150 public figures sign open letter decrying cancel culture

[Kowani]

The younger generations, in addition to being massively less conservative than anything preceding them, and much more racially tolerant, are still dependent on societal approval, and it is the latter which we seek to remove. If we cannot change the thought process of some racists, that is alright, because we show the undecided and the young that such thoughts are unacceptable.
It’s similar to China and HK booksellers.

So you'll start a massive uprising, riots and exodus of your most talented????

I kept it specific to booksellers for a reason. Nice try strawmanning, though. Are you out of practice, Marches?

By the way, what do you think happens to your anti-war and pro-labor friends on the left? Are you excited for them to become victims of the world that is coming?

Shrug
You’re a boomer. Your day is already in twilight.

[Vapormancer]

I kept it specific to booksellers for a reason. Nice try strawmanning, though. Are you out of practice, Marches?

Not at all, I'm not foolish enough to draw on a catalyst event and example of overreach that led to the Hong Kong riots as being a good thing. Even I don't have such a level of boldness to hope my foe does not know a regional history and would willingly accept an insane example as the norm.

You’re a boomer. Your day is already in twilight.

Ah so being anti-war or pro-labor is already dead and not worth defending? Say it explicitly for the class. You are ok then with Wells Fargo cancelling people exposing the bombing Yemeni children? Just to be clear, this already happened. These are the people are afterall you have made your bed with in the brave cause.

[Vapormancer]

Not all allies against white supremacy are good allies, but they are still allies. It's good that the proud boys can't get banking services - maybe they'll see the error of their ways if they suffer enough.



Well we need to stop white supremacy. This is regardless of whether they're ceos, journalists, or posters on NSG. I have every confidence our new minority driven government in January will tackle this with great ability. The fact that Trump and his ilk are incompetent and unable to run things doesn't mean Biden and his people won't be.

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

This is your current anti-racist movement. Why are you surprised? Do you think the 1619 Lady started swiping at Natives because she was genuinely hurt by their enslavement of others or because they have land that, the oil company who paid her so handsomely, would very much not only like to drill on but would have an ideologically valid excuse from cutting them out of any payment whatsoever.

[Radfems Inc]

Notably, most of those pursued have been private sector employees, which makes sense, as they make up a much larger share of employees.

And yet even they still require societal approval and validation.

From their society yes. But people now have differing societies online than in real life, and approval can be gained from any society you are a part of.

Besides, you don't even have to tell anyone you're on welfare, what with the work at home thing going on.

…The unemployment rate has skyrocketed, you think all those people are just lying to their family and friends?

No, but they report to government agencies. There's laws (with punishment!) against lying to government agencies to get money from them. People don't do informal polls to their friends and then just sum it up to government numbers.

There's no rule that what you tell the government and what you tell your friends has to be the same. That's ridiculous.

Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.

…This is not actually entirely true, by the way, punishment is extremely ineffective as a teaching tool for an individual, but it’s much better at moving groups.

Then why did you point out the suffering when we're talking about teaching?

[Kowani]

I kept it specific to booksellers for a reason. Nice try strawmanning, though. Are you out of practice, Marches?

Not at all, I'm not foolish enough to draw on a catalyst event and example of overreach that led to the Hong Kong riots as being a good thing. Even I don't have such a level of boldness to hope my foe does not know a regional history and would willingly accept an insane example as the norm.

…You mean the security law which removed regional autonomy in criminal justice and allowed Mainland China to extradite people from HK with next to no oversight. Conflation is a bad look for you, mate.

You’re a boomer. Your day is already in twilight.

Ah so being anti-war or pro-labor is already dead and not worth defending? Say it explicitly for the class. You are ok then with Wells Fargo cancelling people exposing the bombing Yemeni children? Just to be clear, this already happened. These are the people are afterall you have made your bed with in the brave cause.

…Canceling someone is a massive social action mixing ostracism, public shaming and possible financial consequences. It requires a substantial social consensus.

Do you mean that WF fired someone?

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

This is your current anti-racist movement. Why are you surprised? Do you think the 1619 Lady started swiping at Natives because she was genuinely hurt by their enslavement of others or because they have land that, the oil company who paid her so handsomely, would very much not only like to drill on but would have an ideologically valid excuse from cutting them out of any payment whatsoever.

It is possible for both things to be true.

[Radfems Inc]

Notably, most of those pursued have been private sector employees, which makes sense, as they make up a much larger share of employees.

