Is it time for Europe to unite?

[The Alma Mater]

I don't engage in debate to get informed, I engage in debate to present my viewpoint as correct and try to convince others of that. Erdogan is an imperialist para-fascist and he should be given the Saddam treatment.

That's cute.

You haven't rebutted any of my points, especially regarding your utter and sheer lack of knowledge regarding Turkey, especially its culture and worldview.

So, again, buzzwords. Again, useless.

To be fair, why should people assume that the Turks living next door are vastly different from the ones in Turkey, or that Erdogan is not as retarded as he seems when one listens to his speeches ?
You are ofc right that it is far more complex; but why should people care ?

[Vistulange]

That's cute.

You haven't rebutted any of my points, especially regarding your utter and sheer lack of knowledge regarding Turkey, especially its culture and worldview.

So, again, buzzwords. Again, useless.

To be fair, why should people assume that the Turks living next door are vastly different from the ones in Turkey, or that Erdogan is not as retarded as he seems when one listens to his speeches ?
You are ofc right that it is far more complex; but why should people care ?

They may very well may not care, true!

But if those people then spout complete bullshit, I'll call them out on it. It's their choice to not care, just as it is my choice to call people out on bullshit.

[Ansarre]

Actually Europe is distinct from Asia, anyone with a cursory knowledge of geography knows this. The Caucasus mountains, the Ural mountains, and the Dardanelles are our natural geographic boundaries. I am not being "Turkophobic" but Turkish people have a radically different set of cultural values, history, and worldview from Europeans. Controlling part of Thrace doesn't make you a European people.

And just what exactly are European values? Different parts of the EU have radically different cultural values in regards to absolutely everything.

Now, I am not saying that there are not some universal constants to be had. But to call these sufficient for an "European" identity is in my view problematic at best.

Europe's people as a whole value political and social freedom, the rule of law, democracy, free enterprise, and we have a respect and love for our cultures. There is disagreement on some moral issues yes, but just as there is in all countries! In fact, freedom of speech & thought are European values too!

I am not sure you and I live on the same continent my friend.

No, we do. Let's take a look at data shall we?
In Spain, the successor group to the Falange won just 616 votes in 2019.
In the UK, the BNP won just 510 votes.
In Denmark, "Hard Line" won 1.8% of the vote.

The largest shares of the vote that any ethno-nationalist party received were Jobbik's 23% and Vlaams Belang's 12%.
I can't think of any other ethnonationalist parties or any presidential candidates.

If you're not willing to cooperate then you shouldn't be part of the EU.

What are you going to do? Give everyone a choice to submit or leave?[/quote]
Yes, actually. If a country doesn't want to put the work in to ensure the EU can be successful, then they shouldn't be welcome.

You haven't rebutted any of my points, especially regarding your utter and sheer lack of knowledge regarding Turkey, especially its culture and worldview.

You didn't make any points. You just said I don't know what I'm talking about. How do I respond to that? You are just crying because we don't want Turkey in the EU.
Let me demonstrate the difference between Europe and Turkey. In Germany, holocaust denial is not prevalent at all. In Turkey, Armenian genocide denial is not just prevalent but the norm, and romanticisation of the people who were responsible for it is common too.

[Vistulange]

You haven't rebutted any of my points, especially regarding your utter and sheer lack of knowledge regarding Turkey, especially its culture and worldview.

You didn't make any points. You just said I don't know what I'm talking about. How do I respond to that? You are just crying because we don't want Turkey in the EU.
Let me demonstrate the difference between Europe and Turkey. In Germany, holocaust denial is not prevalent at all. In Turkey, Armenian genocide denial is not just prevalent but the norm, and romanticisation of the people who were responsible for it is common too.

Putting it out there that you are completely uninformed about the topic you are trying to talk about isn't "crying". It's calling you out on your crap. Learn the difference, it'll do you good.

What you could have done was actually understand that you haven't the foggiest about what you're talking about, but no, you're - by your own admission - only in it to be "right", and not improve yourself. I could even offer you some quality reading, who are not Turks since you don't seem to like us all that much, who have actually put in effort in understanding Turkey and Turks - unlike you - and have actually published quite a lot of quality work on the topic.

But seeing you're only around to "be right", that shall not be necessary, I believe?

