150 public figures sign open letter decrying cancel culture

[Kowani]

Yes. Welfare is heavily stigmatized in the US, and we don’t want them making workplaces inhospitable, and we don’t want some small business owner getting screwed out of customers because one of their employees hated Mexicans.
At the same time, however, racists have families, and unemployment tends to lead to very bad things, so we don’t want them to be reduced to complete and utter poverty.

Honestly, if you reward people for being racist though, because that's what we're talking about in the vast majority of cases (most people don't like going to work), wouldn't that just make more people racist?

…Did you miss the point about welfare being heavily stigmatized? Most overt racists tend to be extremely conservative, and for them, it’s even worse. It conflicts with their self-image, their self-respect. In addition, the mass social shunning makes it psychologically unattractive, and-wait, do you think we want people to be living better than actual workers on welfare? Most people want to get off of welfare. Most people like their jobs (for some odd reason).

[Radfems Inc]

So wait a minute, we should hold racists accountable by... giving them a permanent paid vacation?

No, of course not. The paid vacation isn't necessarily permanent and is unrelated to efforts towards accountability.

Well, if we don't want racists back in our businesses, the vacation would necessarily have to be permanently paid or you just moved when their punishment occurs outward a little bit (when the paid portion ends).

It's sort of like when you're at a restaurant and a waiter is incompetent. If you give him a small tip or no tip because of his incompetence, and he's living on his own and needs those tips to live, that punishment will incentivise him to change his ways and become a better waiter, so that he can get more tips and continue to survive.

If he's living at home with his parents and doesn't even need the money, that incentive is removed. He'll just think you're an asshole and not reflect on his own behavior, as the punishment didn't "sting". It is important to threaten them with destitution or they will not reflect on their ways. This is as true of a rude waiter as it is of a white supremacist asshole.

[Radfems Inc]

Honestly, if you reward people for being racist though, because that's what we're talking about in the vast majority of cases (most people don't like going to work), wouldn't that just make more people racist?

…Did you miss the point about welfare being heavily stigmatized? Most overt racists tend to be extremely conservative, and for them, it’s even worse. It conflicts with their self-image, their self-respect. In addition, the mass social shunning makes it psychologically unattractive, and-wait, do you think we want people to be living better than actual workers on welfare? Most people want to get off of welfare. Most people like their jobs (for some odd reason).

I don't think the mass social shunning for welfare is as common anymore as it used to be. The reason for that probably has to do with food stamps went from lists and coupons that were visible and distinctive to debit cards that work like all other debit cards, so other than the cashier themselves, most people won't even know if you have food stamps or things of that nature.

It is odd that most people like their jobs. I didn't expect that.

[Kowani]

…Did you miss the point about welfare being heavily stigmatized? Most overt racists tend to be extremely conservative, and for them, it’s even worse. It conflicts with their self-image, their self-respect. In addition, the mass social shunning makes it psychologically unattractive, and-wait, do you think we want people to be living better than actual workers on welfare? Most people want to get off of welfare. Most people like their jobs (for some odd reason).

I don't think the mass social shunning for welfare is as common anymore as it used to be. The reason for that probably has to do with food stamps went from lists and coupons that were visible and distinctive to debit cards that work like all other debit cards, so other than the cashier themselves, most people won't even know if you have food stamps or things of that nature.

Social shunning for being racist is more effective on a mass scale than social shunning for welfare use, the latter of which tends to be limited to the person’s immediate family and social relationships. You must work on all dimensions, the intimate and the external.

It is odd that most people like their jobs. I didn't expect that.

Yeah, I don’t get it either.

[Gormwood]

"I'm not posting this to gloat."
"I put them on my Foe Lost."

Just to let them know not to quote me. Doing it once is fine.

Why should you give a shit about them quoting you if they're on your Foe List?

[Radfems Inc]

I don't think the mass social shunning for welfare is as common anymore as it used to be. The reason for that probably has to do with food stamps went from lists and coupons that were visible and distinctive to debit cards that work like all other debit cards, so other than the cashier themselves, most people won't even know if you have food stamps or things of that nature.