Besides, you don't even have to tell anyone you're on welfare, what with the work at home thing going on.



Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.

What lessons do you think people are learning from the collapse in authority of civil government? Do you think perhaps anybody is drawing a lesson from the fact it will cave to both protesters and cops? How about the lesson of Mayor Lightfoot, if Walmart says jump, a progressive asks how high? Pain certainly is a learning experience, just not in the direction I believe you are prepared for.

I'd say given the... let's say bendy nature of our authorities lately, it's all the more important that we establish the power of the antifascist movement and moving towards tearing down white supremacy. If they can't have a spine, you have to show them exactly which way they need to bend.

[SD_Film Artists]

As soon as the Republicans denounce the KKK and stop taking campaign donations from them, we'll talk.

/thread

I didn't know that JK Rowling was a Republican. Indeed even if she did swing that way it would be difficult for her to vote as she's British.

[Radfems Inc]

Not all allies against white supremacy are good allies, but they are still allies. It's good that the proud boys can't get banking services - maybe they'll see the error of their ways if they suffer enough.



Well we need to stop white supremacy. This is regardless of whether they're ceos, journalists, or posters on NSG. I have every confidence our new minority driven government in January will tackle this with great ability. The fact that Trump and his ilk are incompetent and unable to run things doesn't mean Biden and his people won't be.

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

I mean, here's the thing. People of color can be prejudiced, but not racist. Racist requires an entrenched prejudice dynamic that stretches a long time into history, supporting the legal and social structures we have today, powerful in its scope and reach.

While we can imagine scenarios where this could hypothetically occur, none occur in the United States now, nor ever have, nor will for the foreseeable future.

[Aidannadia]

Where in conservative dogma does it say that they're against demanding firings, boycotts, and social repudiation?

All are completely within the American tradition. Sure, we have the added democratization of social media to worry about, but conservatives regularly call for boycotts, firings, and engage in the same social repudiation. Look at DJ Trump's twitter. He regularly calls for such things.

Not only that but 'cancelling' someone rarely has genuine economic drawbacks. Louis CK sells out stadiums. Taylor Swift and Kanye are both doing fine. Gillis is still on the stand up circuit. The only real consequences that have happened are for people that have genuine criminal allegations, like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. Are Bill Cosby and harvey Weinstein really in need of financial help and your moral defense?

[Radfems Inc]

Where in conservative dogma does it say that they're against demanding firings, boycotts, and social repudiation?

All are completely within the American tradition. Sure, we have the added democratization of social media to worry about, but conservatives regularly call for boycotts, firings, and engage in the same social repudiation. Look at DJ Trump's twitter. He regularly calls for such things.

Not only that but 'cancelling' someone rarely has genuine economic drawbacks. Louis CK sells out stadiums. Taylor Swift and Kanye are both doing fine. Gillis is still on the stand up circuit. The only real consequences that have happened are for people that have genuine criminal allegations, like Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein. Are Bill Cosby and harvey Weinstein really in need of financial help and your moral defense?

Honestly, really rich figures are hard unless we cut them out of the banking system (as Vapormancer helpfully suggested!). Mostly we will have to target from the ground up the middle class that can be effectively hurt by these things and tacitly support them which gives cover to the Bill Cosby's and Harvey Weinstein's of the world.

IE, the only ones that can be effectively targeted for reform are the Sue Schafer's and Wuestenbergs and James Damores of the world. The rest will have to be drug along slowly with the rest of society once we cut the rot out of the middle, because that much wealth makes them untouchable.

[Vapormancer]

…You mean the security law which removed regional autonomy in criminal justice and allowed Mainland China to extradite people from HK with next to no oversight. Conflation is a bad look for you, mate.

I mean the massive exodus of people and bankrupting of Hong Kong as entry point for Western money yes. That was a massive failure. Next you'll tell me we won in Vietnam with that sort of logic and the Afghanistan will be a westernized nation.

…Canceling someone is a massive social action mixing ostracism, public shaming and possible financial consequences. It requires a substantial social consensus.

Do you mean that WF fired someone?

Yes, you have now made it perfectly acceptable to do that to dissidents. Those will soon be your small (actually) marginalized group. The Chessmistress and RadFems Inc. are the majority. Do you think the Democratic Senators celebrating the diversity (of all women) CEOs in the defense industry were doing so because they actually cared or because it was a cudgel with which they could use to crush dissident? So long as they put a rainbow flag on the same game, they've conned 80% of the country into believing its fine.