[Ansarre]

You didn't make any points. You just said I don't know what I'm talking about. How do I respond to that? You are just crying because we don't want Turkey in the EU.
Let me demonstrate the difference between Europe and Turkey. In Germany, holocaust denial is not prevalent at all. In Turkey, Armenian genocide denial is not just prevalent but the norm, and romanticisation of the people who were responsible for it is common too.

Putting it out there that you are completely uninformed about the topic you are trying to talk about isn't "crying". It's calling you out on your crap. Learn the difference, it'll do you good.

What you could have done was actually understand that you haven't the foggiest about what you're talking about, but no, you're - by your own admission - only in it to be "right", and not improve yourself. I could even offer you some quality reading, who are not Turks since you don't seem to like us all that much, who have actually put in effort in understanding Turkey and Turks - unlike you - and have actually published quite a lot of quality work on the topic.

But seeing you're only around to "be right", that shall not be necessary, I believe?

I don't have an issue with Turkish people. I just think the majority of them have a different worldview from European people and that Turkey is not a suitable inclusion to a united Europe, as I explained already. The fact that literal genocide denial is the prevailing viewpoint of Turkish people is reason enough for me to hold the belief that they hold values not compatible with European ones. Of course you're a fan of Hitler's hero Mustafa Kemal Ataturk so it makes sense that you're defending another fascist.

[Vistulange]

Putting it out there that you are completely uninformed about the topic you are trying to talk about isn't "crying". It's calling you out on your crap. Learn the difference, it'll do you good.

What you could have done was actually understand that you haven't the foggiest about what you're talking about, but no, you're - by your own admission - only in it to be "right", and not improve yourself. I could even offer you some quality reading, who are not Turks since you don't seem to like us all that much, who have actually put in effort in understanding Turkey and Turks - unlike you - and have actually published quite a lot of quality work on the topic.

But seeing you're only around to "be right", that shall not be necessary, I believe?

I don't have an issue with Turkish people. I just think the majority of them have a different worldview from European people and that Turkey is not a suitable inclusion to a united Europe, as I explained already. The fact that literal genocide denial is the prevailing viewpoint of Turkish people is reason enough for me to hold the belief that they hold values not compatible with European ones. Of course you're a fan of Hitler's hero Mustafa Kemal Ataturk so it makes sense that you're defending another fascist.

And that can be changed, as has been changed in history.

No, chief, I think you're just overwhelmingly biased, and the norm of denying the Armenian Genocide just gives you a convenient smokescreen. Nor are you ever interested in learning about "why"s of anything pertaining to Turks, so really, why should I take you seriously in the least bit from now on? I shouldn't.

Now, let's kindly end the threadjack, shall we?

EDIT: I'm not even going to dignify the bit about Mustafa Kemal Atatürk with a meaningful response.

[The Alma Mater]

You didn't make any points. You just said I don't know what I'm talking about. How do I respond to that? You are just crying because we don't want Turkey in the EU.
Let me demonstrate the difference between Europe and Turkey. In Germany, holocaust denial is not prevalent at all. In Turkey, Armenian genocide denial is not just prevalent but the norm, and romanticisation of the people who were responsible for it is common too.

Putting it out there that you are completely uninformed about the topic you are trying to talk about isn't "crying". It's calling you out on your crap. Learn the difference, it'll do you good.

He is however correct that you only said "you're wrong and uninformed!" and never provided evidence of his wrongness.

[Vistulange]

Putting it out there that you are completely uninformed about the topic you are trying to talk about isn't "crying". It's calling you out on your crap. Learn the difference, it'll do you good.

He is however correct that you only said "you're wrong and uninformed!" and never provided evidence of that statement.

I don't really need to put forth evidence when the fellow himself summarised his perception of Turkish culture and worldview.

26,330,823 of those 80 million voted for an imperialist warmongering para-fascist. Two most recent polls give his coalition a majority of the vote too, and he has an approval rating of around 55%. That tells me all I need to know about Turkish peoples' mindsets. Not compatible with western values.

I mean, if you expect me to elaborate on why a judgement based on that is completely wrong and uninformed, I really can't help out much. I can't write on this forum, over and over and over and over again, why Erdoğan is not an imperialist, why he isn't a fascist, and why he isn't the ISIS-lite people he make him out to be, all the time. I've written long, long paragraphs, and I only have so much patience for bullshit, Alma Mater.

