NATION

PASSWORD

Study finds State Legislatures Dominated By white Men

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San Lumen
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Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:00 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:But no favouritism in primaries. Give them a head-start but it stops at the primaries which is where democracy cuts in.

Head start = favouritism. It's still stacking the deck in favour of a particular candidate.

How?

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:No one is talking about it being compulsory. Merely getting more woman and non whites to run. It’s up to the people to decide who they want

Why should we get more women and non whites to vote? Why should we care about race?


Why shouldn’t we get more women and non whites to vote? why shouldn’t we have more women and non whites running for office?
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:04 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:Why should we get more women and non whites to vote? Why should we care about race?


Why shouldn’t we get more women and non whites to vote? why shouldn’t we have more women and non whites running for office?

Because caring about the race or sex of a person just leads to the minority being sexist or racist. Why should we get only more women and non whites to vote and not do the same for white males? Do they not matter? Do you actually care about a person's sex or race when he/she comes out to vote or run for office?
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:08 am

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:But no favouritism in primaries. Give them a head-start but it stops at the primaries which is where democracy cuts in.

Head start = favouritism. It's still stacking the deck in favour of a particular candidate.


Well I'm OK with that kind of "favoritism". It's a party thing, and it's before the voters get to see any of the primary candidates.
Also, AiliAiliA
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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Why shouldn’t we get more women and non whites to vote? why shouldn’t we have more women and non whites running for office?

Because caring about the race or sex of a person just leads to the minority being sexist or racist. Why should we get only more women and non whites to vote and not do the same for white males? Do they not matter? Do you actually care about a person's sex or race when he/she comes out to vote or run for office?

I’m not seeing how your drawing any of these conclusions from what I said

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:11 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Why shouldn’t we get more women and non whites to vote? why shouldn’t we have more women and non whites running for office?

Because caring about the race or sex of a person just leads to the minority being sexist or racist. Why should we get only more women and non whites to vote and not do the same for white males? Do they not matter? Do you actually care about a person's sex or race when he/she comes out to vote or run for office?


Do they not matter? Of course they do. They matter as much as any other candidate. BUT NO MORE.

There's a system which for some reason favors white men. To any attempt to redress that, necessarily reducing the number of white men, you will object that we're discriminating against white men. When all we're doing is reducing the positive discrimination towards white men.

It's white privilege in a nutshell. "You can't take away my right to get an unfair advantage, it's not fair"
Also, AiliAiliA
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:20 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:Because caring about the race or sex of a person just leads to the minority being sexist or racist. Why should we get only more women and non whites to vote and not do the same for white males? Do they not matter? Do you actually care about a person's sex or race when he/she comes out to vote or run for office?

I’m not seeing how your drawing any of these conclusions from what I said

Why should we encourage only non whites and women to vote?
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
La xinga wrote:Because caring about the race or sex of a person just leads to the minority being sexist or racist. Why should we get only more women and non whites to vote and not do the same for white males? Do they not matter? Do you actually care about a person's sex or race when he/she comes out to vote or run for office?


Do they not matter? Of course they do. They matter as much as any other candidate. BUT NO MORE.

There's a system which for some reason favors white men. To any attempt to redress that, necessarily reducing the number of white men, you will object that we're discriminating against white men. When all we're doing is reducing the positive discrimination towards white men.

It's white privilege in a nutshell. "You can't take away my right to get an unfair advantage, it's not fair"

It doesn't favor men, the people CHOOSE men, that's what democracy is about. It's not necessary to reduce the number, why should it be? Do we really care about race?

White privilege? I could say the same as T the I said, that he's white and male, but he has no privileges, cuz he ain't rich. It's $, not race or sex.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 19432
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:23 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I’m not seeing how your drawing any of these conclusions from what I said

Why should we encourage only non whites and women to vote?
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Do they not matter? Of course they do. They matter as much as any other candidate. BUT NO MORE.

There's a system which for some reason favors white men. To any attempt to redress that, necessarily reducing the number of white men, you will object that we're discriminating against white men. When all we're doing is reducing the positive discrimination towards white men.

