Coronavirus Thread V: A Shot in the Arm (READ OP)

[San Lumen]

Six months is February. Why can’t they cut some corners with the vaccine? It clearly works so why do all the trials?

Small clinical trials might not pick up all the possible side effects. A cure for CoVid is after all useless if it puts half of the people inoculated into cardiac arrest. This is pretty basic science right here. Make sure experiments are repeatable, make sure you have a representative sample size that is actually representative.

It’s extremely doubtful that would happen

[Post War America]

Small clinical trials might not pick up all the possible side effects. A cure for CoVid is after all useless if it puts half of the people inoculated into cardiac arrest. This is pretty basic science right here. Make sure experiments are repeatable, make sure you have a representative sample size that is actually representative.

It’s extremely doubtful that would happen

Sure, but that's only a safe assumption because we do extensive clinical trials. Back in the day snake oil was the norm, and not reliable vaccines.

[Shrillland]

Small clinical trials might not pick up all the possible side effects. A cure for CoVid is after all useless if it puts half of the people inoculated into cardiac arrest. This is pretty basic science right here. Make sure experiments are repeatable, make sure you have a representative sample size that is actually representative.

It’s extremely doubtful that would happen

Not exactly. We cut corners with the first Polio vaccine, and a lot of people got sick and died that didn't need to for about two years before the vaccine we know today was perfected. Cutting corners means more unnecessary deaths, and even one is one too many in the field of medicine.

[Genivaria]

Not for another 6-9 months, no. By that time, however, the vaccines will likely be widely available and the virus will be the problem of the anti-vax morons.

Six months is February. Why can’t they cut some corners with the vaccine? It clearly works so why do all the trials?

Fucking christ Lumen, you want them to cut corners with a VACCINE!?
Yes because when was the last time ANYTHING ever went wrong because someone cut corners?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

It’s extremely doubtful that would happen

Not exactly. We cut corners with the first Polio vaccine, and a lot of people got sick and died that didn't need to for about two years before the vaccine we know today was perfected. Cutting corners means more unnecessary deaths, and even one is one too many in the field of medicine.

I'm not sure I agree with that attitude. Shouldn't it be a balance between dying without the vaccine, and dying from the vaccine? Apply a good margin of error like two times (twice as likely to die from the disease as from side-effects) and it should be OK.

A vaccine would still have to be quite safe to pass that test for covid-19. Since it's unlikely to kill the average person. But perhaps it could be used on those particularly likely to die from covid, if they are informed and consent of course, despite a level of risk in the vaccine which would be unacceptable for an average adult.

[CoraSpia]

So, it turns out covid is stopping from people from going to hospital, and it's killing them. Another win for the hysteria?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -19-threat

[Juristonia]

Not for another 6-9 months, no. By that time, however, the vaccines will likely be widely available and the virus will be the problem of the anti-vax morons.

Six months is February. Why can’t they cut some corners with the vaccine? It clearly works so why do all the trials?

Because they're not fucking idiots, San.
As has been explained to you several times already.
Cutting corners on vaccines is something fucking idiots used to do before they realised that being fucking idiots was actually a really bad idea and they stopped being fucking idiots.

[The Alma Mater]

Six months is February. Why can’t they cut some corners with the vaccine? It clearly works so why do all the trials?

Because they're not fucking idiots, San.
As has been explained to you several times already.
Cutting corners on vaccines is something fucking idiots used to do before they realised that being fucking idiots was actually a really bad idea and they stopped being fucking idiots.

So when will Trump do it ?

[Juristonia]

So when will Trump do it ?

I can't even joke that it's probably soon, because probably soon.

[The Alma Mater]

So when will Trump do it ?

I can't even joke that it's probably soon, because probably soon.

I can even guess "before the election".

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I can't even joke that it's probably soon, because probably soon.

I can even guess "before the election".

There is absolutely no way in hell I am getting that vaccine if it comes out before the election. They would have to rush it through so quick, like no way.

[Shrillland]

Not exactly. We cut corners with the first Polio vaccine, and a lot of people got sick and died that didn't need to for about two years before the vaccine we know today was perfected. Cutting corners means more unnecessary deaths, and even one is one too many in the field of medicine.

I'm not sure I agree with that attitude. Shouldn't it be a balance between dying without the vaccine, and dying from the vaccine? Apply a good margin of error like two times (twice as likely to die from the disease as from side-effects) and it should be OK.

A vaccine would still have to be quite safe to pass that test for covid-19. Since it's unlikely to kill the average person. But perhaps it could be used on those particularly likely to die from covid, if they are informed and consent of course, despite a level of risk in the vaccine which would be unacceptable for an average adult.

Oh, certainly. Admittedly, I was being a little more rhetorical. I just meant that cutting corners could mean far more deaths than if they made sure everything was as safe as it could be.

[Ghost Land]

So, it turns out covid is stopping from people from going to hospital, and it's killing them. Another win for the hysteria?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -19-threat

Exactly. It's because we've been told not to seek medical care unless it's COVID.

I can even guess "before the election".

There is absolutely no way in hell I am getting that vaccine if it comes out before the election. They would have to rush it through so quick, like no way.

Me either. I'm at this point skeptical of any COVID vaccine period.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I'm not sure I agree with that attitude. Shouldn't it be a balance between dying without the vaccine, and dying from the vaccine? Apply a good margin of error like two times (twice as likely to die from the disease as from side-effects) and it should be OK.

A vaccine would still have to be quite safe to pass that test for covid-19. Since it's unlikely to kill the average person. But perhaps it could be used on those particularly likely to die from covid, if they are informed and consent of course, despite a level of risk in the vaccine which would be unacceptable for an average adult.