Social shunning for being racist is more effective on a mass scale than social shunning for welfare use, the latter of which tends to be limited to the person’s immediate family and social relationships. You must work on all dimensions, the intimate and the external.

TBH though, if you're on welfare for our ideological views, you'd likely to see that as a form of political persecution anyway, which is likely to undercut the welfare shaming.

And again, in the objective sense, most people aren't defined by their jobs, as the link you gave showed. Most just see it as something they do the live.

If they don't need it to live...

[Vapormancer]

I don't think the mass social shunning for welfare is as common anymore as it used to be. The reason for that probably has to do with food stamps went from lists and coupons that were visible and distinctive to debit cards that work like all other debit cards, so other than the cashier themselves, most people won't even know if you have food stamps or things of that nature.

Social shunning for being racist is more effective on a mass scale than social shunning for welfare use, the latter of which tends to be limited to the person’s immediate family and social relationships. You must work on all dimensions, the intimate and the external.

It is odd that most people like their jobs. I didn't expect that.

Yeah, I don’t get it either.

I am very much looking forward to the anti-war left and pro-labor left being physically removed from banking, employment and basic services. Its already begun with the most prominent anti-war voices. It was certainly a great idea to pair up with Wells Fargo and Shell Oil in support of "justice". Very well thought out! Ifreann and co. are really on a roll here.

[Vapormancer]

Edited to make a poor soul feel better

[Vapormancer]

So wait a minute, we should hold racists accountable by... giving them a permanent paid vacation?

No, of course not. The paid vacation isn't necessarily permanent and is unrelated to efforts towards accountability.

It is of course accountability when you find yourself on the same side as Nike and its sweatshops. Very good and very ethical accountability going on.

Is the criticism valid?

Is the concern for people left destitute because they can't get a job legitimate? Or is it just a cover for trying to protect bigots, who are themselves driving people out of the workforce by their bigotry and subjecting those people to the same destitution?

See, I do care about people who are destitute because they can't get a job, whether that is because they have a criminal record or because they are a member of a marginalised community or because they are just a raging shithead and no one wants to work with them. And thus I want to decouple people's access to housing and healthcare and all of that from whether or not they have a job. I do not want raging shitheads to keep their jobs, because they will make their workplace a worse place by being a raging shithead. I do want members of marginalised communities to keep their jobs, because they are not making their workplace worse by being Black, or trans, etc. You see how this works? People suffering when they lose their job isn't a good argument for protecting bigots, it's a good argument for making it so that people don't suffer when they lose their job.

Destitute people with nothing to lose tend to pick up guns and starting massacring people. Did you learn nothing from IS or our current issue with men who are checking out? It is an extremely valid concern. You would lose your state hand outs for those marginalized groups if things get bad enough.

[Vapormancer]

No, of course not. The paid vacation isn't necessarily permanent and is unrelated to efforts towards accountability.

Well, if we don't want racists back in our businesses, the vacation would necessarily have to be permanently paid or you just moved when their punishment occurs outward a little bit (when the paid portion ends).

It's sort of like when you're at a restaurant and a waiter is incompetent. If you give him a small tip or no tip because of his incompetence, and he's living on his own and needs those tips to live, that punishment will incentivise him to change his ways and become a better waiter, so that he can get more tips and continue to survive.

If he's living at home with his parents and doesn't even need the money, that incentive is removed. He'll just think you're an asshole and not reflect on his own behavior, as the punishment didn't "sting". It is important to threaten them with destitution or they will not reflect on their ways. This is as true of a rude waiter as it is of a white supremacist asshole.

Very cool, I too wish for terror groups to spring up. Disenfranchised people is how these things occur. Do you wonder why our friends on the serious alt-right are very glad by your position? You've just given them a recruiting line. I also look forward to the soon to be ubiquitous .ru and .cn banks & payment processors. If you deny your domestic political foes access to basic services, a foreign element will be all too happy to help. Its a free market afterall. Then you'll really see "Russian interference"!

