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The End of American Hegemony (Or at Least Global Influence)

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:40 pm

Bulgar Rouge wrote:China will eventually replace the US, the trajectory is more or less clear and there aren't many factors that point to American resurgence or geopolitical vitality. The fact that America needs to strong-arm its own European "allies" into specific buying decisions just indicates total desperation.


Name a single mainland Chinese brand that even remotely compares to the average American brand, to say nothing of popular culture. Therein lies the reason why China will never overtake the US.

On top of that, their demographics are so atrocious it's scary, for them at least. Good for us though.
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:43 pm

Organized States wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:In 1991, the US was able to defeat the world's 5th most powerful (non-allied) military in the world in fewer than 100 hours in a ground war. If you think the US could do that today, you are delusional.

I’m not. It’s part of my job and I can tell you we can do it in 72. We’re probably at our apex in terms of the ability to hunt and kill other human beings. We have better training and better or on par equipment with the rest of the planet. Plus we’ve created a generation of senior leaders and NCOs who have all seen combat and are experienced in conducting high-tempo operations across multiple continents simultaneously.

Could we be better? Absol-fucking-utely and I hope we do.

Okay lol, the actual department of defense disagrees with you.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:44 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Bulgar Rouge wrote:China will eventually replace the US, the trajectory is more or less clear and there aren't many factors that point to American resurgence or geopolitical vitality. The fact that America needs to strong-arm its own European "allies" into specific buying decisions just indicates total desperation.


Name a single mainland Chinese brand that even remotely compares to the average American brand, to say nothing of popular culture. Therein lies the reason why China will never overtake the US.

On top of that, their demographics are so atrocious it's scary, for them at least. Good for us though.

The Chinese economy is far larger than the US economy, but no, your "brands" mean that the largest economy in human history can "never overtake" the US.
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Duvniask
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:48 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Bulgar Rouge wrote:China will eventually replace the US, the trajectory is more or less clear and there aren't many factors that point to American resurgence or geopolitical vitality. The fact that America needs to strong-arm its own European "allies" into specific buying decisions just indicates total desperation.


Name a single mainland Chinese brand that even remotely compares to the average American brand, to say nothing of popular culture. Therein lies the reason why China will never overtake the US.

On top of that, their demographics are so atrocious it's scary, for them at least. Good for us though.

American brands mean nothing without the industry producing the actual products, a lot of which is located in China.
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Nilokeras
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Postby Nilokeras » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:50 pm

Organized States wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:In 1991, the US was able to defeat the world's 5th most powerful (non-allied) military in the world in fewer than 100 hours in a ground war. If you think the US could do that today, you are delusional.

I’m not. It’s part of my job and I can tell you we can do it in 72. We’re probably at our apex in terms of the ability to hunt and kill other human beings. We have better training and better or on par equipment with the rest of the planet. Plus we’ve created a generation of senior leaders and NCOs who have all seen combat and are experienced in conducting high-tempo operations across multiple continents simultaneously.

Could we be better? Absol-fucking-utely and I hope we do.


Nothing says 'we're number one' like subsidizing the Afghan scrap metal salvaging economy by dropping million-dollar bombs on the fake 'Taliban camps' the villagers set up so they could melt down the missile casings.
Last edited by Nilokeras on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:55 pm

Duvniask wrote:American brands mean nothing without the industry producing the actual products, a lot of which is located in China.


What they're making isn't exactly rocket science...it would be no problem to produce it elsewhere, the only advantage is how cheap it is to do so in China.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:56 pm

Punished UMN wrote:The Chinese economy is far larger than the US economy, but no, your "brands" mean that the largest economy in human history can "never overtake" the US.


Not going to happen, China is already a dying power and will soon be overtaken by India in every respect. And lol at the idea that the Chinese economy is far larger than the US economy...a comparison of living standards would make it painfully clear that is not the case.
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:57 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:American brands mean nothing without the industry producing the actual products, a lot of which is located in China.


What they're making isn't exactly rocket science...it would be no problem to produce it elsewhere, the only advantage is how cheap it is to do so in China.

China produces many complex and technically sophisticated products. China produces the vast majority of the electronics in the world, for example. Moreover, it is not just cheapness, it is that China already has the manufacturing capacity to do so. They lead the world in manufacturing of almost all types with no signs of slowing down.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:59 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:The Chinese economy is far larger than the US economy, but no, your "brands" mean that the largest economy in human history can "never overtake" the US.