It's white privilege in a nutshell. "You can't take away my right to get an unfair advantage, it's not fair"

It doesn't favor men, the people CHOOSE men, that's what democracy is about. It's not necessary to reduce the number, why should it be? Do we really care about race?

White privilege? I could say the same as T the I said, that he's white and male, but he has no privileges, cuz he ain't rich. It's $, not race or sex.


Whites are on average more privileged than minorities. True, there are rich black and brown people and poor whites but on average more whites have access to wealth than minorities do.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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San Lumen
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Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:23 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I’m not seeing how your drawing any of these conclusions from what I said

Why should we encourage only non whites and women to vote?
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Do they not matter? Of course they do. They matter as much as any other candidate. BUT NO MORE.

There's a system which for some reason favors white men. To any attempt to redress that, necessarily reducing the number of white men, you will object that we're discriminating against white men. When all we're doing is reducing the positive discrimination towards white men.

It's white privilege in a nutshell. "You can't take away my right to get an unfair advantage, it's not fair"

It doesn't favor men, the people CHOOSE men, that's what democracy is about. It's not necessary to reduce the number, why should it be? Do we really care about race?

White privilege? I could say the same as T the I said, that he's white and male, but he has no privileges, cuz he ain't rich. It's $, not race or sex.

A lot of times only white men run. All anyone is saying is for more women and non whites to become candidates. How that becomes what your saying is beyond me

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:25 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
La xinga wrote:Why should we encourage only non whites and women to vote?

It doesn't favor men, the people CHOOSE men, that's what democracy is about. It's not necessary to reduce the number, why should it be? Do we really care about race?

White privilege? I could say the same as T the I said, that he's white and male, but he has no privileges, cuz he ain't rich. It's $, not race or sex.


Whites are on average more privileged than minorities. True, there are rich black and brown people and poor whites but on average more whites have access to wealth than minorities do.

So instead of having people run cuz not white or woman MAYBE we could have poorer people run, since class does matter, unlike race or sex.
San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:Why should we encourage only non whites and women to vote?

It doesn't favor men, the people CHOOSE men, that's what democracy is about. It's not necessary to reduce the number, why should it be? Do we really care about race?

White privilege? I could say the same as T the I said, that he's white and male, but he has no privileges, cuz he ain't rich. It's $, not race or sex.

A lot of times only white men run. All anyone is saying is for more women and non whites to become candidates. How that becomes what your saying is beyond me

And why is that a problem that only white men run?
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:38 am

La xinga wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Whites are on average more privileged than minorities. True, there are rich black and brown people and poor whites but on average more whites have access to wealth than minorities do.

So instead of having people run cuz not white or woman MAYBE we could have poorer people run, since class does matter, unlike race or sex.
San Lumen wrote:A lot of times only white men run. All anyone is saying is for more women and non whites to become candidates. How that becomes what your saying is beyond me

And why is that a problem that only white men run?

You seriously can’t see the issue?

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:39 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:So instead of having people run cuz not white or woman MAYBE we could have poorer people run, since class does matter, unlike race or sex.

And why is that a problem that only white men run?

You seriously can’t see the issue?

No, I cannot, and I don't think I ever will, since I don't see race in a person, if I know him/her enough, I see the inside.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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San Lumen
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Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:11 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:You seriously can’t see the issue?

No, I cannot, and I don't think I ever will, since I don't see race in a person, if I know him/her enough, I see the inside.


Then your part of the problem. Ever seen a Republican convention? Its a sea of white men but that's not an issue in any way.
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:13 am

San Lumen wrote:Then your part of the problem.

Maybe it's yours?
San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:No, I cannot, and I don't think I ever will, since I don't see race in a person, if I know him/her enough, I see the inside.


Ever seen a Republican convention? Its a sea of white men but that's not an issue in any way.

Of course it's not.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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Rojava Free State
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19432
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:No, I cannot, and I don't think I ever will, since I don't see race in a person, if I know him/her enough, I see the inside.


Then your part of the problem. Ever seen a Republican convention? Its a sea of white men but that's not an issue in any way.