[Diarcesia]

Is the criticism valid?

Is the concern for people left destitute because they can't get a job legitimate? Or is it just a cover for trying to protect bigots, who are themselves driving people out of the workforce by their bigotry and subjecting those people to the same destitution?

If they use it to protect bigots, that's a separate valid issue to address. I get it, I am usually skeptical of many advocacies and crusades because it had been done for ulterior motives. That doesn't minimize my concern that innocents were left destitute because the mobs are not doing their due diligence. Why do you think many want the death penalty abolished?

See, I do care about people who are destitute because they can't get a job, whether that is because they have a criminal record or because they are a member of a marginalised community or because they are just a raging shithead and no one wants to work with them. And thus I want to decouple people's access to housing and healthcare and all of that from whether or not they have a job. I do not want raging shitheads to keep their jobs, because they will make their workplace a worse place by being a raging shithead. I do want members of marginalised communities to keep their jobs, because they are not making their workplace worse by being Black, or trans, etc. You see how this works? People suffering when they lose their job isn't a good argument for protecting bigots, it's a good argument for making it so that people don't suffer when they lose their job.

Same here.

[Gormwood]

Why should you give a shit about them quoting you if they're on your Foe List?

One does wonder, perhaps you should take your own advice Gauth, it might do you some good!

Oh, a DOS.

[Radfems Inc]

Well, if we don't want racists back in our businesses, the vacation would necessarily have to be permanently paid or you just moved when their punishment occurs outward a little bit (when the paid portion ends).

It's sort of like when you're at a restaurant and a waiter is incompetent. If you give him a small tip or no tip because of his incompetence, and he's living on his own and needs those tips to live, that punishment will incentivise him to change his ways and become a better waiter, so that he can get more tips and continue to survive.

If he's living at home with his parents and doesn't even need the money, that incentive is removed. He'll just think you're an asshole and not reflect on his own behavior, as the punishment didn't "sting". It is important to threaten them with destitution or they will not reflect on their ways. This is as true of a rude waiter as it is of a white supremacist asshole.

Very cool, I too wish for terror groups to spring up. Disenfranchised people is how these things occur. Do you wonder why our friends on the serious alt-right are very glad by your position? You've just given them a recruiting line. I also look forward to the soon to be ubiquitous .ru and .cn banks & payment processors. If you deny your domestic political foes access to basic services, a foreign element will be all too happy to help. Its a free market afterall. Then you'll really see "Russian interference"!

It seems like we could prevent foreign actors from interfering with our system by denying them access to our shores when it comes to things like banking.

I hadn't really thought about your line of reasoning though. Everyone informs their employers that they're racist assholes, but no one informs their banks. I know a lot of that stuff is secret for a reason, but we ought to consider if it's known who their bank is to apply pressure that way as well. The bank employees can't be happy about serving white supremacist customers, and having to put up with them when they come in for services definitely would put off black people from the banking industry (which is predominantly white and male). Kicking them out of it would probably help increase minority representation in the banking industry.

[Aidannadia]

Oh no, people didn't like what I said and want nothing to do with me, just as is their right under freedom of association. Whatever shall I do?

[Gormwood]

Oh no, people didn't like what I said and want nothing to do with me, just as is their right under freedom of association. Whatever shall I do?

Blame it on cancel culture of course.

[Vapormancer]

Very cool, I too wish for terror groups to spring up. Disenfranchised people is how these things occur. Do you wonder why our friends on the serious alt-right are very glad by your position? You've just given them a recruiting line. I also look forward to the soon to be ubiquitous .ru and .cn banks & payment processors. If you deny your domestic political foes access to basic services, a foreign element will be all too happy to help. Its a free market afterall. Then you'll really see "Russian interference"!

It seems like we could prevent foreign actors from interfering with our system by denying them access to our shores when it comes to things like banking.