[Ansarre]

No, chief, I think you're just overwhelmingly biased, and the norm of denying the Armenian Genocide just gives you a convenient smokescreen. Nor are you ever interested in learning about "why"s of anything pertaining to Turks, so really, why should I take you seriously in the least bit from now on? I shouldn't.

Yes I am biased. I believe that western civilization and the values we profess is absolutely superior to all other civilizations. Turkey has not westernized and much of the populace holds onto regressive, Islamist, and ultranationalist viewpoints that put it at odds. This isn't a threadjack, it's relevant to the topic of European unification. Don't make snide remarks and then get all defensive when people dare to challenge you. You're just proving my position very well. No criticism of Erdogan, no criticism of MKA, no criticism of Turkey. Thankfully, I don't live in Turkey and I live in Europe so I can hold these views without fear of reprisal.

EDIT: I'm not even going to dignify the bit about Mustafa Kemal Atatürk with a meaningful response.

He was an ethnonationalist dictator. Doesn't deserve dignification.

[Ansarre]

He is however correct that you only said "you're wrong and uninformed!" and never provided evidence of that statement.

I don't really need to put forth evidence when the fellow himself summarised his perception of Turkish culture and worldview.

26,330,823 of those 80 million voted for an imperialist warmongering para-fascist. Two most recent polls give his coalition a majority of the vote too, and he has an approval rating of around 55%. That tells me all I need to know about Turkish peoples' mindsets. Not compatible with western values.

I mean, if you expect me to elaborate on why a judgement based on that is completely wrong and uninformed, I really can't help out much. I can't write on this forum, over and over and over and over again, why Erdoğan is not an imperialist, why he isn't a fascist, and why he isn't the ISIS-lite people he make him out to be, all the time. I've written long, long paragraphs, and I only have so much patience for bullshit, Alma Mater.

Invading Syria isn't imperialism! Invading Libya isn't imperialism! Supporting the continued illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus isn't imperialism! He isn't ISIS-lite or a fascist (I used para-fascist to distinguish between authentic fascism and individuals who profess similar authoritarian views), but he's still an Islamist tyrant who suppresses freedoms and targets political dissidents.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to assume that your country does not share the same values as my civilization when a majority of your voting population supported Erdogan.

[Vistulange]

No, chief, I think you're just overwhelmingly biased, and the norm of denying the Armenian Genocide just gives you a convenient smokescreen. Nor are you ever interested in learning about "why"s of anything pertaining to Turks, so really, why should I take you seriously in the least bit from now on? I shouldn't.

Yes I am biased. I believe that western civilization and the values we profess is absolutely superior to all other civilizations. Turkey has not westernized and much of the populace holds onto regressive, Islamist, and ultranationalist viewpoints that put it at odds. This isn't a threadjack, it's relevant to the topic of European unification. Don't make snide remarks and then get all defensive when people dare to challenge you. You're just proving my position very well. No criticism of Erdogan, no criticism of MKA, no criticism of Turkey. Thankfully, I don't live in Turkey and I live in Europe so I can hold these views without fear of reprisal.

EDIT: I'm not even going to dignify the bit about Mustafa Kemal Atatürk with a meaningful response.

He was an ethnonationalist dictator. Doesn't deserve dignification.

You have really no idea what you're talking about, Ansarre. I've criticised Erdoğan and Turkey plenty in this forum, as well as the CHP's policies between 1923-1950. You not having seen them is not my problem in the least bit. The fact that you think I face reprisal for criticising Turkey and Erdoğan while living in Turkey is, well, telling.

Seriously, you really ought not to talk about stuff you have no idea about.

I don't really need to put forth evidence when the fellow himself summarised his perception of Turkish culture and worldview.

I mean, if you expect me to elaborate on why a judgement based on that is completely wrong and uninformed, I really can't help out much. I can't write on this forum, over and over and over and over again, why Erdoğan is not an imperialist, why he isn't a fascist, and why he isn't the ISIS-lite people he make him out to be, all the time. I've written long, long paragraphs, and I only have so much patience for bullshit, Alma Mater.

Invading Syria isn't imperialism! Invading Libya isn't imperialism! Supporting the continued illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus isn't imperialism! He isn't ISIS-lite or a fascist (I used para-fascist to distinguish between authentic fascism and individuals who profess similar authoritarian views), but he's still an Islamist tyrant who suppresses freedoms and targets political dissidents.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to assume that your country does not share the same values as my civilization when a majority of your voting population supported Erdogan.

