Is it time for Europe to unite?

[Occidens Praseodymia]

Good for you

Thank you.

You're welcome.

[-Astoria-]

Not surprised a majority of Greeks favor EU federalism. With tensions with Turkey on the rise and the (lack of) size of the Greek economy, a united Europe is in Greek national interests. A united EU would discourage Turkish encroachment on Greek territories and economic zone, and would provide financial assistance and stability necessary to kickstart economic growth.

Personally, I am supportive of European federalism but that is because I believe that:

a) European nations need to cooperate if they are to compete with giants such as Russia, China, India, US, etch. If we want to be players on the global stage, we need to cooperate because no European nation is important enough to have the geopolitical and economical gravity that European countries had in the 19th century.

b) European nations, despite the cultural differences they have, share certain values and historical experiences: Greco-Roman antiquity, Christianity, Enlightenment.

As such, a federal European Union would both be in the interests of EU countries and wouldn't be a forced union, as there are shared cultural values.

What I do have a problem with are:

a) globalists who view EU federalism as a first step towards a broader, global governance - No. A federal EU would work exactly because of shared historical and cultural values.

b) federalists who believe some forged 'European' identity should replace national identities - again, no. You can be both European and Greek, Italian, Hungarian, French, etch. You can be both supportive of EU cooperation, and have a deep interest in preserving your national culture, values, identity, etch. Also the idea that 'European/EU' = 'liberal' should be dropped.

c) Overt concentration of power in Brussels. My idea of federalism is that Brussels should have more powers in certain matters (foreign, defense, certain fiscal aspects) compared to now, but that it should also delegate more powers to nation states on other issues (regulations a prominent example). A EU federation shouldn't (and needn't) be a superstate.

You keep using that word.

[Ansarre]

In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.

Russia includes a huge territory in Asia and many different ethnic groups. Point being, even though I would also like a democratic Russia in the EU, many Russians might not be as supportive.

Why not Turkey? Provided Erdogan is gone, obviously, and the country is stabilized and democratized.

As far as I know most people in Iceland do not want to join the EU.

I emphasized "provided it agrees to accept further integration". It is unlikely that would happen but be welcome if it did. Russia is the largest country in Europe by landmass and would be a welcome addition to the union.

I believe Europe should unite, but with the current European Union, I'd stay well away.
I mean they have ridiculous copyright laws for starters, you can't take a picture of the Eiffel Tower at night and let's not forget the dreaded Article 13.
And support over the Union waxes and wanes, so it's usually, generally, pretty unsettled.
No wonder Britain left.
But all aside, a united Europe would in no doubt be a magnificent, powerful nation rivalling that of the US, China and India. Not only that but they'll have territories everywhere around world, a very strategic thing to have.

Article 13 literally isn't an issue at all. Britain left because British people have a weird national spirit where we expect the whole world to work to our benefit out but not give anything back.

No, Germany would control everything with 4th reich.

No it wouldn't. France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Italy, Poland, and Spain all exert significant influence in the EU. The myth of German dominance can be exposed easily with apportionment. Germany is the least fairly represented country in the EU.

[Novus America]

How are we defining Europe? Just current EU members? Others? Are Russia and Turkey supposed to be part?

My concern though is the assumption of the existence of a common European culture and values across all Europe when really the history, values and language of say Spain and Bulgaria have relatively little in common. We are already seeing this problem in the EU with the North and South divided on monetary policy and the East and West on social issues. Let alone the foreign policy contradictions between say Germany and Poland regarding Russia.

Hence I think maybe rather than one Europeans federation why not a few European federations, in some sort of alliance/economic association?

You could have a Nordic Federation, a Southern European Federation of the most Roman influenced places like Spain, France, Italy, Greece. Maybe very loose association for Eastern Europe, etc.
Although one for countries historically associated with Germany admittedly would be the most controversial given Germany’s history.

This causes less conflict as the Southern European and Northern Europeans need not fight over monetary policy any more, as each could have a separate one.

Parts of Europe do have a common history, culture, and were united in the past. But all of Europe seems likely to just have too many contradictions on key points to be particularly viable. And all of Europe has never really been a common thing.

I think 4 or 5 federations in some sort of economic association might be more viable than a single federation.

[Genivaria]

No, Germany would control everything with 4th reich.

This '4th Reich' meme is stupid and people should be embarrassed for peddling it.

[Vistulange]

How are we defining Europe?

Generally the way that favours one's political position of the day, really.

Seeing "Europe" is not distinct from "Asia" as a landmass in any meaningful way, it's a geopolitical term that is defined according to one's values. It's actually a good indicator of how one sees the world.