I hadn't really thought about your line of reasoning though. Everyone informs their employers that they're racist assholes, but no one informs their banks. I know a lot of that stuff is secret for a reason, but we ought to consider if it's known who their bank is to apply pressure that way as well. The bank employees can't be happy about serving white supremacist customers, and having to put up with them when they come in for services definitely would put off black people from the banking industry (which is predominantly white and male). Kicking them out of it would probably help increase minority representation in the banking industry.

They already inform banks, this has been the latest line of attack. No worries, Goldman Sachs said no more IPOs by all white company boards. No doubt this commitment to social justice will stop them raping small countries with bad loans! I wonder what will happen to the people who point out that Goldman Sachs and friends do this to places like Greece? Hmm.... I wonder what negative consequences this could entail.

This country can't stop the flow of meme crypto-currencies much less stop people who can use a VPN. What makes you think a government that is so incompetent that it can't even get people to wear masks will suddenly stop alternative finance methods? BaFin in Germany got made to look like absolute retards. Government is decades behind tech. I'm very excited for the future. You should be to! Especially with the brewing Tech Bro vs Journalist fight. I'm looking forward to white journalists being cancelled for going up against diverse CEOs of color.

[Kowani]

Social shunning for being racist is more effective on a mass scale than social shunning for welfare use, the latter of which tends to be limited to the person’s immediate family and social relationships. You must work on all dimensions, the intimate and the external.

TBH though, if you're on welfare for our ideological views, you'd likely to see that as a form of political persecution anyway, which is likely to undercut the welfare shaming.

Shrug. Ostracism is a very powerful thing, actually. Considering the general social reproach, and loss of respect from your loved ones, yeah, I’d say it goes pretty deep.

And again, in the objective sense, most people aren't defined by their jobs, as the link you gave showed. Most just see it as something they do the live.

This is only true for private sector employees, and even among them, a slight majority.
But. You’re conflating ones self image as a worker or independent with the slightly more dubious
one of a particular job. in particular, we find that older men, who are more likely to be conservative, suffer psychologically from being on welfare.

[Vapormancer]

TBH though, if you're on welfare for our ideological views, you'd likely to see that as a form of political persecution anyway, which is likely to undercut the welfare shaming.

Shrug. Ostracism is a very powerful thing, actually. Considering the general social reproach, and loss of respect from your loved ones, yeah, I’d say it goes pretty deep.

And again, in the objective sense, most people aren't defined by their jobs, as the link you gave showed. Most just see it as something they do the live.

This is only true for private sector employees, and even among them, a slight majority.
But. You’re conflating ones self image as a worker or independent with the slightly more dubious
one of a particular job. in particular, we find that older men, who are more likely to be conservative, suffer psychologically from being on welfare.

What about younger men who have zero stake in society and nothing to lose? You're practically rewarding them. Its not like a college degree making powerpoints for 30 years and no pension is particularly a good thing to look forward to. They can shitpost and play vidya all day. If all you have to look forward to is a shittier version of Brazil, its practical nirvana by comparison.

[Radfems Inc]

TBH though, if you're on welfare for our ideological views, you'd likely to see that as a form of political persecution anyway, which is likely to undercut the welfare shaming.

Shrug. Ostracism is a very powerful thing, actually. Considering the general social reproach, and loss of respect from your loved ones, yeah, I’d say it goes pretty deep.

Notably, most of those pursued have been private sector employees, which makes sense, as they make up a much larger share of employees.

Besides, you don't even have to tell anyone you're on welfare, what with the work at home thing going on.

And again, in the objective sense, most people aren't defined by their jobs, as the link you gave showed. Most just see it as something they do the live.

This is only true for private sector employees, and even among them, a slight majority.
But. You’re conflating ones self image as a worker or independent with the slightly more dubious
one of a particular job. in particular, we find that older men, who are more likely to be conservative, suffer psychologically from being on welfare.

Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.

[Vapormancer]

Shrug. Ostracism is a very powerful thing, actually. Considering the general social reproach, and loss of respect from your loved ones, yeah, I’d say it goes pretty deep.

Notably, most of those pursued have been private sector employees, which makes sense, as they make up a much larger share of employees.

Besides, you don't even have to tell anyone you're on welfare, what with the work at home thing going on.

