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Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Skirmishes

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:47 am

Duvniask wrote:Asking why we should care about the potentiality of war between two countries and updates on a conflict that has lasted for 30 years on a political forum.

Wat.

It's a legitimate question. That conflict has, as you say been going for 30 years now. What has changed to make it relevant to the world today?

Sundiata wrote:Like you and I, they're human beings.

So what? I don't care about every human on the planet. That would be troublesome.
Human death and suffering is about as exceptional on this earth as sand and sun in the Sahara.

Diopolis wrote:Armenia is probably the one Russian ally that Russia'll actually stick up for. Turkey is a full Nato member that gives lip service- and occasionally more than that- to supporting Azerbaijan no matter how far it goes.
Oh, and the Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russian troops.

So if things go hot we might get Turks and Russians shooting at each other like they already are in Syria? Seriously if OTAN didn't come to blows over this sort of stuff in Korea it sure as hell won't here.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Nationalism is hollow without it eventually leading to a concern and interest in the prosperity of all humans. Solidarity is important.

It's not about nationalism. It's about the fact that they are far away and frankly if they all just went ahead and murdered each other to the last man, woman, child and goat the actual net effect on me would be zero. I don't know anyone from there. I don't rely on any business from there for supplies or the buyers there for my income. They are literally not connected to me. If anything strictly speaking it would probably be positive on the grounds that there would be fewer people depleting the planets resources and creating greenhouse gasses and stuff.
Last edited by Purpelia on Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:41 am

Purpelia wrote:[...]It's about the fact that they are far away and frankly if they all just went ahead and murdered each other to the last man, woman, child and goat the actual net effect on me would be zero.
The Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict has incentives for Azerbaijan to never drag this into a full scale war, though if they did it would be a clear ww3 flashpoint. If Azerbaijan attempted to conquer Armenia, there would be immediate Russian intervention. If Turkey gets involved as a NATO country, in theory Turkey can demand NATO intervention. If NATO gets involved the opportunities for escalation are pretty wide. So you would care when the nukes hypothetically start flying right at you.

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:03 am

New Rogernomics wrote:
Purpelia wrote:[...]It's about the fact that they are far away and frankly if they all just went ahead and murdered each other to the last man, woman, child and goat the actual net effect on me would be zero.
The Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict has incentives for Azerbaijan to never drag this into a full scale war, though if they did it would be a clear ww3 flashpoint. If Azerbaijan attempted to conquer Armenia, there would be immediate Russian intervention. If Turkey gets involved as a NATO country, in theory Turkey can demand NATO intervention. If NATO gets involved the opportunities for escalation are pretty wide. So you would care when the nukes hypothetically start flying right at you.

Except that's a joke and you know it. OTAN didn't go to war in Korea, it didn't go to war in Vietnam and it didn't go to war last year when you had american jets bombing Russian bases in Syria. Rule #1 of the cold war (and yes, it is still going) is that both sides agree to fight it out via skirmishes and dead third party babies instead of going nuclear.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:07 am

Crockerland wrote:
New Rogernomics wrote: There never has been peace, only a cease-fire. Azerbaijan and Turkey imposed a blockade on Armenia contrary what is permitted by international law, and there have been continuous border skirmishes.

It seems international law does not apply to Islamic countries.

It wasn't a full blockade. Armenia had access to international markets through Georgia and Iran.
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:02 am

Diviz wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Especially since the last reminder was Gorbachev's Operation Ring, which took place in 1991 and was widely reviled, and justifiably so, by the Armenian Community.

So Russians are more pro-Armenian in the issue with the Azeris? Azerbaijan used to also be part of the USSR.


Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:53 am

Shofercia wrote:
Diviz wrote:So Russians are more pro-Armenian in the issue with the Azeris? Azerbaijan used to also be part of the USSR.


Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.
Armenian terrorist groups are the ones who killed civilian Turks in the region. sample 'ASALA' If Armenia wants peace, it should not shoot its brothers from behind. I am ashamed of the Nazi racist idiology
Last edited by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum on Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:58 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.
Armenian terrorist groups are the ones who killed civilian Turks in the region. sample 'ASALA' If Armenia wants peace, it should not shoot its brothers from behind. I am ashamed of the Nazi racist idiology


Oh, found the Turk/Azeri.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:22 pm

Crockerland wrote:It seems international law does not apply to Islamic countries.