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Will this EU superstate crackdown on illegal migrants or continue to have open borders?

Europe doesn't have open external borders.

Everybody drink.

It's a valid thing to point out, actually. The lack of an EU navy and common EU border policy for external borders has been of significant detriment to our continental security and has exacerbated euroscepticism.

My opinion is that yes, Europe should unite into one large country. Now what countries are actually in Europe and which aren't, is another story entirely. (for example, would Iceland be included, or Russia? Would we even include Turkey?)

In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.

Europe is way too diverse to function in any sort of centralized manner without the interests of smaller, marginal countries being subverted in favour of those with more weight to throw around. Which is probably why pan-Europeanism is so popular among white nationalists who don't understand that "white" is not a nation and crypto-imperialists aiming to secure hegemony for their nation/faction over the rest of the European continent. The more centralized the EU gets, the less its going to function.

I disagree wholeheartedly. A united Europe would elevate our common heritages while working to actively preserve our individual cultures. The European Union already does a stellar job at preserving and promoting European cultures already. For more information click here.
As for pan-Europeanism among white nationalists... I wouldn't know anything about this since I'm not one I'm not looking to establish a nation-state but a federation of many peoples with shared geopolitical interests.

A part of me says it should, another says it shouldn’t. I fear a federated Europe would be detrimental to the preservation and independence of Europe’s multitude of cultures and peoples. The status and power of states like Germany and France have over the EU in its current form makes me fearful for them being favoured over, say, the Silesians, the Bretons, and so on. Only if every native culture was treated equally and properly, then yes.

The EU has done a stellar job at supporting efforts to promote and preserve minority languages, as well as all of the cultures of Europe. I do not have any reason to fear, as someone from three cultural minority backgrounds, that a unified EU would harm efforts to preserve and promote my cultures. In fact, I haven't heard anyone I've campaigned with point it out either.

Ideally, Europe should unite into a single monarchic polity not unlike a kind of reborn HRE (but not German-dominated). Crowns and thrones should be revived in order to cement ourselves strongly in our collective European heritage.

Well ya know, Otto von Habsburg was an enthusiastic supporter of Pan-Europeanism!

I would not be against the UK joining if a united Europe was to my liking. If nothing else it would further break Washington’s hold on global hegemony.

As a Briton who voted Conservative in 2019, I would love to see the UK rejoining the EU in future. But as it stands the UK is an opponent to further integration, so its in both our interests to be separate.

A united Europe needs to have a Palmerstonesque leadership, however. Russia and China aren’t threatened by fancy letters, there needs to be real fear of European retaliation against them for any transgression.

Indeed! Post-unification I think Europe should immediately step up her role on the world stage.

That would be like North and South America uniting into one country.
It’s stupid, I’m happy with the living standards in my nation, and I don’t want them to get worse because other more corrupt nations get mixed with mine.

This is an ignorant comment. Europe is already well integrated and outside of a few examples of ex-communist countries, there isn't that significant of a gap in living standards going from country to country as there is in the Americas.

Europe is not a monolith, it never was. It’s not a continent of a singular assimilated language, culture or ethnicity. The reigns of power would be placed in the West, all power wielded would be by the Germans or the French. The end result would be massacre and war.
Handing over power to an elite in Brussels brings no human benefit, European politicians leave their national/regional positions after a scandal or not enough pay to go work there. Whole thing is meant to make a quick buck and rub shoulders with other EU coffee makers.

This is just extreme fearmongering. No human benefit? Membership in the EU and increased integration has brought SIGNIFICANT benefits to Latvia. Latvia joined in 2004 and GDP more than doubled in four years.

Conceptually sounds great. Timing is a little bad.
Also, where was the OP copied from, cause that's some interesting kerning you got going on there.

Copied from nowhere. I just prefer reading things in bigger font and I forgot to remove the [size] tags.

Are the Romani?

Yes.

Europe can't get things together now. Why do you think them uniting together will be any different?

You could say this about any country with an elected/non-patrimonial government.

You want to talk to me about the success story European Latvia has been?
Surface level GDP statistics mean nothing especially when you consider that the country went from a centrally planned assembly line to a free market country. The European Union has facilitated wide scale internal corruption by appointing Dombrovskis as Vice-President within the EU, by funding & supporting Parex Bank & it’s successor Citadel bank the EU authorities have supported a money laundering link which has deprived the Latvian tax payer of roughly 80 Million in a 2008 bailout.