This is only true for private sector employees, and even among them, a slight majority.
But. You’re conflating ones self image as a worker or independent with the slightly more dubious
one of a particular job. in particular, we find that older men, who are more likely to be conservative, suffer psychologically from being on welfare.

Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.

What lessons do you think people are learning from the collapse in authority of civil government? Do you think perhaps anybody is drawing a lesson from the fact it will cave to both protesters and cops? How about the lesson of Mayor Lightfoot, if Walmart says jump, a progressive asks how high? Pain certainly is a learning experience, just not in the direction I believe you are prepared for.

[Radfems Inc]

It seems like we could prevent foreign actors from interfering with our system by denying them access to our shores when it comes to things like banking.

I hadn't really thought about your line of reasoning though. Everyone informs their employers that they're racist assholes, but no one informs their banks. I know a lot of that stuff is secret for a reason, but we ought to consider if it's known who their bank is to apply pressure that way as well. The bank employees can't be happy about serving white supremacist customers, and having to put up with them when they come in for services definitely would put off black people from the banking industry (which is predominantly white and male). Kicking them out of it would probably help increase minority representation in the banking industry.

They already inform banks, this has been the latest line of attack. No worries, Goldman Sachs said no more IPOs by all white company boards. No doubt this commitment to social justice will stop them raping small countries with bad loans! I wonder what will happen to the people who point out that Goldman Sachs and friends do this to places like Greece? Hmm.... I wonder what negative consequences this could entail.

Not all allies against white supremacy are good allies, but they are still allies. It's good that the proud boys can't get banking services - maybe they'll see the error of their ways if they suffer enough.

This country can't stop the flow of meme crypto-currencies much less stop people who can use a VPN. What makes you think a government that is so incompetent that it can't even get people to wear masks will suddenly stop alternative finance methods? BaFin in Germany got made to look like absolute retards. Government is decades behind tech. I'm very excited for the future. You should be to! Especially with the brewing Tech Bro vs Journalist fight. I'm looking forward to white journalists being cancelled for going up against diverse CEOs of color.

Well we need to stop white supremacy. This is regardless of whether they're ceos, journalists, or posters on NSG. I have every confidence our new minority driven government in January will tackle this with great ability. The fact that Trump and his ilk are incompetent and unable to run things doesn't mean Biden and his people won't be.

[Kowani]

What about younger men who have zero stake in society and nothing to lose? You're practically rewarding them. Its not like a college degree making powerpoints for 30 years and no pension is particularly a good thing to look forward to. They can shitpost and play vidya all day. If all you have to look forward to is a shittier version of Brazil, its practical nirvana by comparison.

The younger generations, in addition to being massively less conservative than anything preceding them, and much more racially tolerant, are still dependent on societal approval, and it is the latter which we seek to remove. If we cannot change the thought process of some racists, that is alright, because we show the undecided and the young that such thoughts are unacceptable.
It’s similar to China and HK booksellers.

Shrug. Ostracism is a very powerful thing, actually. Considering the general social reproach, and loss of respect from your loved ones, yeah, I’d say it goes pretty deep.

Notably, most of those pursued have been private sector employees, which makes sense, as they make up a much larger share of employees.

And yet even they still require societal approval and validation.

Besides, you don't even have to tell anyone you're on welfare, what with the work at home thing going on.

…The unemployment rate has skyrocketed, you think all those people are just lying to their family and friends?

This is only true for private sector employees, and even among them, a slight majority.
But. You’re conflating ones self image as a worker or independent with the slightly more dubious
one of a particular job. in particular, we find that older men, who are more likely to be conservative, suffer psychologically from being on welfare.

Well that's good. Causing suffering is how you bring about change. There's a reason why pain is such a learning experience.

…This is not actually entirely true, by the way, punishment is extremely ineffective as a teaching tool for an individual, but it’s much better at moving groups.

