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Coronavirus Thread V: A Shot in the Arm (READ OP)

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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:13 pm

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Alot of people dont wanna admit that America fucked up, and most of these covid deaths were preventable.

The reason I brought up the MERS experience and technology is because when South Korea was preparing a pandemic response system, Trump is doing the opposite.

Vanity Fair wrote:In the summer of 2018, on John Bolton’s watch, the team Cameron once ran was one of three directorates merged into one amid an overhaul and streamlining of Donald Trump’s National Security Council. And the position Monaco previously held, homeland-security adviser, was downgraded, stripped of its authority to convene the cabinet.

Obama’s team never faced a crisis as serious as the novel coronavirus, a truly unprecedented challenge. But officials who worked on past crises and experts on pandemic response believe that Trump’s dismissal—and in some aspects, wholesale discarding—of the Obama administration’s preparedness structures and principles, and the current administration’s ideas about government—that states could and should take take responsibility, that business could be more effective than government at solving problems at this scale—have left them dangerously unprepared.

“What the administration lacked in February, and still lacks today is articulating an overall strategy for managing this crisis,” a former administration official told me. “There’s a framework in place, we understand what authorities and roles and responsibilities everybody across government has at their disposal to be able to address an emergency. But when you walk through crisis management at a presidential level, the job of the president, first and foremost, is to develop and articulate the end state that we are trying to get to.”

Trump has yet to do this. “President Trump has, throughout this, seemed a little schizophrenic about his role,” Jeremy Konyndyk, a senior policy fellow at the Center for Global Development who ran USAID’s Office of U.S. Foreign Disaster Assistance in the Obama administration, told me. “On the one hand, he clearly wants all the credit for it when things go right. On the other hand, he has furiously attempted to avoid having to take ownership for the success of the effort…he wants the credit without the accountability.”

The biggest difference between Obama’s approach and Trump has to do with science. “Traditionally, we have had a situation where the response is always scientifically, technically proven,” says a former government official. “Of course there are political considerations. But the options that are presented are fundamentally sound from a scientific perspective.”

In the current situation, the president decides which scientists and governmental organizations are listened to. “We’re seeing that institutions like the FDA and the CDC have been curtailed; their ability to do the right thing has been curtailed,” this person added, noting Food and Drug Administration commissioner Stephen Hahn’s subtle hedge when asked on CNN about Trump’s suggestion that people inject themselves with disinfectants to fight COVID-19. “I certainly wouldn’t recommend the internal ingestion of a disinfectant,” Hahn, a member of the White House coronavirus task force, said.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanity ... sponse/amp

In the end, it is proven that Trump's policy successfully helped both China and the virus to push their goal into realization. Way to go. And don't forget that under Trump's administration, two thirds of the small business covid relief money hilariously flowed to China.
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Solvokina
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Postby Solvokina » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:21 pm

Some dumbcunt Victorian decides to jump the border into my state and infected several people near my suburb
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:00 pm

Solvokina wrote:Some dumbcunt Victorian decides to jump the border into my state and infected several people near my suburb

A Victorian? That'd make them at least...120 years old?
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Alcala-Cordel
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Postby Alcala-Cordel » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:05 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Solvokina wrote:Some dumbcunt Victorian decides to jump the border into my state and infected several people near my suburb

A Victorian? That'd make them at least...120 years old?

Talk about an at-risk age group. If you're 120, you need to take this pandemic especially seriously instead of going through random suburbs in Australia.


Victoria's a state in Australia I think.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:17 pm

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:A Victorian? That'd make them at least...120 years old?

Talk about an at-risk age group. If you're 120, you need to take this pandemic especially seriously instead of going through random suburbs in Australia.


Victoria's a state in Australia I think.

Yes I know, it was intended as a joke.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:53 pm

Apparently there is a really big Covid cluster near my area and it ravaged an army base of all places. While it makes containment a little bit easier, it's still a hilarious major embarrassment.
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Solvokina
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Postby Solvokina » Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:53 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Solvokina wrote:Some dumbcunt Victorian decides to jump the border into my state and infected several people near my suburb

A Victorian? That'd make them at least...120 years old?