Not going to happen, China is already a dying power and will soon be overtaken by India in every respect.

China's economy is already far larger than the United States, even not taking into account problems inherent in measuring economies. China is still one of the fastest growing economies in the world and while India is the fastest growing, it will still be many years before it catches up to China.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:59 pm

Punished UMN wrote:China produces many complex and technically sophisticated products. China produces the vast majority of the electronics in the world, for example. Moreover, it is not just cheapness, it is that China already has the manufacturing capacity to do so. They lead the world in manufacturing of almost all types with no signs of slowing down.


There's nothing they do that anywhere else in the world can't do...and manufacturing is already leaving China to more low-cost locations in SE Asia, especially Vietnam and India.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:01 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:China produces many complex and technically sophisticated products. China produces the vast majority of the electronics in the world, for example. Moreover, it is not just cheapness, it is that China already has the manufacturing capacity to do so. They lead the world in manufacturing of almost all types with no signs of slowing down.


There's nothing they do that anywhere else in the world can't do...and manufacturing is already leaving China to more low-cost locations in SE Asia, especially Vietnam and India.

China's manufacturing sector grew last year significantly and continues to grow substantially. But sure, keep talking.
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Duvniask
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Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:03 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:China produces many complex and technically sophisticated products. China produces the vast majority of the electronics in the world, for example. Moreover, it is not just cheapness, it is that China already has the manufacturing capacity to do so. They lead the world in manufacturing of almost all types with no signs of slowing down.


There's nothing they do that anywhere else in the world can't do...and manufacturing is already leaving China to more low-cost locations in SE Asia, especially Vietnam and India.

The implication of that reasoning is that there's also nothing America does that cannot be done anywhere else.

In fact, that is the case, because American brands aren't really as dominant as you are making them out to be.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:05 pm

Punished UMN wrote:China's economy is already far larger than the United States, even not taking into account problems inherent in measuring economies. China is still one of the fastest growing economies in the world and while India is the fastest growing, it will still be many years before it catches up to China.


Prove to me that China's economy is far larger than the United States.

China is already a sputtering, dying economy beset with a massive aging population and an atrocious demographic problem combined with an authoritarian regime that has devastated its natural environment and wasted billions, if not trillions of dollars in propping up failures. Makes me wonder if this coronavirus wasn't a weapon developed and released by the CCP to kill off old people in China, I wouldn't put it past those scum.

India's demographics are thriving and they are producing a massive generation of people who are well educated and raised in a democratic society with an increasingly liberalized economy. Not hard to see who will win out in the next 10 years.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:05 pm

Punished UMN wrote:China's manufacturing sector grew last year significantly and continues to grow substantially. But sure, keep talking.


BFD, so did the US and everywhere else on the planet. Cite sources about your magical CCP wonderland or stop wasting my time.
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:06 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
There's nothing they do that anywhere else in the world can't do...and manufacturing is already leaving China to more low-cost locations in SE Asia, especially Vietnam and India.

The implication of that reasoning is that there's also nothing America does that cannot be done anywhere else.

In fact, that is the case, because American brands aren't really as dominant as you are making them out to be.

Their nation was founded in 2005 and they haven't updated their knowledge of the international economy since then either apparently lol
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:09 pm

Duvniask wrote:The implication of that reasoning is that there's also nothing America does that cannot be done anywhere else.

In fact, that is the case, because American brands aren't really as dominant as you are making them out to be.


You do realize this is a made-up calculation based on factors to apply a "brand value" to individual nations and not the actual impact of commercial product branding or media, right?
Last edited by Vetalia on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:09 pm

Bulgar Rouge wrote:China will eventually replace the US, the trajectory is more or less clear and there aren't many factors that point to American resurgence or geopolitical vitality. The fact that America needs to strong-arm its own European "allies" into specific buying decisions just indicates total desperation.
People heavily over-state the place of China, fawning over their economic capabilities, and glittery skylines, and not realizing that the global hegemony narrative was never true during or after the cold war. America never truly dominated the world, and it couldn't even hold Vietnam, let alone Afghanistan and Iraq in the 2000s AKA the alleged height of US power.