[Kowani]

They already inform banks, this has been the latest line of attack. No worries, Goldman Sachs said no more IPOs by all white company boards. No doubt this commitment to social justice will stop them raping small countries with bad loans! I wonder what will happen to the people who point out that Goldman Sachs and friends do this to places like Greece? Hmm.... I wonder what negative consequences this could entail.

Not all allies against white supremacy are good allies, but they are still allies. It's good that the proud boys can't get banking services - maybe they'll see the error of their ways if they suffer enough.

This country can't stop the flow of meme crypto-currencies much less stop people who can use a VPN. What makes you think a government that is so incompetent that it can't even get people to wear masks will suddenly stop alternative finance methods? BaFin in Germany got made to look like absolute retards. Government is decades behind tech. I'm very excited for the future. You should be to! Especially with the brewing Tech Bro vs Journalist fight. I'm looking forward to white journalists being cancelled for going up against diverse CEOs of color.

Well we need to stop white supremacy. This is regardless of whether they're ceos, journalists, or posters on NSG. I have every confidence our new minority driven government in January will tackle this with great ability. The fact that Trump and his ilk are incompetent and unable to run things doesn't mean Biden and his people won't be.

More. Black. Female. Bomber pilots.

Seriously, is the extent of your thinking “diverse, therefore not racist?”

[Vapormancer]

They already inform banks, this has been the latest line of attack. No worries, Goldman Sachs said no more IPOs by all white company boards. No doubt this commitment to social justice will stop them raping small countries with bad loans! I wonder what will happen to the people who point out that Goldman Sachs and friends do this to places like Greece? Hmm.... I wonder what negative consequences this could entail.

Not all allies against white supremacy are good allies, but they are still allies. It's good that the proud boys can't get banking services - maybe they'll see the error of their ways if they suffer enough.

This country can't stop the flow of meme crypto-currencies much less stop people who can use a VPN. What makes you think a government that is so incompetent that it can't even get people to wear masks will suddenly stop alternative finance methods? BaFin in Germany got made to look like absolute retards. Government is decades behind tech. I'm very excited for the future. You should be to! Especially with the brewing Tech Bro vs Journalist fight. I'm looking forward to white journalists being cancelled for going up against diverse CEOs of color.

Well we need to stop white supremacy. This is regardless of whether they're ceos, journalists, or posters on NSG. I have every confidence our new minority driven government in January will tackle this with great ability. The fact that Trump and his ilk are incompetent and unable to run things doesn't mean Biden and his people won't be.

Ah yes, Bitcoin was invented on January 20th, 2017. I had forgotten! You rumbled me again.

This mind you, was also the same Obama government that encouraged the Shia death squads that lead to rise of IS and intervened in Libya under the guise "limited humanitarian intervention" while ruthlessly quashing domestic dissident. I'm sure Mr. Biden won't do anything of the sort and will be both competent & keep a very diverse cabinet. You still haven't found a counter for the alternative finance stuff. How will you stop it? As well, how do you keep CEOs of Color from crushing the NYT? Afterall, you've now made bed with them. Will you threaten their non-real assets with riots? Perhaps you'll have Mayor Lightfoot send in the PMCs again.

[Vapormancer]

What about younger men who have zero stake in society and nothing to lose? You're practically rewarding them. Its not like a college degree making powerpoints for 30 years and no pension is particularly a good thing to look forward to. They can shitpost and play vidya all day. If all you have to look forward to is a shittier version of Brazil, its practical nirvana by comparison.

The younger generations, in addition to being massively less conservative than anything preceding them, and much more racially tolerant, are still dependent on societal approval, and it is the latter which we seek to remove. If we cannot change the thought process of some racists, that is alright, because we show the undecided and the young that such thoughts are unacceptable.
It’s similar to China and HK booksellers.

So you'll start a massive uprising, riots and exodus of your most talented???? That doesn't seem a good outcome, that seems rather insane. I wasn't aware you thought extrajudicial lawlessness and terror tactics a good thing. Perhaps its a good thing your ideas have been more thoroughly exposed.

By the way, what do you think happens to your anti-war and pro-labor friends on the left? Are you excited for them to become victims of the world that is coming?