Yes. And yes I do call the 1800s the Victorian Era
Last edited by Solvokina on Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:35 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Bank vaults are protected against bad guys with guns and explosives.
Banks have put quite a bit of time and money into making them hard to break into.

Scientists I expect mostly rely on security by obscurity. There will be a vial with WARNING: Smallpox inside a locked drawer of a locked vault (tho not a real hardass vault like a bank has) but the real smallpox will be marked "WARNING: Unknown pathogen D62" in a locked drawer labelled Pending Secure Destruction.


Eh? Your assumption is rather off. Try walking into a bioweapons facility (I mention it as smallpox is basically a bioweapon now). You can't. Try to sneak in; you will be caught and prosecuted. Only certain people have access to materials. You can't simply carry them out. There are procedures.

The same with bioresearch. There are levels for labs and security is one areas measured. Joebob the janitor will not have access and "clean up these vials"


None of that addresses anything I wrote. Try again?

Bank vaults are protected against bad guys with guns and explosives.
Banks have put quite a bit of time and money into making them hard to break into.

Are the 2 biolabs where smallpox is still (allegedly) stored, as secure against guns, explosives and plasma torches, as a major bank vault is?
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:40 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Eh? Your assumption is rather off. Try walking into a bioweapons facility (I mention it as smallpox is basically a bioweapon now). You can't. Try to sneak in; you will be caught and prosecuted. Only certain people have access to materials. You can't simply carry them out. There are procedures.

The same with bioresearch. There are levels for labs and security is one areas measured. Joebob the janitor will not have access and "clean up these vials"


None of that addresses anything I wrote. Try again?

Bank vaults are protected against bad guys with guns and explosives.
Banks have put quite a bit of time and money into making them hard to break into.

Are the 2 biolabs where smallpox is still (allegedly) stored, as secure against guns, explosives and plasma torches, as a major bank vault is?


Actually you mentioned security was by obscurity.

Standard bank vault doesn’t do much against a contagion.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:52 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
None of that addresses anything I wrote. Try again?

Bank vaults are protected against bad guys with guns and explosives.
Banks have put quite a bit of time and money into making them hard to break into.

Are the 2 biolabs where smallpox is still (allegedly) stored, as secure against guns, explosives and plasma torches, as a major bank vault is?


Actually you mentioned security was by obscurity.

Standard bank vault doesn’t do much against a contagion.


Still missing the point. If it stays in its vial (and why shouldn't it) and the vial is in some kind of protective casket that is hard to open, then the greatest risk of it escaping to the wild would be deliberate theft. Using weapons and tools, easily affordable to a terrorist group or state actor.

Do bioweapons facilities have that kind of physical security? Are they in the middle of a major city, nearby to police, and with a vault to slow down bad guys for long enough for massive numbers of police and specialists to arrive? If not, why not?

Security by obscurity is under-rated in my opinion. Certainly it's bad as the only method of security, but there is no method which is not also enhanced by a layer of obscurity. For instance, having to break into half the locked cabinets inside a vault, to have a 50% chance of finding the smallpox, will at least slow down the robbers.
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Tourais
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Postby Tourais » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:19 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
You said yourself that it would change life as we know it, if the Yellowstone Caldera blows.

It would be a massive climate event which would screw everyone everywhere. Not just America.

Though a disclaimer: the North and South hemispheres are not that well connected atmospherically. South America and Australia wouldn't be as much affected. Seeing you all starve would be distressing, but the irony of the driest inhabited continent becoming the world's bread-basket would give me some satisfaction. Bags of wheat being distributed off the back of lorries, with "G'day from Straya" printed on them ...

If $150 billion is too much for your poor taxpayers, perhaps you could call out for international donations? It's in everyone's interest that Yellowstone doesn't go up, and that includes any half-baked attempts to cool it down. It's a big deal. You want to get it right first time.


I don't think humans should be interfering with natural processes.

...?
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Shanghai industrial complex
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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:03 am

San Lumen wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
You said yourself that it would change life as we know it, if the Yellowstone Caldera blows.

