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Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Skirmishes

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Grootfries Rijk
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Postby Grootfries Rijk » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:47 am

Major-Tom wrote:The Caucasus: AKA, The Diet Balkans.

Don't really know what to say here, wish Turkey would stop being such a malicious actor, but we know that'll never happen.

I mean, its not really a secret why Erdogan is so invested in a conflict between Azeris and Armenians, though I must admit my own personal biases might be coming into play here when I say Turkey will always be a malicious actor where a non-Turkic neighbor of Turkey is concerned.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:44 am

New Rogernomics wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:It's almost as though recognised borders rely (rightly or wrongly) on diplomacy and consensus rather than 'hey there's some guys with guns over there so let's re-draw the map.'

For example parts of Kurdistan are (or were) independent and the mainstream media readily accepts this fact, and yet they still wouldn't actually draw 'Kurdistan' on the map because it's not the media's job to draw maps. Likewise, both France 24 and Al Jazeera haven't pretended that Nagorno Karabakh is actually under the control of Azerbaijan.
Do we have to agree that every news organization you like is 100% accurate or you get angry over it, and start acting like the folks disagreeing with one line in the article think the whole article is bunk? As that's what I am seeing right now.


No one's angry, I just think it's peculiar how a reporter is allegedly inept just for following convention.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:47 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby Diopolis » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:00 am

Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.

Armenia is probably the one Russian ally that Russia'll actually stick up for. Turkey is a full Nato member that gives lip service- and occasionally more than that- to supporting Azerbaijan no matter how far it goes.
Oh, and the Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russian troops.
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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:19 am

Business as usual. I don’t see anything noteworthy here
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Postby Duvniask » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:27 am

Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.

Asking why we should care about the potentiality of war between two countries and updates on a conflict that has lasted for 30 years on a political forum.

Wat.
Last edited by Duvniask on Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vistulange
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Postby Vistulange » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:34 am

SD_Film Artists wrote:
Vistulange wrote:No.

Nobody in Turkey gives a shit about Azerbaijan and Armenia beyond a few tweets and Instagram posts.


I thought they'd care at least a bit about their closest ally with ethnic ties, though yes I'd also be surprised if Turkey declared war over it unless Armenia were doing really really well.

Nobody aside from a fringe few nationalist groups takes the whole ethnic thing seriously, that is, more than a tweet or a Facebook post. Certainly not enough to take action over it, unless, as you said, Armenia did really well. Maybe a strongly worded condemnation in that case.

Rojava Free State wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:
I thought they'd care at least a bit about their closest ally with ethnic ties, though yes I'd also be surprised if Turkey declared war over it unless Armenia were doing really really well.


I'm sure Recep Tayyip Erdogan the Turkish supremacist would be more than willing to take advantage of the situation just to kill Armenians. This man probably mourns the Armenian genocide only in the sense that they didn't successfully wipe every Armenian out. He's a racist and a tyrant on a mission to bring death to locations across the middle east. Armenia needs to watch out.

And, of course, Rojava intentionally spreading misinformation. Again.
Grootfries Rijk wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:The Caucasus: AKA, The Diet Balkans.

Don't really know what to say here, wish Turkey would stop being such a malicious actor, but we know that'll never happen.

I mean, its not really a secret why Erdogan is so invested in a conflict between Azeris and Armenians, though I must admit my own personal biases might be coming into play here when I say Turkey will always be a malicious actor where a non-Turkic neighbor of Turkey is concerned.

It's probably your biases.

Assuming that the premise Erdoğan is "so invested" is true: Why is Erdoğan so invested in a conflict between Azeris and Armenians? It's a big secret to me.
Last edited by Vistulange on Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:58 am

Diopolis wrote:
Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.

Armenia is probably the one Russian ally that Russia'll actually stick up for. Turkey is a full Nato member that gives lip service- and occasionally more than that- to supporting Azerbaijan no matter how far it goes.
Oh, and the Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russian troops.


Since both Armenia and Azerbaijan are in the Russian-lead Eurasian Economic Union Russia would prefer both countries to return to the cease-fire and be good trading partners, but yes if it really comes to total war then Russia would firmly back Armenia.
Last edited by SD_Film Artists on Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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When anybody preaches disunity, tries to pit one of us against each other through class warfare, race hatred, or religious intolerance, you know that person seeks to rob us of our freedom and destroy our very lives.