International law only applies between great powers and only when they deal with each other. Small countries basically have no protection unless a great power is willing to stand up for them. And that often comes at a price not worth paying. Not that it's an offer you get to refuse. And this isn't anything new either. Look up the Milian Dialogue.
Last edited by Purpelia on Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:38 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.
Armenian terrorist groups are the ones who killed civilian Turks in the region. sample 'ASALA' If Armenia wants peace, it should not shoot its brothers from behind. I am ashamed of the Nazi racist idiology


Asala's last attack was in 1997. The organization was founded amidst a Civil War in Lebanon, where Christians were being expelled. When you attempt to go after the same people twice, consequences tend to happen. I'm not, in any way justifying what they did, but if you treat a group of people like the Joker, they become the Joker. The organization started with a Genocide Survivor killing two diplomats for lying about Genocide, an act of pure raw emotion. It gained steam in the midst of a Christianophobic Civil War. And it's last attack was in 1997. Not entirely sure how said actions, which ended in 1997, justify Turkish/Azeri anger to this day.

A more recent event occurred in 2004, when an Azeri soldier murdered an Armenia soldier during NATO's joint exercise by chopping up his body, while the Armenian was asleep:

Ramil Sahib oglu Safarov (Azerbaijani: Ramil Sahib oğlu Səfərov, [ɾɑˈmil sɑˈhip oɣˈlu sæˈfæɾof]), born August 25, 1977, is an officer of the Azerbaijani Army who was convicted of the 2004 murder of Armenian Army Lieutenant Gurgen Margaryan. During a NATO-sponsored training seminar in Budapest, Safarov broke into Margaryan's dormitory room at night and axed Margaryan to death while he was asleep.


He was convicted of first degree murder, and received a life sentence, to be served in Hungary. Azerbaijan started lobbying for his extradition. When the murderer was extradited in 2012, he was pardoned by Aliev, and greeted as a hero. Armenia broke off relations with Hungary over the transfer.

So if you're willing to impute the crimes of Armenians that were shell shocked by Genocide and genuine, hard core discrimination onto all of Armenians, going by that "logic", shouldn't we also impute Aliev's pardon onto all of Azeris? No? Then maybe we can all recognize the Genocide and stop the bullshit.
Last edited by Shofercia on Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:18 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I'm sure Recep Tayyip Erdogan the Turkish supremacist would be more than willing to take advantage of the situation just to kill Armenians. This man probably mourns the Armenian genocide only in the sense that they didn't successfully wipe every Armenian out. He's a racist and a tyrant on a mission to bring death to locations across the middle east. Armenia needs to watch out.

The Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russia IIRC. It'd be retarded for Turkey to attack it.


Although I find it highly unlikely Turkey would, still something being stupid never stopped Erdogan.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:24 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Asking why we should care about the potentiality of war between two countries and updates on a conflict that has lasted for 30 years on a political forum.

Wat.

It's a legitimate question. That conflict has, as you say been going for 30 years now. What has changed to make it relevant to the world today?

Sundiata wrote:Like you and I, they're human beings.

So what? I don't care about every human on the planet. That would be troublesome.
Human death and suffering is about as exceptional on this earth as sand and sun in the Sahara.

Diopolis wrote:Armenia is probably the one Russian ally that Russia'll actually stick up for. Turkey is a full Nato member that gives lip service- and occasionally more than that- to supporting Azerbaijan no matter how far it goes.
Oh, and the Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russian troops.

So if things go hot we might get Turks and Russians shooting at each other like they already are in Syria? Seriously if OTAN didn't come to blows over this sort of stuff in Korea it sure as hell won't here.

Ostroeuropa wrote:Nationalism is hollow without it eventually leading to a concern and interest in the prosperity of all humans. Solidarity is important.

It's not about nationalism. It's about the fact that they are far away and frankly if they all just went ahead and murdered each other to the last man, woman, child and goat the actual net effect on me would be zero. I don't know anyone from there. I don't rely on any business from there for supplies or the buyers there for my income. They are literally not connected to me. If anything strictly speaking it would probably be positive on the grounds that there would be fewer people depleting the planets resources and creating greenhouse gasses and stuff.


This is quite an exceptionally misanthropic and nihilistic statement to make.
Sure you can say that is it unlikely for things to change.

But still saying it more positive for them to die because you will not be personally harmed is pretty messed up.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:27 pm

New Rogernomics wrote:
Purpelia wrote:[...]It's about the fact that they are far away and frankly if they all just went ahead and murdered each other to the last man, woman, child and goat the actual net effect on me would be zero.
The Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict has incentives for Azerbaijan to never drag this into a full scale war, though if they did it would be a clear ww3 flashpoint. If Azerbaijan attempted to conquer Armenia, there would be immediate Russian intervention. If Turkey gets involved as a NATO country, in theory Turkey can demand NATO intervention. If NATO gets involved the opportunities for escalation are pretty wide. So you would care when the nukes hypothetically start flying right at you.