It would be a massive climate event which would screw everyone everywhere. Not just America.

Though a disclaimer: the North and South hemispheres are not that well connected atmospherically. South America and Australia wouldn't be as much affected. Seeing you all starve would be distressing, but the irony of the driest inhabited continent becoming the world's bread-basket would give me some satisfaction. Bags of wheat being distributed off the back of lorries, with "G'day from Straya" printed on them ...

If $150 billion is too much for your poor taxpayers, perhaps you could call out for international donations? It's in everyone's interest that Yellowstone doesn't go up, and that includes any half-baked attempts to cool it down. It's a big deal. You want to get it right first time.


I don't think humans should be interfering with natural processes.

If Yellowstone super volcano, you will be blown up with half the United States.It's a super volcano,not volcano.Maybe it will bring another Siberian trap
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:10 am

San Lumen wrote:
Post War America wrote:
Researching the virus, and how it works is still useful, as is keeping it around in the event of a related virus beginning to spread. It'd likely be much easier to synthesize a vaccine that way. Otherwise, what's happening now, cakewalk compared to a smallpox relative spreading around the globe.


Highly unlikely a new strain would emerge after decades of no transmission


Smallpox still has living relatives. They are not as deadly as smallpox was, but they do still exist and some of them are capable of infecting humans.
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:14 am

San Lumen wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
You said yourself that it would change life as we know it, if the Yellowstone Caldera blows.

It would be a massive climate event which would screw everyone everywhere. Not just America.

Though a disclaimer: the North and South hemispheres are not that well connected atmospherically. South America and Australia wouldn't be as much affected. Seeing you all starve would be distressing, but the irony of the driest inhabited continent becoming the world's bread-basket would give me some satisfaction. Bags of wheat being distributed off the back of lorries, with "G'day from Straya" printed on them ...

If $150 billion is too much for your poor taxpayers, perhaps you could call out for international donations? It's in everyone's interest that Yellowstone doesn't go up, and that includes any half-baked attempts to cool it down. It's a big deal. You want to get it right first time.


I don't think humans should be interfering with natural processes.

If it’s to stop death and destruction then why the hell not?
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:03 am

I wonder if, after a certsin period of time, if we maintained social distancing, if we could kill off all colds and flus. Not that we should, but I wonder if we could
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:30 am

Australian rePublic wrote:I wonder if, after a certsin period of time, if we maintained social distancing, if we could kill off all colds and flus. Not that we should, but I wonder if we could


You could reduce them, but no, it would not wipe them all out. The COVID response appears to be reducing the spread of flu, but it will not die out because it can infect animals and spread back to humans.

You might wipe out some particular strains, but you would not wipe out all colds and flus. Kind of like the smallpox vaccine wiped out smallpox, but it did not wipe out the other pox viruses that can spread across species between humans and animals.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:41 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As a potential bioweapon and for research.

Because making huge amounts of the vaccine for a disease that doesn't infect anyone is not a very good use of resources.


Making it isn't actually the issue (we do make large amounts of it, and keep it ready in case we need it to deal with a new outbreak from somewhere). It's just that actually issuing it puts people at more risk than not doing so.

Makes sense.


Salandriagado wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Yeah, well I'd like the samples they're retaining to be somewhere really secure. Perhaps a bank vault.


The samples are being kept in facilities that are many, many times more secure than any bank vault.

I'm reminded of the What If XKCD entry about swimming in a spent nuclear fuel pool.
What if I took a swim in a typical spent nuclear fuel pool? Would I need to dive to actually experience a fatal amount of radiation? How long could I stay safely at the surface?

—Jonathan Bastien-Filiatrault

Assuming you’re a reasonably good swimmer, you could probably survive treading water anywhere from 10 to 40 hours. At that point, you would black out from fatigue and drown. This is also true for a pool without nuclear fuel in the bottom.

[...]

So, as far as swimming safety goes, the bottom line is that you’d probably be ok, as long as you didn’t dive to the bottom or pick up anything strange.