Again, superficial. I wrote along the lines of "I explained why he isn't so", not "he isn't so, accept it!". Read.

Also, double-posting, man, not good etiquette.

[Ansarre]

Yes I am biased. I believe that western civilization and the values we profess is absolutely superior to all other civilizations. Turkey has not westernized and much of the populace holds onto regressive, Islamist, and ultranationalist viewpoints that put it at odds. This isn't a threadjack, it's relevant to the topic of European unification. Don't make snide remarks and then get all defensive when people dare to challenge you. You're just proving my position very well. No criticism of Erdogan, no criticism of MKA, no criticism of Turkey. Thankfully, I don't live in Turkey and I live in Europe so I can hold these views without fear of reprisal.


He was an ethnonationalist dictator. Doesn't deserve dignification.

You have really no idea what you're talking about, Ansarre. I've criticised Erdoğan and Turkey plenty in this forum, as well as the CHP's policies between 1923-1950. You not having seen them is not my problem in the least bit. The fact that you think I face reprisal for criticising Turkey and Erdoğan while living in Turkey is, well, telling.

Seriously, you really ought not to talk about stuff you have no idea about.

There is No War in Ba Sing Se

[Vistulange]

You have really no idea what you're talking about, Ansarre. I've criticised Erdoğan and Turkey plenty in this forum, as well as the CHP's policies between 1923-1950. You not having seen them is not my problem in the least bit. The fact that you think I face reprisal for criticising Turkey and Erdoğan while living in Turkey is, well, telling.

Seriously, you really ought not to talk about stuff you have no idea about.

There is No War in Ba Sing Se

And yet, I'm not in any danger.

[Miternet]

good luck getting Europeans to agree on anything long enough to form a federal union. Best you can hope for is to lean into that mutual dislike of America. Tell them that unifying would give them an economic lead on the US and reduce their cultural hegemony and you'll have them signing up for the USE overnight.

[Dogmeat]

I agree provided that Prague is the capital.

"Defenestration" is such a fun word.

[Ansarre]

I agree provided that Prague is the capital.

"Defenestration" is such a fun word.

Brussels and Strasbourg have the infrastructure but Wien, Prague and Munich more central. Czechia most likely wouldn't want to join a united Europe sadly.

[Rio Cana]

snip....
You want to talk to me about the success story European Latvia has been?
Surface level GDP statistics mean nothing especially when you consider that the country went from a centrally planned assembly line to a free market country. The European Union has facilitated wide scale internal corruption by appointing Dombrovskis as Vice-President within the EU, by funding & supporting Parex Bank & it’s successor Citadel bank the EU authorities have supported a money laundering link which has deprived the Latvian tax payer of roughly 80 Million in a 2008 bailout.

Latvia leads in aspects such as alcoholism and homicides but that is a national issue and has no correlation with Europe, despite this the EU has brought it’s own problems that we’ll need to fix. GDP measurements are also especially inadequate in measuring the well being of a country, in which case it is a depressing state of affairs due to austerity measures put in place after the recession. You can cram GDP statistics all you want, people are still living like it’s 1995.

The schengen area has utterly depleted Latvia demographically with current trends indicating a grim state of affairs for the support of pensions and social services in the future, even the economic benefits are short term as the diaspora workforce abroad won’t be able to economically support the state for ever (aka death and integration). The largest brain drain in Latvian history is still occurring.

Latvia doesn’t need to beg at the knees of countries that don’t care about it, such as Sweden that has betrayed its trust long ago. Only with true leadership and representation, new and utterly nationally centered leadership, can the country properly join a European community and be a leading economy. EU federalism is lazy, I don’t want to live in a country where I’m governed and ‘enlightened’ by such higher cultures and economies.
Once a different Union bolstered about economic progress, I’m not gonna be a ballless bitch and just give something away my people have bled and suffered for- I remember the price of freedom, of living in your own land, and there is no way in hell you can swap that with a few green numbers.

This starts playing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql0G312R2IQ

[Rio Cana]

western and eastern europe aswell as southern and northern hve diffrent belifs and values,

western europe seems to be very progressive, however there progressive views are oftern looked upon as negative in northern and central europe, fpr exapmple poland has a negative view on progressivism there are big protest chanting that they are "not belguim" and attacking progressive values while progressive values such as lgbt rights are seen as positive in places like germany and belguim are greatly looked upon as disgusting and wrong in places like belarus and poland its would be great if they could unite and all however the problem is that the countries of europe are just to diffrent regardling the values .