Charlie Brooker wrote:It's spider season. Every year, right about now, thousands of the godless eight-legged bastards emerge from the bowels of hell (or the garden, whichever's nearest) with the sole intention of tormenting humankind. Spider season is like a live-action version of the videogame Doom.

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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:00 am

Duvniask wrote:
Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.

Asking why we should care about the potentiality of war between two countries and updates on a conflict that has lasted for 30 years on a political forum.

Wat.

It’s nothing new, Armenia and Azerbaijan (their past equivalents) have been at each other’s throats for centuries, apart from the time they were together under Russian rule. Border skirmishes happen very often
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:04 am

Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.

Like you and I, they're human beings.
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:09 am

Nobody talks about the Khojaly Massacre. Turkey should support their brothers instead of libya >:(
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Postby Rio Cana » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:36 am

Like I have read in some other sources, this skirmish seems more like a political ploy of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijans economy relies on oil sales. With the current oil price drops and the virus shutting down whole nations economy resulting in cuts in oil demand, Azerbaijans economy has been hard hit. This means the national budget needs to be greatly trimmed. This will cause public unrest. Add the corruption and political problems, they are far from being truly democratic, and you get a recipe for major problems in the making. The only way out is to use the Armenia card. War tends to bring people together in support of the government. This use of the Armenia card means that has long has they can profit politically (internal politics) by pulling out this card that they will not be in a hurry to resolve this.

Read this on the corruption - https://emerging-europe.com/news/no-sur ... standards/

Read this on the economy. They also mention the excuse of using Armenia when things do not go there way.
https://wgi.world/irreplaceable-losses- ... ronavirus/
Last edited by Rio Cana on Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Rio Cana » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:46 am

Diopolis wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I'm sure Recep Tayyip Erdogan the Turkish supremacist would be more than willing to take advantage of the situation just to kill Armenians. This man probably mourns the Armenian genocide only in the sense that they didn't successfully wipe every Armenian out. He's a racist and a tyrant on a mission to bring death to locations across the middle east. Armenia needs to watch out.

The Turkish-Armenian border is guarded by Russia IIRC. It'd be retarded for Turkey to attack it.


Turkey has around a 15 km. (9 miles) border with Nakhchivan (Western Azerbaijan, its an exclave of Azerbaijan). Turkey has been really interested Nakhchivan. Which means unless the Russians are also guarding Armenias border with Western Azerbaijan, Turkey could use Nakhchivan to get at Armenia.

Map - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... n-assr.gif
Last edited by Rio Cana on Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:51 am

Purpelia wrote:What I don't understand is why we should care. I mean, worst comes to worst some random foreigners murder each other a bunch.


Nationalism is hollow without it eventually leading to a concern and interest in the prosperity of all humans. Solidarity is important.


We must tend to ourselves, our communities, our nations, and then, to our neighbours. From there, we continue to expand until our agency and influence spans the stars. If you believe we are not in a place to do anything about it, it should serve as a signal that it is not only us who depends upon our revival and our national resurgance, but our neighbors. Our prosperity and success is not just for us, but for our international community, it is a motivating force.

I can understand this serving as a signal that we must intensify our efforts to be nationalist and return to nationalism, such that we can be strong, independent, actors who take a stance in these issues, who use our agency and lnfluence to help others and that we do not currently possess the agency to do much about it. I cannot understand a "I do not care" approach.

We should support all peoples of all nations having agency and nation, in the understanding they will do the same. If they do not, they are the enemy, and must be isolated in the manner you indicate. Cut off from our concern and pounced upon in moments of weakness.

But the Armenians and Azerbaijani's are small nations, lacking the means to do anything but self-determine. They lack the means to impose upon us a lack of nationhood and agency. They are not our enemies. Their freedom and dignity and agency is an inevitable and unavoidable consequence of ethical nationalism. We have to care, even if you believe we can do nothing. It should serve to harden our hearts and to make us more determined to return to a nationalist ethos.

I would suggest to you that your lack of concern is comparable to a lack of concern along capitalist grounds for the poor. How the poor go about agency, what their view of it is, must not be imposed. The tools and safety to achieve control over their own lives is the goal, and so it must be for the smaller nations along the line of "Me, family, community, nation, humanity".