But just to be sure, I got in touch with a friend of mine who works at a research reactor, and asked him what he thought would happen to you if you tried to swim in their radiation containment pool.

“In our reactor?” He thought about it for a moment. “You’d die pretty quickly, before reaching the water, from gunshot wounds.”

Turns out that the people who hire scientists to work on dangerous science, also hire armed security.
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:45 am

USS Monitor wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Highly unlikely a new strain would emerge after decades of no transmission


Smallpox still has living relatives. They are not as deadly as smallpox was, but they do still exist and some of them are capable of infecting humans.


You're posting with the wrong account. What would a 19th Century Iron Steamship know about smallpox?
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Nobel Hobos 2
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:01 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Yeah, well I'd like the samples they're retaining to be somewhere really secure. Perhaps a bank vault.


The samples are being kept in facilities that are many, many times more secure than any bank vault.


Oh really. So if a team of twelve heavily armed people take out all the security guards and chase away the other staff, then their four explosives experts break into the sample storage room (which locked automatically when the alarms were triggered), then they break into the 12 caskets of highest security (which are of course too heavy for people to carry, I'm sure you thought of that) and deliver twelve samples that may or may-not be smallpox to the ringleader. And then the ringleader distributes the 12 vials to her most trusted henchpeople, who run out to their cars and drive off in different directions.

Bear in mind that every one of them is a religiously dedicated badass motherfucker who is prepared to die before being captured!

Now compare to a bank vault in the middle of a city. Built with centuries of experience in deterring or at least delaying badass motherfuckers from stealing the gold and jewels and cash therein. With police stations within a few kilometres in any direction. Specialist units, with big guns that can blow right through body armor, not that far away.

As a scientist (or aligned type) I ask you to consider which is more trust-worthy. The biologist's "high security" facility which has never been tested against badass motherfuckers, or the banker's "high security" facility which is the product of generations of testing against essentially the same kind of badass motherfuckers?
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:58 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:
Eh? Your assumption is rather off. Try walking into a bioweapons facility (I mention it as smallpox is basically a bioweapon now). You can't. Try to sneak in; you will be caught and prosecuted. Only certain people have access to materials. You can't simply carry them out. There are procedures.

The same with bioresearch. There are levels for labs and security is one areas measured. Joebob the janitor will not have access and "clean up these vials"


None of that addresses anything I wrote. Try again?

Bank vaults are protected against bad guys with guns and explosives.
Banks have put quite a bit of time and money into making them hard to break into.

Are the 2 biolabs where smallpox is still (allegedly) stored, as secure against guns, explosives and plasma torches, as a major bank vault is?


Way more so.
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Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:01 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
The samples are being kept in facilities that are many, many times more secure than any bank vault.


Oh really. So if a team of twelve heavily armed people take out all the security guards and chase away the other staff, then their four explosives experts break into the sample storage room (which locked automatically when the alarms were triggered), then they break into the 12 caskets of highest security (which are of course too heavy for people to carry, I'm sure you thought of that) and deliver twelve samples that may or may-not be smallpox to the ringleader. And then the ringleader distributes the 12 vials to her most trusted henchpeople, who run out to their cars and drive off in different directions.

Bear in mind that every one of them is a religiously dedicated badass motherfucker who is prepared to die before being captured!

Now compare to a bank vault in the middle of a city. Built with centuries of experience in deterring or at least delaying badass motherfuckers from stealing the gold and jewels and cash therein. With police stations within a few kilometres in any direction. Specialist units, with big guns that can blow right through body armor, not that far away.

As a scientist (or aligned type) I ask you to consider which is more trust-worthy. The biologist's "high security" facility which has never been tested against badass motherfuckers, or the banker's "high security" facility which is the product of generations of testing against essentially the same kind of badass motherfuckers?


The biologist's, every single time. Note that banks do get successfully robbed. Despite decades of being a publicly-announced targets for every terrorist group and insane government in the world, neither of those labs has ever had anybody get anywhere near close. The labs have on-site military presences that vastly outgun anything any bank could expect to turn up in police support and many, many more layers of security.