Latvia leads in aspects such as alcoholism and homicides but that is a national issue and has no correlation with Europe, despite this the EU has brought it’s own problems that we’ll need to fix. GDP measurements are also especially inadequate in measuring the well being of a country, in which case it is a depressing state of affairs due to austerity measures put in place after the recession. You can cram GDP statistics all you want, people are still living like it’s 1995.

The schengen area has utterly depleted Latvia demographically with current trends indicating a grim state of affairs for the support of pensions and social services in the future, even the economic benefits are short term as the diaspora workforce abroad won’t be able to economically support the state for ever (aka death and integration). The largest brain drain in Latvian history is still occurring.

Latvia doesn’t need to beg at the knees of countries that don’t care about it, such as Sweden that has betrayed its trust long ago. Only with true leadership and representation, new and utterly nationally centered leadership, can the country properly join a European community and be a leading economy. EU federalism is lazy, I don’t want to live in a country where I’m governed and ‘enlightened’ by such higher cultures and economies.
Once a different Union bolstered about economic progress, I’m not gonna be a ballless bitch and just give something away my people have bled and suffered for- I remember the price of freedom, of living in your own land, and there is no way in hell you can swap that with a few green numbers.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Will this EU superstate crackdown on illegal migrants or continue to have open borders?

Europe doesn't have open external borders.

Everybody drink.

It's a valid thing to point out, actually. The lack of an EU navy and common EU border policy for external borders has been of significant detriment to our continental security and has exacerbated euroscepticism.

My opinion is that yes, Europe should unite into one large country. Now what countries are actually in Europe and which aren't, is another story entirely. (for example, would Iceland be included, or Russia? Would we even include Turkey?)

In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.

Europe is way too diverse to function in any sort of centralized manner without the interests of smaller, marginal countries being subverted in favour of those with more weight to throw around. Which is probably why pan-Europeanism is so popular among white nationalists who don't understand that "white" is not a nation and crypto-imperialists aiming to secure hegemony for their nation/faction over the rest of the European continent. The more centralized the EU gets, the less its going to function.

I disagree wholeheartedly. A united Europe would elevate our common heritages while working to actively preserve our individual cultures. The European Union already does a stellar job at preserving and promoting European cultures already. For more information click here.
As for pan-Europeanism among white nationalists... I wouldn't know anything about this since I'm not one I'm not looking to establish a nation-state but a federation of many peoples with shared geopolitical interests.

A part of me says it should, another says it shouldn’t. I fear a federated Europe would be detrimental to the preservation and independence of Europe’s multitude of cultures and peoples. The status and power of states like Germany and France have over the EU in its current form makes me fearful for them being favoured over, say, the Silesians, the Bretons, and so on. Only if every native culture was treated equally and properly, then yes.

The EU has done a stellar job at supporting efforts to promote and preserve minority languages, as well as all of the cultures of Europe. I do not have any reason to fear, as someone from three cultural minority backgrounds, that a unified EU would harm efforts to preserve and promote my cultures. In fact, I haven't heard anyone I've campaigned with point it out either.

Ideally, Europe should unite into a single monarchic polity not unlike a kind of reborn HRE (but not German-dominated). Crowns and thrones should be revived in order to cement ourselves strongly in our collective European heritage.

Well ya know, Otto von Habsburg was an enthusiastic supporter of Pan-Europeanism!

I would not be against the UK joining if a united Europe was to my liking. If nothing else it would further break Washington’s hold on global hegemony.

As a Briton who voted Conservative in 2019, I would love to see the UK rejoining the EU in future. But as it stands the UK is an opponent to further integration, so its in both our interests to be separate.

A united Europe needs to have a Palmerstonesque leadership, however. Russia and China aren’t threatened by fancy letters, there needs to be real fear of European retaliation against them for any transgression.

Indeed! Post-unification I think Europe should immediately step up her role on the world stage.

That would be like North and South America uniting into one country.
It’s stupid, I’m happy with the living standards in my nation, and I don’t want them to get worse because other more corrupt nations get mixed with mine.

This is an ignorant comment. Europe is already well integrated and outside of a few examples of ex-communist countries, there isn't that significant of a gap in living standards going from country to country as there is in the Americas.

Europe is not a monolith, it never was. It’s not a continent of a singular assimilated language, culture or ethnicity. The reigns of power would be placed in the West, all power wielded would be by the Germans or the French. The end result would be massacre and war.
Handing over power to an elite in Brussels brings no human benefit, European politicians leave their national/regional positions after a scandal or not enough pay to go work there. Whole thing is meant to make a quick buck and rub shoulders with other EU coffee makers.