It's weird to me when I see a large group of people in America and everyone is the same race. Whether it's the Republican convention being all white, or Jay Z music videos being all black. Matter of fact the latter is kinda weirder cause New York has a shitload of hispanics and yet I never see one in his videos. I know Jay Z isn't anti esse so that only adds to the mystery.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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San Lumen
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Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:30 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Then your part of the problem.

Maybe it's yours?
San Lumen wrote:
Ever seen a Republican convention? Its a sea of white men but that's not an issue in any way.

Of course it's not.


A white man knows what its like to be pulled over and harassed by police? A man can understand what sexism and having medical decision and things like loans requiring fathers or spousal consent?

There is no issue with having mostly white men in elected office?

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:34 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:Maybe it's yours?

Of course it's not.


A white man knows what its like to be pulled over and harassed by police? A man can understand what sexism and having medical decision and things like loans requiring fathers or spousal consent?

There is no issue with having mostly white men in elected office?

1. To the first one, no. To all the rest, yes. And if one race is harassed more than others, even if they are not the one committing more crimes to proportion, does not mean they need more people in the gov.

2. No issue at all.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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Ors Might
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6796
Founded: Nov 01, 2016
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Ors Might » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:51 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:Maybe it's yours?

Of course it's not.


A white man knows what its like to be pulled over and harassed by police? A man can understand what sexism and having medical decision and things like loans requiring fathers or spousal consent?

There is no issue with having mostly white men in elected office?

As men do in fact face more violence than women in general, from both citizens and cops, I would assume that yeah, a white man would potentially know what it’s like to be pulled over and harassed by cops. As men face sexism, yeah they’d understand sexism. As for the medical thing, I think it’s highly dependent on state law but there have been instances of men requiring spousal consent to get things like a vasectomy. Can’t recall anything relating to loans though.
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Picairn
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Founded: Feb 21, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Picairn » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:52 am

Duvniask wrote:The fuck are you talking about? People in this thread consistently display it. They see the makeup of elected officials and then immediately assume it's natural and the way things should be. No thought given to how it got to that point.

Strawman and mischaracterization. They are arguing that these politicians are voted in by their constituents' judgements on their policies and character, which is the way things should be. What it shouldn't be is voting purely on race or gender without regard to policies or character. "I'm a woman" or "I'm a Hispanic" shouldn't be the only reason to vote for a candidate.

First, you need to practice your reading comprehension. I think it should be pretty clear from what I said that I was especially talking about forces that are unconscious. People may be disinclined to admit they prefer male leaders, but their attitudes toward leadership says otherwise. That and the structural barriers in the form of political gatekeepers.

Second, it has nothing to do with gripes about democracy, you just don't understand what the issue is. The issue is that election results are influenced by biases in voter preferences and biases in candidate selection on the part of parties, meaning the result could have been different, and our politics more representative, if these biases did not influence the outcome. It's like asking a doctor if they have an issue with your healthy body when they diagnose a disease impeding the functions of said body; no, they're telling you there is a problem with it that needs to be fixed for it to run optimally.

First, you need to stop lying. "Unconscious forces" that you originally cited, many are people's personal criterias on how they would vote for a politician i.e. "who the voters view as accurately representing their interests, who the voters view as being better on the issues (i.e. issue ownership) along with other things such as the person-factor (what kind of person is the candidate?)", like what you said.

Second, don't try to portray yourself as holier-than-thou with that smug, condescending "display" of intellectual supremacy. Every single person is biased towards a candidate they like, from their own judgements and criterias on the field of candidates available. Those biases form their decisions to vote accordingly, which is a part of democracy itself. That's why I asked if you had any gripes with democracy.

Someone has misunderstood the entire point.

And someone else is lying. Stop making excuses for your own gripes with people independently making up their own minds about who to vote for.
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San Lumen
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Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:00 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
A white man knows what its like to be pulled over and harassed by police? A man can understand what sexism and having medical decision and things like loans requiring fathers or spousal consent?

There is no issue with having mostly white men in elected office?

1. To the first one, no. To all the rest, yes. And if one race is harassed more than others, even if they are not the one committing more crimes to proportion, does not mean they need more people in the gov.

2. No issue at all.


Its quite astounding how luxurious your ivory tower is.