Well Fargo took a report from a State Department backed author & spurious claims of anti-POC racism to yank the services of a publication that dared to run articles regarding the funneling of arms to Yemen. As we all know, the House of Saud is a marginalized group. They still can't find a traditional bank willing to take them in if I remember right. Why are you surprised? This is what you've brought about. More over, you've just given them infinite power by lending your credibility (not that you had any with me personally but as a movement) to their actions. Normies will think "must have been a racist" the next time a serious journalist or activist group goes under. Furthermore, you've now legitimized simply removing things Soviet style from web searches. It will be like they never existed.

It is possible for both things to be true.

Then she is still morally bankrupt and emblematic of your cause. Your cause will whore out to capital for a few crumbs for the leadership.

[The Reformed American Republic]

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

I mean, here's the thing. People of color can be prejudiced, but not racist. Racist requires an entrenched prejudice dynamic that stretches a long time into history, supporting the legal and social structures we have today, powerful in its scope and reach.

While we can imagine scenarios where this could hypothetically occur, none occur in the United States now, nor ever have, nor will for the foreseeable future.

That's institutional racism not racism.

[Vapormancer]

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

I mean, here's the thing. People of color can be prejudiced, but not racist. Racist requires an entrenched prejudice dynamic that stretches a long time into history, supporting the legal and social structures we have today, powerful in its scope and reach.

While we can imagine scenarios where this could hypothetically occur, none occur in the United States now, nor ever have, nor will for the foreseeable future.

Ah here we go. When the House of Saud bombs buses of Yemeni Children or uses Sudan mercenaries to purge villages, it can't ever be racism. Very cool! Just like those Tech CEOs of Color coming after journos are really the victims here because the journo who wiretapped was a white woman!

[Kowani]

And yet even they still require societal approval and validation.

From their society yes. But people now have differing societies online than in real life, and approval can be gained from any society you are a part of.

And? Let them spew hate in the corners of 4chan or whatever, and stigmatize then extremely heavily whenever they pop their heads out. By confining it to a small community, as long as you keep an eye on said community for warning signs of violence (at which point it should be broken up immediately), you weaken it.
Good example here, Stephen Molyneaux (a race realist and neo-Nazi). He had around 930,000 subs on YouTube. Gets banned, goes to Bitchute. His biggest video, the “I’ve been silenced” wail? 40,000 views. That’s a massive fucking downgrade.

…The unemployment rate has skyrocketed, you think all those people are just lying to their family and friends?

No, but they report to government agencies. There's laws (with punishment!) against lying to government agencies to get money from them. People don't do informal polls to their friends and then just sum it up to government numbers.

That has nothing to do with what I said.
[quote

Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.[/quote]
…This is not actually entirely true, by the way, punishment is extremely ineffective as a teaching tool for an individual, but it’s much better at moving groups.[/quote]

Then why did you point out the suffering when we're talking about teaching?[/quote]
…The point is not to make racists suffer, if we wanted to do that’s, we could come up with something much more insidious. No, the point is to marginalize their voices and make it harder for them to spread their beliefs. I brought up punishment because you seem to think it’s the only way people change.

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

I mean, here's the thing. People of color can be prejudiced, but not racist. Racist requires an entrenched prejudice dynamic that stretches a long time into history, supporting the legal and social structures we have today, powerful in its scope and reach.

While we can imagine scenarios where this could hypothetically occur, none occur in the United States now, nor ever have, nor will for the foreseeable future.

A black police officer is still furthering the system of racism, “mate.” Diversifying institutions will change the margins at best.

[Radfems Inc]

I mean, here's the thing. People of color can be prejudiced, but not racist. Racist requires an entrenched prejudice dynamic that stretches a long time into history, supporting the legal and social structures we have today, powerful in its scope and reach.

While we can imagine scenarios where this could hypothetically occur, none occur in the United States now, nor ever have, nor will for the foreseeable future.

That's institutional racism not racism.

Yours is not the view of those who are anti-racist.

DiAngelo’s book is a radical statement at a time when the debate is so polarised. It seems we are forever talking about race. Or talking about why we can’t talk about race. So the problem isn’t a lack of conversation about racism but the different levels of understanding about what it is.

“We have to stop thinking about racism simply as someone who says the N-word,” she says. “This book is centred in the white western colonial context, and in that context white people hold institutional power.” This means understanding that racism is a system rather than just a slur; it is prejudice plus power. And in Britain and the US at least, it is designed to benefit and privilege whiteness by every economic and social measure. Everyone has racial bias but, as DiAngelo is determined to establish, “when you back a group’s collective bias with lingering authority and institutional control, it is transformed”.