I accept that we can largely do nothing about it, because of the rule of Globalists, of Capitalists, of the Neoliberals and their kind, but the suffering of our neighbors is as I said, reason to harden our hearts. It is often easier to excuse injustice done to ones self due to our awareness of the bias of our perspective, but to see injustice done to another from the same source clarifies an issue.

Nationalism must be a view on the best arrangement for mankind rather than the pursuit of selfish self-interest, or what is it for?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Postby Vistulange » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:42 pm

Rio Cana wrote:Like I have read in some other sources, this skirmish seems more like a political ploy of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijans economy relies on oil sales. With the current oil price drops and the virus shutting down whole nations economy resulting in cuts in oil demand, Azerbaijans economy has been hard hit. This means the national budget needs to be greatly trimmed. This will cause public unrest. Add the corruption and political problems, they are far from being truly democratic, and you get a recipe for major problems in the making. The only way out is to use the Armenia card. War tends to bring people together in support of the government. This use of the Armenia card means that has long has they can profit politically (internal politics) by pulling out this card that they will not be in a hurry to resolve this.

Read this on the corruption - https://emerging-europe.com/news/no-sur ... standards/

Read this on the economy. They also mention the excuse of using Armenia when things do not go there way.
https://wgi.world/irreplaceable-losses- ... ronavirus/

This makes a bit more sense. Granted, distractions only serve you so much, after a certain while, that's not going to offset the decrease in public goods. Case in point, Turkey itself.

Still, the Aliyevs can't go fast enough. As flawed as Armenia may be, it's still a lot closer to a liberal democracy than Azerbaijan. To hell with nationalistic crap - nationalist crap doesn't generally lead to a better standard of living.
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Postby Shofercia » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:52 pm

Vistulange wrote:
Grootfries Rijk wrote:I mean, its not really a secret why Erdogan is so invested in a conflict between Azeris and Armenians, though I must admit my own personal biases might be coming into play here when I say Turkey will always be a malicious actor where a non-Turkic neighbor of Turkey is concerned.

It's probably your biases.

Assuming that the premise Erdoğan is "so invested" is true: Why is Erdoğan so invested in a conflict between Azeris and Armenians? It's a big secret to me.


Why's Erdogan feuding with Egypt over Libya? What Turkish interests are in that country? He reminds me of Napoleon the Third, who wanted a war for the sake of glory, and ended up getting Prussianed up the ass by Bismarck. I don't think Erdogan's invested in that conflict; I think he just sees it as an opportunity for glory.


Vistulange wrote:
Rio Cana wrote:Like I have read in some other sources, this skirmish seems more like a political ploy of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijans economy relies on oil sales. With the current oil price drops and the virus shutting down whole nations economy resulting in cuts in oil demand, Azerbaijans economy has been hard hit. This means the national budget needs to be greatly trimmed. This will cause public unrest. Add the corruption and political problems, they are far from being truly democratic, and you get a recipe for major problems in the making. The only way out is to use the Armenia card. War tends to bring people together in support of the government. This use of the Armenia card means that has long has they can profit politically (internal politics) by pulling out this card that they will not be in a hurry to resolve this.

Read this on the corruption - https://emerging-europe.com/news/no-sur ... standards/

Read this on the economy. They also mention the excuse of using Armenia when things do not go there way.
https://wgi.world/irreplaceable-losses- ... ronavirus/

This makes a bit more sense. Granted, distractions only serve you so much, after a certain while, that's not going to offset the decrease in public goods. Case in point, Turkey itself.

Still, the Aliyevs can't go fast enough. As flawed as Armenia may be, it's still a lot closer to a liberal democracy than Azerbaijan. To hell with nationalistic crap - nationalist crap doesn't generally lead to a better standard of living.


That's certainly a reason for Azerbaijan to start shit with Armenia, and I agree with you in that those who raise the Standard of Living, be they liberal or illiberal, tend to gain the support of the voters.
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Postby Vistulange » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:58 pm

Shofercia wrote:Why's Erdogan feuding with Egypt over Libya? What Turkish interests are in that country? He reminds me of Napoleon the Third, who wanted a war for the sake of glory, and ended up getting Prussianed up the ass by Bismarck. I don't think Erdogan's invested in that conflict; I think he just sees it as an opportunity for glory.