No one is calling for people to vote for someone because of their gender or race.

Do you know how LGBT rights came to the forefront? People like Harvey Milk became advocates and got elected to office. Without him the Briggs Initiative would have likely passed and the implications of that would have be horrifying. He inspired other LGBT people to become advocates and sometimes run for office.

The Briggs Initiative would have banned gays and lesbians from working in California's public schools and potentially anyone who supported LGBT rights
Last edited by San Lumen on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:04 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. To the first one, no. To all the rest, yes. And if one race is harassed more than others, even if they are not the one committing more crimes to proportion, does not mean they need more people in the gov.

2. No issue at all.


Its quite astounding how luxurious your ivory tower is.

No one is calling for people to vote for someone because of their gender or race.

Do you know how LGBT rights came to the forefront? People like Harvey Milk became advocates and got elected to office.

I'm the one living in an ivory tower? :roll: :roll: :roll:

And you think only LGBT people want rights for LGBT people?

Without him the Briggs Initiative would have likely passed and the implications of that would have be horrifying.

An opinion which I disagree with.
He inspired other LGBT people to run for office.

Neither good nor bad, unless people voted specifically because he/she was LGBT.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:08 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Its quite astounding how luxurious your ivory tower is.

No one is calling for people to vote for someone because of their gender or race.

Do you know how LGBT rights came to the forefront? People like Harvey Milk became advocates and got elected to office.

I'm the one living in an ivory tower? :roll: :roll: :roll:

And you think only LGBT people want rights for LGBT people?

Without him the Briggs Initiative would have likely passed and the implications of that would have be horrifying.

An opinion which I disagree with.
He inspired other LGBT people to run for office.

Neither good nor bad, unless people voted specifically because he/she was LGBT.

I never said that only LGBT people wanted it. Milk was the first openly gay man elected to office in the United States. Had he not been assassinated he likely would have become the first openly gay mayor.

Do you know what the Briggs Initiative was? I explained above what it would have done.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:16 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:I'm the one living in an ivory tower? :roll: :roll: :roll:

And you think only LGBT people want rights for LGBT people?


An opinion which I disagree with.

Neither good nor bad, unless people voted specifically because he/she was LGBT.

I never said that only LGBT people wanted it. Milk was the first openly gay man elected to office in the United States. Had he not been assassinated he likely would have become the first openly gay mayor.

Do you know what the Briggs Initiative was? I explained above what it would have done.

1. You have no evidence that f he was not elected, LGBT rights would never have happened.
2. I see, doesn't seem horrific, represents my views.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
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Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4516
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:24 am

Picairn wrote:
Duvniask wrote:The fuck are you talking about? People in this thread consistently display it. They see the makeup of elected officials and then immediately assume it's natural and the way things should be. No thought given to how it got to that point.

Strawman and mischaracterization. They are arguing that these politicians are voted in by their constituents' judgements on their policies and character, which is the way things should be. What it shouldn't be is voting purely on race or gender without regard to policies or character. "I'm a woman" or "I'm a Hispanic" shouldn't be the only reason to vote for a candidate.

It's not a strawman. They are indeed saying politicians are voted in by constituents' judgements; they then, just as you are here, go on to say or imply that is good and just and fair and the natural outcome, without paying any heed to what informs someone's judgement, i.e. not consider unconscious biases and societal attitudes that impact our judgement. It is the just-world fallacy through and through.

First, you need to practice your reading comprehension. I think it should be pretty clear from what I said that I was especially talking about forces that are unconscious. People may be disinclined to admit they prefer male leaders, but their attitudes toward leadership says otherwise. That and the structural barriers in the form of political gatekeepers.

Second, it has nothing to do with gripes about democracy, you just don't understand what the issue is. The issue is that election results are influenced by biases in voter preferences and biases in candidate selection on the part of parties, meaning the result could have been different, and our politics more representative, if these biases did not influence the outcome. It's like asking a doctor if they have an issue with your healthy body when they diagnose a disease impeding the functions of said body; no, they're telling you there is a problem with it that needs to be fixed for it to run optimally.