Very much true, but that's why I believe a federal EU should allow member states to handle such issues. If Westerners want progressivism let them have it, if Easterners want to preserve their traditional values, they should be allowed to. A federal EU should mainly concern itself with common monetary, fiscal (to an extend), foreign and defensive policy, letting much of the rest in the jurisdiction of member states.

That sounds more like a confederation then federal union.

[Rio Cana]

Only to remaster the final countdown.

You seem to be stuck in time.

The new music of Europe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC8d-28TaaU

See spoiler for song info.

The two brothers are from Spain. She is a rising star from Puerto Rico.

[Rio Cana]

Snip ....
This benefits the northern countries and no one else. I don't expect the governments of Spain, Italy, Greece and the like to be competent on their own, let alone a federation of these countries.

At least Spain has Mexico to fall back on.

Mexico and Spain have continually renewed their partnership, which is based on a shared history and culture. This has become a Strategic Partnership that includes bilateral, Ibero-American, bi-regional and multilateral issues that unite both countries into a community of interests and in their vision of the future.

The focus of Spanish export firms on Mexico is not only reflected in the growth in exports or the change in the type of goods but also in the flows of direct investment towards this country, which have been substantial. Actually, Spain is the third country with the highest cumulative foreign direct investment (FDI) in Mexico, 12.8% of the total. Moreover, this focus on Mexico is not only a trend in Spain. Indeed, Mexico is the seventh most popular destination in the world for FDI according to the UNCTAD, after China, the USA, India, Indonesia, Brazil and Germany.

[Rio Cana]

So no solidarity between nations ? Because expecting Berlin c.s. to keep bailing them out forever is unrealistic, unless they can offer something in return.

Two groups with completely mutually exclusive ideas on a thing cannot find solidarity on that thing. “Solidarity” only makes sense if there is enough agreement,

But my solution solves that too. A separate Southern European Union could practice different fiscal policies than the North, but the North would no longer have to bail it out. Solves both problems. The North is tired of bailing out the south, the south tired of the North’s excessive austerity. So let them go their own ways on those issues. Still could have a common trade and travel, but without the more controversial aspects of EU rule.

Southern and Northern Europe have very different cultures and economic philosophies.

Germany has this same Northern Germany vs Southern Germany problem.

[Vaspelia]

As a multi-lateral coalition where European nations work together to safeguard the interests of both their peoples and their future, of both their own respective nations and Europe as a whole. Knowning the fact they are the end of the day one diverse land under one God?. Yeah.
As a bureocratic super-state made of never-elected individuals and collectives that instead of serving the peoples of Europe, they work to slowly crush them, so they can mold them easily for the support and gain of their own materialistic/malevolent goals. Nah pass.

[Ifreann]

As a multi-lateral coalition where European nations work together to safeguard the interests of both their peoples and their future, of both their own respective nations and Europe as a whole. Knowning the fact they are the end of the day one diverse land under one God?. Yeah.
As a bureocratic super-state made of never-elected individuals and collectives that instead of serving the peoples of Europe, they work to slowly crush them, so they can mold them easily for the support and gain of their own materialistic/malevolent goals. Nah pass.

How can Europe be one diverse land under one God when there are no gods?

[-Astoria-]

As a multi-lateral coalition where European nations work together to safeguard the interests of both their peoples and their future, of both their own respective nations and Europe as a whole. Knowning the fact they are the end of the day one diverse land under one God?. Yeah.
As a bureocratic super-state made of never-elected individuals and collectives that instead of serving the peoples of Europe, they work to slowly crush them, so they can mold them easily for the support and gain of their own materialistic/malevolent goals. Nah pass.

How can Europe be one diverse land under one God when there are no gods?

*thonk*... but that's another topic for later.

[Ansarre]

As a multi-lateral coalition where European nations work together to safeguard the interests of both their peoples and their future, of both their own respective nations and Europe as a whole. Knowning the fact they are the end of the day one diverse land under one God?. Yeah.
As a bureocratic super-state made of never-elected individuals and collectives that instead of serving the peoples of Europe, they work to slowly crush them, so they can mold them easily for the support and gain of their own materialistic/malevolent goals. Nah pass.

Good thing everyone is talking about the former and the later just seems to be some weird dystopian hypothetical you thought up.