Oh, certainly. Admittedly, I was being a little more rhetorical. I just meant that cutting corners could mean far more deaths than if they made sure everything was as safe as it could be.

The (sometimes lethal) side effects might be worse for a different demographic, than the virus is. Making another moral dilemma: is it OK to kill one 20 year old, to save the lives of two 80+ year olds? If this was on the table, I'd say no, but make it 5 oldsters and I'd probably say yes.

1:5 is still way too high a kill/save ratio for a publicly mandated vaccine. I do think people should be allowed to choose such a vaccination for themselves. Doctors seem to think the patient could never be well enough informed, if they're choosing a treatment that might kill them, but I find it overbearing. People take risks, including with their lives, and risk as well as reward are fundamental to freedom. If the doctor feels the patient isn't listening and thus is not properly informed, refuse the vaccine. If the patient is aware of the risks (and their proportion to benefits for themselves and others) then give them the vaccine.

[Salandriagado]

Does anyone wonder if Elearning (or whatever) will be the future of education?

We've just had a months-long demonstration of exactly how much of a trash fire it is, so no.

[Salandriagado]

Plus how are parents supposed to work if their children are elearning?

I grew up in the 1980's I was pretty much left alone from the age of 8.

Except for the large chunks of time when you were in school being forced to learn. That simply isn't possible remotely.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

So, it turns out covid is stopping from people from going to hospital, and it's killing them. Another win for the hysteria?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -19-threat

Exactly. It's because we've been told not to seek medical care unless it's COVID.

Another factor might be people with worrying symptoms they know are not COVID ... avoiding the hospital because they think there will be a lot of COVID there. Like "I'm sick already, the last thing I need is COVID too".

[Salandriagado]

...Guess we'll have to rebuild the economy from the ground up then. Perhaps create something that isn't so reliant on the constant consumption of goods. It'll be less ruinous in the long run.

Or perhaps we could can the hysterics about the apocalypse of people not having massive parties.

If it were only that simple. Your agenda isn’t going to make things better. It will cause untold suffering worse than any pandemic. It’s a good thing your not a mayor or governor

False.

[Salandriagado]

My county has instituted fines for not obeying the mask orders, which while understandable considering the attitudes I've seen around here, is slightly concerning to me.

I've been taking daily walks, and although I usually don't wear my mask during them, I choose areas where there are both few people and a lot of room to maneuver when someone does happen to show up, although I still carry a mask with me if needed.

Now I'm wondering if I should just wear it full-time even when literally nobody is in sight to avoid someone preemptively reporting me from a window.

Nobody's going to bother following those up, surely?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Does anyone wonder if Elearning (or whatever) will be the future of education?

We've just had a months-long demonstration of exactly how much of a trash fire it is, so no.

It's no good for the small kids, not least because it requires 20+ parents to do supervision 1 teacher could be doing.
I do think it could be used for some of the year 10 (up) students. Study from home, but if you're not doing well it's back to school for you.

[Salandriagado]

Not for another 6-9 months, no. By that time, however, the vaccines will likely be widely available and the virus will be the problem of the anti-vax morons.

Six months is February. Why can’t they cut some corners with the vaccine? It clearly works so why do all the trials?

Because it doesn't "clearly work". We, in fact, have essentially no idea whether it will turn out to work or not, because we literally haven't tested that yet. We've got some guesses, but nothing beyond that. That's what the trial is for.

[Salandriagado]

So, it turns out covid is stopping from people from going to hospital, and it's killing them. Another win for the hysteria?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the ... -19-threat

Exactly. It's because we've been told not to seek medical care unless it's COVID.

Nope: that report is from the UK, where people have been actively encouraged to seek medical care.

[Salandriagado]

We've just had a months-long demonstration of exactly how much of a trash fire it is, so no.

It's no good for the small kids, not least because it requires 20+ parents to do supervision 1 teacher could be doing.
I do think it could be used for some of the year 10 (up) students.

It's been absolutely and completely disasterous for all ages. Essentially zero learning has happened since March, even for the tiny minority that have engaged with the material being provided.

Study from home, but if you're not doing well it's back to school for you.

And then they will deliberately do badly to get a chance to be back in a classroom fucking around with their mates instead of being stuck at home.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Exactly. It's because we've been told not to seek medical care unless it's COVID.

Nope: that report is from the UK, where people have been actively encouraged to seek medical care.

In Australia, most discretionary surgery was cancelled early on. Though the government explained it was to free up doctors and wards and equipment that might be needed later, a lot of people didn't listen to that and took it as a sign that hospitals were already at full capacity.

Government could have spent more on ads to inform the public, but I'm not sure it would really help. A lot of people just take a pessimistic view of any government service (hospitals are almost all government owned), and they want to believe that the system is collapsing under the load. If it was just them that bore the brunt of their own ignorance I guess that would be fair, but it's also family members on whose behalf they make the decision to not even call the nearest hospital and ask.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Study from home, but if you're not doing well it's back to school for you.

And then they will deliberately do badly to get a chance to be back in a classroom fucking around with their mates instead of being stuck at home.

Your generalization of what school kids are like doesn't cover my own case. I would have gladly read a pile of books at home instead of going into school every day. Perhaps after a while I'd have gone for a bit of both, 3 days a week at school perhaps. "Fucking around with my mates" wasn't a huge deal to me, it was always under the eye of someone, teachers, or other kids, and inherently less fun than fucking around on the weekend.

Unwisely I generalized from my own case, and thought most high school students would prefer to study from home. Particularly if they didn't really have to study. Which is why I said high school kids should have the option to study from home, but the option should be withdrawn if they're wasting time and failing their courses.