That is why she is scathing of those who claim “reverse racism” exists; after all, people of colour can show prejudice against white people. It is equally condemnable, but this form of discrimination does not come with systemic privilege and so is not racism as per the modern definition.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... n-diangelo

Yours is an old definition. Archaic. Akin to using "let" to mean prevent or restrict, or "faggot" to mean "a bundle of sticks".

[Vapormancer]

A black police officer is still furthering the system of racism, “mate.” Diversifying institutions will change the margins at best.

So if its an institution of all black people top to bottom but it was once made by white and may have been racist, it is still a racist institution? That is almost as insane an idea as the other way around.

[Aidannadia]

Honestly, really rich figures are hard unless we cut them out of the banking system (as Vapormancer helpfully suggested!). Mostly we will have to target from the ground up the middle class that can be effectively hurt by these things and tacitly support them which gives cover to the Bill Cosby's and Harvey Weinstein's of the world.

IE, the only ones that can be effectively targeted for reform are the Sue Schafer's and Wuestenbergs and James Damores of the world. The rest will have to be drug along slowly with the rest of society once we cut the rot out of the middle, because that much wealth makes them untouchable.

Shaming or divesting from banking industries in order to affect their decision making will not happpen at such a scale that would be needed to cause such change, especially considering the wealth gap. They're more than happy already to take money from organized crime and then take the fines; people who say naughty words aren't even on their radar.

While I'm all for cancelling pseudocelebrities, youtubers, and other influencer types to affect public opinion about what is appropriate and what is not, it's a very incremental change that requires sustained and organized effort to actually be effective in isolation, especially because those targets also get a respectable amount of sympathy traffic from their fans during times of controversy.

Like fuck racists/sexists/etc sure, and cancelling them is fine, its just not a truly revolutionary tactic, and until that wealth remains, those with the societal power to raise up others will choose their sympathizers over their critics. Without at least the threat of revolutionary societal change, bark remains without bite. Capital always wins.

[Vapormancer]

From their society yes. But people now have differing societies online than in real life, and approval can be gained from any society you are a part of.

And? Let them spew hate in the corners of 4chan or whatever, and stigmatize then extremely heavily whenever they pop their heads out. By confining it to a small community, as long as you keep an eye on said community for warning signs of violence (at which point it should be broken up immediately), you weaken it.
Good example here, Stephen Molyneaux (a race realist and neo-Nazi). He had around 930,000 subs on YouTube. Gets banned, goes to Bitchute. His biggest video, the “I’ve been silenced” wail? 40,000 views. That’s a massive fucking downgrade.

I do not think you understand how the internet works. A small group of coordinated posters can manipulate algos. Your understanding of this sort of thing is rather surface level. What makes you think they won't keep infecting people with memes? Its the war of the comments sections. You have to shut it all down to win.

[Kowani]

…You mean the security law which removed regional autonomy in criminal justice and allowed Mainland China to extradite people from HK with next to no oversight. Conflation is a bad look for you, mate.

I mean the massive exodus of people and bankrupting of Hong Kong as entry point for Western money yes. That was a massive failure.

Things that were caused by the security law, not the removal of books.

Next you'll tell me we won in Vietnam with that sort of logic

Nope.

and the Afghanistan will be a westernized nation.
It does have a massive opium industry…

Yes, you have now made it perfectly acceptable to do that to dissidents. Those will soon be your small (actually) marginalized group. The Chessmistress and RadFems Inc. are the majority. Do you think the Democratic Senators celebrating the diversity (of all women) CEOs in the defense industry were doing so because they actually cared or because it was a cudgel with which they could use to crush dissident? So long as they put a rainbow flag on the same game, they've conned 80% of the country into believing its fine.

Shrug. I cant really stop that, now can I?

Well Fargo took a report from a State Department backed author & spurious claims of anti-POC racism to yank the services of a publication that dared to run articles regarding the funneling of arms to Yemen. As we all know, the House of Saud is a marginalized group. They still can't find a traditional bank willing to take them in if I remember right. Why are you surprised? This is what you've brought about. More over, you've just given them infinite power by lending your credibility (not that you had any with me personally but as a movement) to their actions. Normies will think "must have been a racist" the next time a serious journalist or activist group goes under.
Furthermore, you've now legitimized simply removing things Soviet style from web searches. It will be like they never existed.

