone with recollection of history would realize how important it was for the federal government to be able to use federal authority over that of the states, especially during the civil rights movement.

Practically applied, if a single protester damages or seeks to damage federal property they can be arrested by federal agents or employees as starting a riot, and that can be used to justify arresting the crowd in or outside the property or nearby people who may be suspected of having involvement in an attempt to damage federal property. Being arrested is different from being charged though, and as far as the law is concerned you are allowed to hold and arrest US citizens, as long as you release them in a reasonable amount of time if you aren't charging them.

So the best idea for Democrats...go out and vote in November, as if you want the federal government to not oppose damage to federal property i.e. statues, buildings, territory, then that order would have to come from the federal government itself AKA so Democrats would have to hold the Presidency.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Katganistan
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Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Katganistan » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:09 pm

Joohan wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Change does take time, but should it?

The rate of change looks as though existing cops are not being improved or reformed, only that new cops are being inducted into a better culture while bad old cops are gradually retiring.

If that's so, the process could be greatly speeded up by inducting a lot of new cops (perhaps with promise of higher wages in future), booting out senior cops on the least suspicion of having been corrupt or covering up brutal conduct of the cops under them, and replacing them with the next down in rank. It would be generational change, but more swiftly than just waiting for retirements.

Mind you, I am biased by distrust of anyone in authority. Commanders who covered up brutality are worse than the junior cops who committed it ... like that.


It absolutely should take time. We must discern good ideas and practices from bad ones, before comit to an idea whole sale - lest our solution cause more issues than the problem.

So how many years should people wait? Last I heard the Civil Rights Movement started in the 1960s, yet people of color are still discriminated against and are brutalized by law enforcement more often than caucasians.

It's like every time there is a mass shooting and some politician says "Now is not the time to bring up gun control".

So when?

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Trollgaard
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Trollgaard » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:12 pm

Kowani wrote:Kate Brown, the governor of Oregon, has just announced a Phased withdrawal of federal troops.


Heard an interview with an exec in homeland security....they aren't going anywhere. The feds are within their rights. Oregon politicians are basically pulling publicity stunts.

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Kowani
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Posts: 24492
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:04 pm

Trollgaard wrote:
Kowani wrote:Kate Brown, the governor of Oregon, has just announced a Phased withdrawal of federal troops.


Heard an interview with an exec in homeland security....they aren't going anywhere. The feds are within their rights. Oregon politicians are basically pulling publicity stunts.

“After discussions with the Vice President and administration officials this week, the federal government has agreed to my demand and will withdraw these officers from Portland.”
Now, if you want to assert she’s lying, that’s totally fine, but then you’ll need proof. Or failing that, a very good reason.
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Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

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Trollgaard
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Founded: Mar 01, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Trollgaard » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:13 pm

Kowani wrote:
Trollgaard wrote:
Heard an interview with an exec in homeland security....they aren't going anywhere. The feds are within their rights. Oregon politicians are basically pulling publicity stunts.

“After discussions with the Vice President and administration officials this week, the federal government has agreed to my demand and will withdraw these officers from Portland.”
Now, if you want to assert she’s lying, that’s totally fine, but then you’ll need proof. Or failing that, a very good reason.


Strange. That is literally opposite of what I heard on the radio tonight.
Last edited by Trollgaard on Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kowani
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Posts: 24492
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:24 pm

Trollgaard wrote:
Kowani wrote:“After discussions with the Vice President and administration officials this week, the federal government has agreed to my demand and will withdraw these officers from Portland.”
Now, if you want to assert she’s lying, that’s totally fine, but then you’ll need proof. Or failing that, a very good reason.


Strange. That is literally opposite of what I heard on the radio tonight.

Oh, that’s interesting.
Talking out of both sides of her mouth, perhaps?
Spanish-American Atheist.
“The time has come to call evil out as evil, and we shall not apologize for naming brutality.”
NSG's resident data enthusiast.
Ni dios, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo


Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

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Purpelia
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Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:40 pm

Katganistan wrote:So how many years should people wait? Last I heard the Civil Rights Movement started in the 1960s, yet people of color are still discriminated against and are brutalized by law enforcement more often than caucasians.

It's like every time there is a mass shooting and some politician says "Now is not the time to bring up gun control".

So when?

I am not familiar with american politics enough to say but it is is my understanding that the protesting stopped in the 60's and only picked up now with a big pause in the middle. That is NOT the definition of something that's been going.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Alma Mater
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Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:45 pm

Joohan wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
So people should just be patient until they stop getting killed ?

Yeah, no. That is an utterly disgusting point of view.


What's disgusting is killing innocents and leaving communities in destitution because you dodnt get your way fast enough.


Well, that kinda depends on what "getting your way" and "fast enough" are, does it not ?

Not getting your burger within ten seconds after asking for it ? Yeah, violence bad.
Being systematically opressed and discriminated against for over 400 years and being told you should be more patient while the other party keeps shooting your kin... well, no. Heck, those ten second from the previous example are too long then.
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Ifreann
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:26 am

Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:30 am



That would be straightforward as a condition of bail, I think. Did these people have their hearing before a judge though?
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Soiled fruit roll ups
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Founded: Jun 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Soiled fruit roll ups » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:48 am

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Militarist Caxico
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Posts: 8
Founded: Jul 25, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Militarist Caxico » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:07 am


How’s that good? Peaceful assembly is guaranteed by the first amendment, and cops shouldn’t be trying to take that away.
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Shazbotdom
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Founded: Sep 28, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Shazbotdom » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:07 am

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:12 am

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Ifreann
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:18 am

Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Mask Wearing That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
He/Him

You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Shazbotdom
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Founded: Sep 28, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Shazbotdom » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:20 am

Ifreann wrote:
Shazbotdom wrote:I smell a SCOTUS Case...

Does seem a bit on the illegal side.

Imagine the reasoning that the Federal Government would use to justify this. And the possible abuses, later on, to try and silence political opponents.
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Nuroblav
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Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:24 am


Image


In all seriousness though, this is gonna tough for them to justify without looking like suppressors, which seems to be the case anyway.
Madisonianas wrote:The protests need to end. Call in the National Guard! They are attacking the federal court in Portland with IEDs!

lol
Last edited by Nuroblav on Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:27 am

Shazbotdom wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Does seem a bit on the illegal side.

Imagine the reasoning that the Federal Government would use to justify this. And the possible abuses, later on, to try and silence political opponents.


Assembly is specifically protected, that seems the most direct way to strike down the ban.

Restricting a political opponent from speaking in public by banning them from assemblies, however, wouldn't do much at all to limit their free speech. There are so many other channels for speech now.
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Shazbotdom
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Founded: Sep 28, 2004
Anarchy

Postby Shazbotdom » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:31 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Shazbotdom wrote:Imagine the reasoning that the Federal Government would use to justify this. And the possible abuses, later on, to try and silence political opponents.


Assembly is specifically protected, that seems the most direct way to strike down the ban.

Restricting a political opponent from speaking in public by banning them from assemblies, however, wouldn't do much at all to limit their free speech. There are so many other channels for speech now.


True, but I was thinking in the terms of protests and peaceful assembly, sometimes a political opponent can use a peaceful protest as a medium to spread their ideology. Wouldn't banning them from a peaceful protest be in violation of the 1st? I honestly think that it would be.
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