This is just extreme fearmongering. No human benefit? Membership in the EU and increased integration has brought SIGNIFICANT benefits to Latvia. Latvia joined in 2004 and GDP more than doubled in four years.

Conceptually sounds great. Timing is a little bad.
Also, where was the OP copied from, cause that's some interesting kerning you got going on there.

Copied from nowhere. I just prefer reading things in bigger font and I forgot to remove the [size] tags.

Are the Romani?

Yes.

Europe can't get things together now. Why do you think them uniting together will be any different?

You could say this about any country with an elected/non-patrimonial government.

Maybe not completely open borders, but for the longest time, they pushed for borders that were extremely lax and went after countries that wanted to get tough. I know they did partially change this but still, it shows where they lean on immigration. If the E.U. becomes a unified nation, they should have the willingness to enforce their borders. Europe cannot take in every migrant nor should it.

Also, a federal EU should reject places like Turkey from membership. I do think Novus America gave a good point with different European cultures as well.

[Ifreann]

Europe doesn't have open external borders.


It's a valid thing to point out, actually. The lack of an EU navy and common EU border policy for external borders has been of significant detriment to our continental security and has exacerbated euroscepticism.


In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.


I disagree wholeheartedly. A united Europe would elevate our common heritages while working to actively preserve our individual cultures. The European Union already does a stellar job at preserving and promoting European cultures already. For more information click here.
As for pan-Europeanism among white nationalists... I wouldn't know anything about this since I'm not one I'm not looking to establish a nation-state but a federation of many peoples with shared geopolitical interests.


The EU has done a stellar job at supporting efforts to promote and preserve minority languages, as well as all of the cultures of Europe. I do not have any reason to fear, as someone from three cultural minority backgrounds, that a unified EU would harm efforts to preserve and promote my cultures. In fact, I haven't heard anyone I've campaigned with point it out either.


Well ya know, Otto von Habsburg was an enthusiastic supporter of Pan-Europeanism!


As a Briton who voted Conservative in 2019, I would love to see the UK rejoining the EU in future. But as it stands the UK is an opponent to further integration, so its in both our interests to be separate.


Indeed! Post-unification I think Europe should immediately step up her role on the world stage.


This is an ignorant comment. Europe is already well integrated and outside of a few examples of ex-communist countries, there isn't that significant of a gap in living standards going from country to country as there is in the Americas.


This is just extreme fearmongering. No human benefit? Membership in the EU and increased integration has brought SIGNIFICANT benefits to Latvia. Latvia joined in 2004 and GDP more than doubled in four years.


Copied from nowhere. I just prefer reading things in bigger font and I forgot to remove the [size] tags.


Yes.


You could say this about any country with an elected/non-patrimonial government.

Maybe not completely open borders, but for the longest time, they pushed for borders that were extremely lax and went after countries that wanted to get tough. I know they did partially change this but still, it shows where they lean on immigration. If the E.U. becomes a unified nation, they should have the willingness to enforce their borders. Europe cannot take in every migrant nor should it.

Also, a federal EU should reject places like Turkey from membership. I do think Novus America gave a good point with different European cultures as well.

I imagine that the EU could, if we were determined to actually do so, take in every refugee and asylum seeker we could find.

[Novus America]

Maybe not completely open borders, but for the longest time, they pushed for borders that were extremely lax and went after countries that wanted to get tough. I know they did partially change this but still, it shows where they lean on immigration. If the E.U. becomes a unified nation, they should have the willingness to enforce their borders. Europe cannot take in every migrant nor should it.

Also, a federal EU should reject places like Turkey from membership. I do think Novus America gave a good point with different European cultures as well.

I imagine that the EU could, if we were determined to actually do so, take in every refugee and asylum seeker we could find.

Well I guess technically Europe could in theory (at great cost) but I do not think that was the point of course. You are being deliberately obtuse.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

100% yes. It would be a solid counterbalance to China.

[New haven america]

After all, it's not like Europe had been united multiple time in history or anything.

... Wait a second!

I would be fine with Europe uniting as long as my country isn’t a part of it, they can unite with the rest of the North instead.

Why? Countries are temporary social constructs.

[Novus America]

100% yes. It would be a solid counterbalance to China.

Only if it has a common foreign policy with spine. Given how the EU cravenly folds to the PRC when it is not too divided to do anything at all I doubt it will be successful in that regards.

Unless it can somehow overcome the problems of Europeans lacking a foreign policy consensus and their leadership being spineless 90s relic neoliberals.