Pretty much my point. I disagree with the whole premise: Erdoğan isn't even remotely interested in the conflict, that is if he's even been made aware beyond "we should probably issue some condemnation from your official Twitter account, by the way, and commemorate the Azeri dead".

Libya, on the other hand, I'm not sure of. The general AKP line around here seems to be that Erdoğan is after natural gas and petroleum in the region to magically channel that fossil fuel wealth into the economy. The AKP lot generally don't put a lot of thought into the costs and time it takes to actually turn petroleum and natural gas into bountiful revenue to begin with.

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Yep, nothing, aside from a tired old soundbite squeezed after the Hagia Sophia debacle: "We will not leave brother Azerbaijan alone", "I have been discussing with Mr Aliyev", et cetera, et cetera.
Last edited by Vistulange on Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Crockerland » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:13 pm

New Rogernomics wrote:
SD_Film Artists wrote:After some years of peace the Nagorno Karabakh conflict has been restarted again.[..]
There never has been peace, only a cease-fire. Azerbaijan and Turkey imposed a blockade on Armenia contrary what is permitted by international law, and there have been continuous border skirmishes.

It seems international law does not apply to Islamic countries.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:27 pm

Crockerland wrote:
New Rogernomics wrote: There never has been peace, only a cease-fire. Azerbaijan and Turkey imposed a blockade on Armenia contrary what is permitted by international law, and there have been continuous border skirmishes.

It seems international law does not apply to Islamic countries.


You know as well as i do that next to no one gets punished for breaking international law. It isnt an Islamic thing.
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Postby Luziyca » Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:22 pm

If this is anything like all the other potential conflicts in 2020 (Iran, DPRK, India, just to name a few), this going to just be massive massive buildup, and then the writer is just like "fuck it" and makes something so anticlimactic that it makes the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion look like a proper climax.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pm

Luziyca wrote:If this is anything like all the other potential conflicts in 2020 (Iran, DPRK, India, just to name a few), this going to just be massive massive buildup, and then the writer is just like "fuck it" and makes something so anticlimactic that it makes the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion look like a proper climax.

The writer is too focused on building up for the grand finale of the pandemic to work much on anything else.
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Postby Senkaku » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:12 pm

not the like fourth gen armenian girl from LA at my school who only sleeps with law students being totally radio silent on the pandemic and the protests but going all over facebook to post about Azerbaijani aggression... what a diaspora, I tell you
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Luziyca
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Postby Luziyca » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:15 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Luziyca wrote:If this is anything like all the other potential conflicts in 2020 (Iran, DPRK, India, just to name a few), this going to just be massive massive buildup, and then the writer is just like "fuck it" and makes something so anticlimactic that it makes the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion look like a proper climax.

The writer is too focused on building up for the grand finale of the pandemic to work much on anything else.

Probably. I'm betting it's going to be something like the second coming or whatever, and it will all tie everything in together nicely.
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Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:27 pm

Senkaku wrote:not the like fourth gen armenian girl from LA at my school who only sleeps with law students being totally radio silent on the pandemic and the protests but going all over facebook to post about Azerbaijani aggression... what a diaspora, I tell you


Systemic oppression and genocide tend to leave their cultural legacies.

Jews are just as hyper-aware of potential and realized oppression towards their own people.
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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:21 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Senkaku wrote:not the like fourth gen armenian girl from LA at my school who only sleeps with law students being totally radio silent on the pandemic and the protests but going all over facebook to post about Azerbaijani aggression... what a diaspora, I tell you


Systemic oppression and genocide tend to leave their cultural legacies.

Jews are just as hyper-aware of potential and realized oppression towards their own people.


Especially since the last reminder was Gorbachev's Operation Ring, which took place in 1991 and was widely reviled, and justifiably so, by the Armenian Community.
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Vistulange
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vistulange » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:55 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Senkaku wrote:not the like fourth gen armenian girl from LA at my school who only sleeps with law students being totally radio silent on the pandemic and the protests but going all over facebook to post about Azerbaijani aggression... what a diaspora, I tell you


Systemic oppression and genocide tend to leave their cultural legacies.

Especially in diasporas - it's by no means unique to the Armenian diaspora, or necessarily restricted to particular heinous histories of oppression and genocide. It's quite common to see diasporas coalescing and focusing around tragedies, at least relative to the people living in the respective countries.
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