NATO only applies to attacks on soil under NATO protection. If a NATO country gets involved in a war outside NATO covered areas, then NATO does not necessarily apply.

See for example the Falklands War.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:44 pm

Novus America wrote:
New Rogernomics wrote: The Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict has incentives for Azerbaijan to never drag this into a full scale war, though if they did it would be a clear ww3 flashpoint. If Azerbaijan attempted to conquer Armenia, there would be immediate Russian intervention. If Turkey gets involved as a NATO country, in theory Turkey can demand NATO intervention. If NATO gets involved the opportunities for escalation are pretty wide. So you would care when the nukes hypothetically start flying right at you.


NATO only applies to attacks on soil under NATO protection. If a NATO country gets involved in a war outside NATO covered areas, then NATO does not necessarily apply.

See for example the Falklands War.
Who needs NATO and others ? Light of justice is sufficient for the Turkish nation. my only foundation is that brothers don't war ,the real enemy is political Islam ignorance
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:49 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Novus America wrote:
NATO only applies to attacks on soil under NATO protection. If a NATO country gets involved in a war outside NATO covered areas, then NATO does not necessarily apply.

See for example the Falklands War.
Who needs NATO and others ? Light of justice is sufficient for the Turkish nation. my only foundation is that brothers don't war ,the real enemy is political Islam ignorance
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Because without allies, it is highly unlikely Turkey would be successful in such an end endeavor regardless of what you think it is the “light of justice”.

Just have you think something just does not mean it will be successful (and I fail to see what justice you are talking about anyways, are you saying you do want a war or not?).
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Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:16 pm

Novus America wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Who needs NATO and others ? Light of justice is sufficient for the Turkish nation. my only foundation is that brothers don't war ,the real enemy is political Islam ignorance


Because without allies, it is highly unlikely Turkey would be successful in such an end endeavor regardless of what you think it is the “light of justice”.

Just have you think something just does not mean it will be successful (and I fail to see what justice you are talking about anyways, are you saying you do want a war or not?).
The way of justice should be through diplomacy, again I say brothers should not fight. the light of justice is not about power, it's about talking the truth :hug:
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Because without allies, it is highly unlikely Turkey would be successful in such an end endeavor regardless of what you think it is the “light of justice”.

Just have you think something just does not mean it will be successful (and I fail to see what justice you are talking about anyways, are you saying you do want a war or not?).
The way of justice should be through diplomacy, again I say brothers should not fight. the light of justice is not about power, it's about talking the truth :hug:

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:28 pm

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Because without allies, it is highly unlikely Turkey would be successful in such an end endeavor regardless of what you think it is the “light of justice”.

Just have you think something just does not mean it will be successful (and I fail to see what justice you are talking about anyways, are you saying you do want a war or not?).
The way of justice should be through diplomacy, again I say brothers should not fight. the light of justice is not about power, it's about talking the truth :hug:


Talking “truth” (when there are many subjective value judgments here) without having power does not actually get anything done.

I could solve many problems if I had power, but my talk has no actual impact on anything because I have no power.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Postby Sundiata » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:01 pm

Novus America wrote:So what? I don't care about every human on the planet. That would be troublesome.
Human death and suffering is about as exceptional on this earth as sand and sun in the Sahara.

Everyone matters; everyone's suffering matters. The distinction between right and wrong is not hard to make.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:37 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Novus America wrote:So what? I don't care about every human on the planet. That would be troublesome.
Human death and suffering is about as exceptional on this earth as sand and sun in the Sahara.

Everyone matters; everyone's suffering matters. The distinction between right and wrong is not hard to make.


You messed up the quotes. I did not write that, I criticized that.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Postby Shanghai industrial complex » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:10 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Because without allies, it is highly unlikely Turkey would be successful in such an end endeavor regardless of what you think it is the “light of justice”.

Just have you think something just does not mean it will be successful (and I fail to see what justice you are talking about anyways, are you saying you do want a war or not?).
The way of justice should be through diplomacy, again I say brothers should not fight. the light of justice is not about power, it's about talking the truth :hug:

Brothers should not fight,unless they support the Caliphate of another school.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:26 am

Shofercia wrote:
Diviz wrote:So Russians are more pro-Armenian in the issue with the Azeris? Azerbaijan used to also be part of the USSR.


Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.


That and Armenia's culture and religion is much more similar to Russia's, whereas the Russo-Azeri relationship is simply one of convenience.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby W erp » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:42 am

Yes Azerbaijan behaves terribly alot but can we not give the Armenians a blank check for all the shit they got away with? Ethnically cleansing Karabakh and then pretending that the whole of it (not just the Armenian areas) is their manifest destiny - definitely unproblematic behavior we should all condone.

Shofercia wrote:
Diviz wrote:So Russians are more pro-Armenian in the issue with the Azeris? Azerbaijan used to also be part of the USSR.


Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.

Ah, Caucasian domino theory. I remember arguing with you about this years ago.
Last edited by W erp on Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Sundiata » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:52 am

Novus America wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Everyone matters; everyone's suffering matters. The distinction between right and wrong is not hard to make.


You messed up the quotes. I did not write that, I criticized that.

I apologise.
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Shofercia
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Posts: 30029
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:20 am

W erp wrote:Yes Azerbaijan behaves terribly alot but can we not give the Armenians a blank check for all the shit they got away with? Ethnically cleansing Karabakh and then pretending that the whole of it (not just the Armenian areas) is their manifest destiny - definitely unproblematic behavior we should all condone.

Shofercia wrote:
Russia wants peace in the Caucasus, because if there's war - Russia's going to get involved and have casualties, so better to nip the issue in the bud right away. Azerbaijan tends to start shit in the region; Armenia doesn't. Math's fairly simple. Plus, Armenia's a more reliable ally than Azerbaijan.

Ah, Caucasian domino theory. I remember arguing with you about this years ago.


Russia didn't give Armenia a black check; Russia said that Armenia will be defended, if Armenia's attacked on its de facto soil. That's not a blank check to go and raid Baku. The issue with Germany's blank check to Austria-Hungary, was that Austria-Hungary used it to annex Serbia, even though Serbia met 9.5/10 of Austria's insane demands, with the Serbs asking that an international court, rather than Austria-Hungary's biased court, handle the case. That was the only objection.

Serbia: "yes, we'll meet the prosecutor's insane demands, but can we please have a fair and unbiased Judge?"
Austria-Hungary: "WAR! YOU WANT WAR! YOU SHALL HAVE WAR!"
Rest of Europe: "well... shit, I guess we're doing this"

As for what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh, something similar happened in Nakhichkevan in reverse. Now there are so few Armenians in Nakhichkevan, and so few Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh, that they can all be picked up by a single plane. And the tensions that led to the crisis were exacerbated by Gorbachev's Operation Ring.
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Exalted Inquellian State
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Posts: 1266
Founded: Apr 30, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Exalted Inquellian State » Tue Jul 21, 2020 1:44 pm

Shofercia wrote:
W erp wrote:Yes Azerbaijan behaves terribly alot but can we not give the Armenians a blank check for all the shit they got away with? Ethnically cleansing Karabakh and then pretending that the whole of it (not just the Armenian areas) is their manifest destiny - definitely unproblematic behavior we should all condone.


Ah, Caucasian domino theory. I remember arguing with you about this years ago.


Russia didn't give Armenia a black check; Russia said that Armenia will be defended, if Armenia's attacked on its de facto soil. That's not a blank check to go and raid Baku. The issue with Germany's blank check to Austria-Hungary, was that Austria-Hungary used it to annex Serbia, even though Serbia met 9.5/10 of Austria's insane demands, with the Serbs asking that an international court, rather than Austria-Hungary's biased court, handle the case. That was the only objection.

Serbia: "yes, we'll meet the prosecutor's insane demands, but can we please have a fair and unbiased Judge?"
Austria-Hungary: "WAR! YOU WANT WAR! YOU SHALL HAVE WAR!"
Rest of Europe: "well... shit, I guess we're doing this"

As for what happened in Nagorno-Karabakh, something similar happened in Nakhichkevan in reverse. Now there are so few Armenians in Nakhichkevan, and so few Azeris in Nagorno-Karabakh, that they can all be picked up by a single plane. And the tensions that led to the crisis were exacerbated by Gorbachev's Operation Ring.

Not to go off topic, but Wilhelm II arrived from vacation on July 28th-when Austria-Hungary declared war. He looked at the Serbian list and said that there was no reason to go to war. If he arrived a bit earlier, the blank check would likely be gone. Also, my source is Extra Credits' video from 2014.

Just saying.
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