[Novus America]

I would be fine with Europe uniting as long as my country isn’t a part of it, they can unite with the rest of the North instead.

Why? Countries are temporary social constructs.

That is a non sequitur. Just because things are a social construct does not mean that they necessarily lack value or should immediately be radically changed.

Simply saying something is a social construct says nothing of its merits (or possible lack thereof).

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

definitely yes, but the cyprus problem wouldn't be right until it was resolved. EOKA terrorist thought seems unlikely before it ends

[New haven america]

Why? Countries are temporary social constructs.

That is a non sequitur. Just because things are a social construct does not mean that they necessarily lack value or should immediately be radically changed.

Simply saying something is a social construct says nothing of its merits (or possible lack thereof).

Wooosh~

[Novus America]

That is a non sequitur. Just because things are a social construct does not mean that they necessarily lack value or should immediately be radically changed.

Simply saying something is a social construct says nothing of its merits (or possible lack thereof).

Wooosh~

I mean given you simply rejected his contention on those grounds you said nothing beyond that.
You comment lack enough substance to be meaningful.

[AAngelica]

western and eastern europe aswell as southern and northern hve diffrent belifs and values,

western europe seems to be very progressive, however there progressive views are oftern looked upon as negative in northern and central europe, fpr exapmple poland has a negative view on progressivism there are big protest chanting that they are "not belguim" and attacking progressive values while progressive values such as lgbt rights are seen as positive in places like germany and belguim are greatly looked upon as disgusting and wrong in places like belarus and poland its would be great if they could unite and all however the problem is that the countries of europe are just to diffrent regardling the values .

[Sao Nova Europa]

western and eastern europe aswell as southern and northern hve diffrent belifs and values,

western europe seems to be very progressive, however there progressive views are oftern looked upon as negative in northern and central europe, fpr exapmple poland has a negative view on progressivism there are big protest chanting that they are "not belguim" and attacking progressive values while progressive values such as lgbt rights are seen as positive in places like germany and belguim are greatly looked upon as disgusting and wrong in places like belarus and poland its would be great if they could unite and all however the problem is that the countries of europe are just to diffrent regardling the values .

Very much true, but that's why I believe a federal EU should allow member states to handle such issues. If Westerners want progressivism let them have it, if Easterners want to preserve their traditional values, they should be allowed to. A federal EU should mainly concern itself with common monetary, fiscal (to an extend), foreign and defensive policy, letting much of the rest in the jurisdiction of member states.

[Rusozak]

I don't think Europe is ready. Still too much ethnonationalism. The ratio of inter-European genocides and religious persecutions per century is still too high.

[Novus America]

western and eastern europe aswell as southern and northern hve diffrent belifs and values,

western europe seems to be very progressive, however there progressive views are oftern looked upon as negative in northern and central europe, fpr exapmple poland has a negative view on progressivism there are big protest chanting that they are "not belguim" and attacking progressive values while progressive values such as lgbt rights are seen as positive in places like germany and belguim are greatly looked upon as disgusting and wrong in places like belarus and poland its would be great if they could unite and all however the problem is that the countries of europe are just to diffrent regardling the values .

Very much true, but that's why I believe a federal EU should allow member states to handle such issues. If Westerners want progressivism let them have it, if Easterners want to preserve their traditional values, they should be allowed to. A federal EU should mainly concern itself with common monetary, fiscal (to an extend), foreign and defensive policy, letting much of the rest in the jurisdiction of member states.

But that requires different attitudes. Western Europeans tend to believe a Europe should enforce their version of protecting rights and such.

Besides there are also huge differences on monetary, fiscal, defense and foreign policies across Europe.

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

Only to remaster the final countdown.

[Keklystan]

no.

it would never work.

[The Great-German Empire]

I think that it's better for those countries to stay separate. Even free trade and a united monetary policy had bad teething issues and most small countries are yet to see the benefits, and I don't think P.I.G.S. group will ever benefit; And the countries have very different customs, languages, civic law traditions and ideologies. A central government trying to unify all of that would cause much trouble, and even the excuse that they have now in Brussels is already causing dissatisfaction.

Plus the EU is already bad enough at snubbing national governments. They've already literally blackmailed an Austrian government into resigning in the early 2000s, and there has been at least one Swiss referendum not properly implemented due to EU standards.

[Greater Miami Shores]

I don't think Europe is ready. Still too much ethnonationalism. The ratio of inter-European genocides and religious persecutions per century is still too high.

As I also posted in different words:
I don't think Europe is ready. Still too much ethnonationalism.