First, you need to stop lying. "Unconscious forces" that you originally cited, many are people's personal criterias on how they would vote for a politician i.e. "who the voters view as accurately representing their interests, who the voters view as being better on the issues (i.e. issue ownership) along with other things such as the person-factor (what kind of person is the candidate?)", like what you said.

And these personal criteria are influenced by society. It should not be hard to understand.

A voter X feels the politician's character (which is obviously not a completely objective evaluation, it's in part a gut-feeling) is important: they like people that come across as knowledgeable, diligent and qualified. Well what determines whether or not someone is perceived to be those things? That is in the realm of influence by unconscious biases. As you should be aware if you read the articles, people are more likely to perceive men this way, because these traits are regarded as masculine. This leads, all else being equal, to voter X feeling a man is more electable than a woman, in our example.

Second, don't try to portray yourself as holier-than-thou with that smug, condescending "display" of intellectual supremacy.

I'm not smug. It doesn't please me in the least to deal with stupid bullshit from people who aren't thinking outside the box at all. And I'm calling it out because this forum deserves better.

As for intellectual supremacy, well, I respect people who know what they're talking about, not people who dismiss expert knowledge in the field without having ever bothered to understand anything about it themselves.

Every single person is biased towards a candidate they like, from their own judgements and criterias on the field of candidates available. Those biases form their decisions to vote accordingly, which is a part of democracy itself. That's why I asked if you had any gripes with democracy.

Every single person has someone they like, no doubt, but why they like them is, empirically-speaking, influenced by stereotypes.

Imagine it like this: you have two people that want your friendship - one of them is a man, the other is a woman. You might prefer one over the other, but why? Do you prefer the man because he would objectively be a better friend to you, or is it because you have a bias that makes you select him, even though the woman might actually be the one whose friendship you would enjoy the most? Extend this analogy to politics, and you should be able to see that the problem lies not in the choice itself, but that our choice is impacted by undesirable attitudes. Absent these undesirable attitudes, we would still have a preference for friendship (duh), just as we would still have a preference for certain politicians. It is not about the bias of whether we like someone or not (some people really are just better than others), but about the bias impacting our judgment of who we prefer most.

Someone has misunderstood the entire point.

And someone else is lying. Stop making excuses for your own gripes with people independently making up their own minds about who to vote for.

They are not independent. They do not exist in a vacuum. Their judgement is informed by unconscious biases.
Last edited by Duvniask on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45871
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Left-wing Utopia

Postby San Lumen » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:26 am

La xinga wrote:
San Lumen wrote:I never said that only LGBT people wanted it. Milk was the first openly gay man elected to office in the United States. Had he not been assassinated he likely would have become the first openly gay mayor.

Do you know what the Briggs Initiative was? I explained above what it would have done.

1. You have no evidence that f he was not elected, LGBT rights would never have happened.
2. I see, doesn't seem horrific, represents my views.


That fact that you think the Briggs Initiative should have passed says it all about why you have no issue with a legislature or municipal government made up of almost all white men.

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La xinga
Minister
 
Posts: 3435
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby La xinga » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:28 am

San Lumen wrote:
La xinga wrote:1. You have no evidence that f he was not elected, LGBT rights would never have happened.
2. I see, doesn't seem horrific, represents my views.


That fact that you think the Briggs Initiative should have passed says it all about why you have no issue with a legislature or municipal government made up of almost all white men.

I know! It says that I'm a Conservative, and certain Conservatives like me don't believe diversity ain't do nothing.
He created everything, and he was forever and will always be. He is perfect and his word is always true. He will never change his word, and YOU would not be reading this signature if it was not for him to allow your eyes to see!
Average religious person. Nothing collided with nothing, the Almighty did everything, and the world is 5781 years old. Deal with it.
No, please don't argue! I'm innocent!

Yes, we may too, may all of us be innocent.

Unless you're not...

WAMP WAMP!
#KAG2020

If you support capitalism, put this in your signature.
Hi, The east pacific!
GLORIOUS AMERICANIUM IMPERIUM!
Creationist, pro-life, straight.
ALL LIVES MATTER!

Nation in TEP. Don't endorse me if I am over 400 endos. Still a long way to go!

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