Then she is still morally bankrupt and emblematic of your cause. Your cause will whore out to capital for a few crumbs for the leadership. /quote]
Yes, yes, reactionaries always do this. You take the totally legitimate point of Rainbow Capitalism and then use it to imply that the cause which has been co-opted is now bad. Whoo-goo, argument over, are we done here?

[Vapormancer]

Yes, yes, reactionaries always do this. You take the totally legitimate point of Rainbow Capitalism and then use it to imply that the cause which has been co-opted is now bad. Whoo-goo, argument over, are we done here?

I am a reactionary now? What an excellent upgrade. If it means I'm opposed to the sort who is for more black female bomber pilots, I will take it! No, I did not imply it. I said it openly. I said even, you are their foot soldier and nothing you support is getting done. You will usher in an era of bombing countries for gay rights and limited humanitarian interventions. It will LGBT+ loans to Greece this time, so its perfectly fine. You have no counter to my points, hence why you cut it short. Mayor Lightfoot, that brave progressive, who fired cops and replaced them with more brutal private security is our future. Keep enabling it, I'm sure it will end well!

[Kowani]

A black police officer is still furthering the system of racism, “mate.” Diversifying institutions will change the margins at best.

So if its an institution of all black people top to bottom but it was once made by white and may have been racist, it is still a racist institution? That is almost as insane an idea as the other way around.

No…? I never claimed anything of the sort. What makes an organization racist are it’s actions, not who comprises the leadership.

And? Let them spew hate in the corners of 4chan or whatever, and stigmatize then extremely heavily whenever they pop their heads out. By confining it to a small community, as long as you keep an eye on said community for warning signs of violence (at which point it should be broken up immediately), you weaken it.
Good example here, Stephen Molyneaux (a race realist and neo-Nazi). He had around 930,000 subs on YouTube. Gets banned, goes to Bitchute. His biggest video, the “I’ve been silenced” wail? 40,000 views. That’s a massive fucking downgrade.

I do not think you understand how the internet works. A small group of coordinated posters can manipulate algos. Your understanding of this sort of thing is rather surface level. What makes you think they won't keep infecting people with memes? Its the war of the comments sections. You have to shut it all down to win.

Despite your living in the twitter bubble,the General societal consensus is moving away from reactionary ideas.

[Diarcesia]

A black police officer is still furthering the system of racism, “mate.” Diversifying institutions will change the margins at best.

So if its an institution of all black people top to bottom but it was once made by white and may have been racist, it is still a racist institution? That is almost as insane an idea as the other way around.

It's racist because it's not made by nonwhites. Got it. What is that called again? Not invented here. And I thought anti-racism is rooted on the belief that one shouldn't be judged because of attributes they have no control, such as skin color or genetics.

[Kowani]

Yes, yes, reactionaries always do this. You take the totally legitimate point of Rainbow Capitalism and then use it to imply that the cause which has been co-opted is now bad. Whoo-goo, argument over, are we done here?

I am a reactionary now? What an excellent upgrade. If it means I'm opposed to the sort who is for more black female bomber pilots, I will take it! No, I did not imply it. I said it openly. I said even, you are their foot soldier and nothing you support is getting done. You have no counter to my points, hence why you cut it sort.

Wow. None of what you said addressed my point at all.
You’re off your game, Marches.

[Vapormancer]

I am a reactionary now? What an excellent upgrade. If it means I'm opposed to the sort who is for more black female bomber pilots, I will take it! No, I did not imply it. I said it openly. I said even, you are their foot soldier and nothing you support is getting done. You have no counter to my points, hence why you cut it sort.

Wow. None of what you said addressed my point at all.
You’re off your game, Marches.

It did indeed. Please explain to the class why you are on the side of the big banks and endorsing things which crush actual dissent? Why are you for rainbow Defense industries? Go ahead, I'm waiting. You dodged before, I'll give you another shot.

[Vapormancer]

No…? I never claimed anything of the sort. What makes an organization racist are it’s actions, not who comprises the leadership.

Perhaps you should said that instead of boilerplate that means something else? That might make it easier.

Despite your living in the twitter bubble,the General societal consensus is moving away from reactionary ideas.

Yes, towards reactionary ideas like celebrating our military industrial complex CEOs who are women and Tech Bros of color. What a huge systemic change. Are you proud of yourself? I'm hurt you'd accuse me of being in the twitter bubble. That was unnecessary. I thought we were friends.