China will not replace the US, as China has major demographic and internal problems, and is hostile to all its neighbors save Pakistan, whereas the place of the US was a soft-power diplomatic player binding Europe and some Asian nations under a general banner, and as a global currency that China can't replace because it so heavily manipulates and devalues it's own. If you also look carefully at Chinese economic statistics AKA the ones the Chinese government hands us, China has an incredibly low GDP per capita and spending power per citizen, that is low even comparable to the poorest European nation.

I'd argue that the US military intervention is what has weakened America's place in the world. I don't agree with Trump, and think his foreign policy is terrible, but long-term the US will recover, as long as it leaves military interventionism behind, and looks towards it's own economic and social problems, and comes back to the international table as a soft-power.

China is already over-extending itself, and were China to try what it wants to in the South China Sea, it would be Pyrrhic victory, as if it's neighbors ever united against it, China would have a multi-front war on it's hands it would be bound to lose. The only war it ever fought and won against a major country was against an India that was weak from constant disputes with Pakistan, and Korea - at an astronomical cost of lives compared to the UN forces losses.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:09 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:China's manufacturing sector grew last year significantly and continues to grow substantially. But sure, keep talking.


BFD, so did the US and everywhere else on the planet. Cite sources about your magical CCP wonderland or stop wasting my time.

Actually US industrial production decreased substantially, according to the Federal Reserve.

Here's some graphs: https://imgur.com/a/80YyFNu
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:11 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:China's economy is already far larger than the United States, even not taking into account problems inherent in measuring economies. China is still one of the fastest growing economies in the world and while India is the fastest growing, it will still be many years before it catches up to China.


Prove to me that China's economy is far larger than the United States.

China is already a sputtering, dying economy beset with a massive aging population and an atrocious demographic problem combined with an authoritarian regime that has devastated its natural environment and wasted billions, if not trillions of dollars in propping up failures. Makes me wonder if this coronavirus wasn't a weapon developed and released by the CCP to kill off old people in China, I wouldn't put it past those scum.

India's demographics are thriving and they are producing a massive generation of people who are well educated and raised in a democratic society with an increasingly liberalized economy. Not hard to see who will win out in the next 10 years.

It's far larger in that it produces more things, and produces more economic value, and any bureau of statistics in the world will show you that.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:12 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
BFD, so did the US and everywhere else on the planet. Cite sources about your magical CCP wonderland or stop wasting my time.

Actually US industrial production decreased substantially, according to the Federal Reserve.

Here's some graphs: https://imgur.com/a/80YyFNu


Pull the industrial production data from FRED and not an Imgur upload and we'll talk.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:13 pm

Punished UMN wrote:It's far larger in that it produces more things, and produces more economic value, and any bureau of statistics in the world will show you that.


So you have no source data. Got it.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:16 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Actually US industrial production decreased substantially, according to the Federal Reserve.

Here's some graphs: https://imgur.com/a/80YyFNu


Pull the industrial production data from FRED and not an Imgur upload and we'll talk.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/

From your source lol

Image
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:19 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:It's far larger in that it produces more things, and produces more economic value, and any bureau of statistics in the world will show you that.


So you have no source data. Got it.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/we ... index.aspx
The info you're looking for is under GDP PPP
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Duvniask
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Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:21 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:The implication of that reasoning is that there's also nothing America does that cannot be done anywhere else.

In fact, that is the case, because American brands aren't really as dominant as you are making them out to be.


You do realize this is a made-up calculation based on factors to apply a "brand value" to individual nations and not the actual impact of commercial product branding or media, right?

And you do realize that saying a statistical artifact is made up is not an argument? You said "name a single mainland Chinese brand that even remotely compares to the average American brand", and since you did not specify how we should compare them in any way whatsoever, I simply chose what someone else, namely Brand Finance (which is a business valuation consultancy), had deemed a fitting standard for such a comparison. Feel free to critique their standards, as I'm no expert in brand value, but they seemingly are. In any case, it runs counter to your narrative, so unless you want to put out some contrary data that shows a different picture, have a good day, sir.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
So you have no source data. Got it.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/we ... index.aspx
The info you're looking for is under GDP PPP

The IMF has the US at 10 while China is at 67 for 2020. So much for China great. Maybe you’d get better responses on r/Sino where nobody will ever question “China stronk”
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