So yes, I'll keep on trusting the system that's literally never failed over the one that fails regularly.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:08 am

There's also the fact that biological weapons are kind of terroristic kryptonite.

You can't control viruses. You unleash it, what is stopping you infecting yourself or your allies?

What makes terrorist cells effective is the sympathy of a portion of the public and your ability to justify yourself to them. The most powerful terrorist organizations have sympathizers all over the world, including some governments.

It's very easy to fuck up a bio-bomb... Case in point, if the Coronavirus was an attempt at bio-terrorism, it fucked up massively because it infected the entire planet. It's why nobody has even tried to falsely claim responsibility for it. It's one thing to kill 1,400 innocent Americans, it's entirely another to kill 700,000 random people for no good reason.
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Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:11 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Oh really. So if a team of twelve heavily armed people take out all the security guards and chase away the other staff, then their four explosives experts break into the sample storage room (which locked automatically when the alarms were triggered), then they break into the 12 caskets of highest security (which are of course too heavy for people to carry, I'm sure you thought of that) and deliver twelve samples that may or may-not be smallpox to the ringleader. And then the ringleader distributes the 12 vials to her most trusted henchpeople, who run out to their cars and drive off in different directions.

Bear in mind that every one of them is a religiously dedicated badass motherfucker who is prepared to die before being captured!

Now compare to a bank vault in the middle of a city. Built with centuries of experience in deterring or at least delaying badass motherfuckers from stealing the gold and jewels and cash therein. With police stations within a few kilometres in any direction. Specialist units, with big guns that can blow right through body armor, not that far away.

As a scientist (or aligned type) I ask you to consider which is more trust-worthy. The biologist's "high security" facility which has never been tested against badass motherfuckers, or the banker's "high security" facility which is the product of generations of testing against essentially the same kind of badass motherfuckers?


The biologist's, every single time. Note that banks do get successfully robbed. Despite decades of being a publicly-announced targets for every terrorist group and insane government in the world, neither of those labs has ever had anybody get anywhere near close. The labs have on-site military presences that vastly outgun anything any bank could expect to turn up in police support and many, many more layers of security.

So yes, I'll keep on trusting the system that's literally never failed over the one that fails regularly.

I would just like to point out that strong-armed bank robbery is like the least successful crime in the United States.

Also, anyone is insane to think that raiding a high security facility that does something like viruses wouldn't bring down the attention of a whole slew of Federal agencies and very, very capable units.
Last edited by Organized States on Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
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The Alma Mater
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25619
Founded: May 23, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:16 am

Organized States wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
The biologist's, every single time. Note that banks do get successfully robbed. Despite decades of being a publicly-announced targets for every terrorist group and insane government in the world, neither of those labs has ever had anybody get anywhere near close. The labs have on-site military presences that vastly outgun anything any bank could expect to turn up in police support and many, many more layers of security.

So yes, I'll keep on trusting the system that's literally never failed over the one that fails regularly.

I would just like to point out that strong-armed bank robbery is like the least successful crime in the United States.


You still have 2700 of them per year according to the FBI.
That is more than bio-robbings.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
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Organized States
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8426
Founded: Apr 26, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Organized States » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:21 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Organized States wrote:I would just like to point out that strong-armed bank robbery is like the least successful crime in the United States.


You still have 2700 of them per year according to the FBI.
That is more than bio-robbings.

Indeed, and it is absurdly difficult to avoid the resources of the Federal Government when planning and executing things like Bank Robberies and Bio-robberies.
Thank God for OS!- Deian
"In the old days, the navigators used magic to make themselves strong, but now, nothing; they just pray. Before they leave and at sea, they pray. But I, I make myself strong by thinking—just by thinking! I make myself strong because I despise cowardice. Too many men are afraid of the sea. But I am a navigator."-Mau Piailug
"I regret that I have only one life to give to my island." -Ricardo Bordallo, 2nd Governor of Guam
"Both are voyages of exploration. Hōkūle‘a is in the past, Columbia is in the future." -Colonel Charles L. Veach, USAF, Astronaut and Navigation Enthusiast

Pacific Islander-American (proud member of the 0.5%), Officer to be

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