Self-Defense and Entitlement

by **Galloism** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:08 pm

Auristania wrote:
Andsed wrote:That is not really a good idea. Escalating into a physical fight is not going to help and will likely just cause injuries. It is better to simply lock your doors and call the cops and let them handle things from there.

Call the cops??? Why not drive away???
Nobody is sane anymore.

Mrs Black was NOT damaging the car with violence. She was punching the car which caused zero damage except to her fists. Please watch that Laurel and Hardy movie where Ben pulls off the mirrors, wipers etc and does cause damage so you may spot the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNsfms8hEU

They likely would have had to drive over her to drive away, since she positioned herself to block the vehicle.

Which is also a crime - hit and run.

by **Salus Maior** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:09 pm

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:Everyone was being an asshole and making it worst than it should've been. From the video, I got the impression that the white woman bumped into the daughter's car. It makes sense that she didn't think it was worth calling the police but wanted an apology. The couple could've just apologized, or just straight up left when they had the chance. Staying around to argue it was pointless and intentional escalating over a small thing.

The mother and daughter didn't need to call the couple ignorant but it would've been best for everyone involved to move on. I couldn't hear what the white woman said when she was driving away, but it seemed intentionally provocative. The mother and daughter should've have just left at this point and not respond instead of shouting back and acting aggressive.

Aiming at them and and loading the gun was unjustified though. You should only do that if you're thinking to shoot what you're pointing at. Seeing as they were clearly avoidable, she was purposely trying to scare them with a lethal weapon into backing down. Nobody did anything right but two wrongs don't make endangering someone's life right.

When did they have a chance? The woman and her daughter were cornering the white woman in the beginning of the video until her husband came along, and when they were finally in the car and trying to leave the black woman got behind the car and was hitting it.

The mother and daughter were trying to keep them in the situation.

by **Andsed** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:10 pm

Auristania wrote:
Andsed wrote:That is not really a good idea. Escalating into a physical fight is not going to help and will likely just cause injuries. It is better to simply lock your doors and call the cops and let them handle things from there.

Call the cops??? Why not drive away???
Nobody is sane anymore.

Mrs Black was NOT damaging the car with violence. She was punching the car which caused zero damage except to her fists. Please watch that Laurel and Hardy movie where Ben pulls off the mirrors, wipers etc and does cause damage so you may spot the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNsfms8hEU

If you can drive away you should yes. I was talking about a situation like this where it is not an option because the person is blocking the car.

by **USS Monitor** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:36 pm

Godular wrote:So if I understand the situation correctly, the daughter decided to confront the white woman after the two bumped into each other, specifically to demand an apology.

Oh, one of those. I've been around the block enough times with that sort of behavior.

The whole episode is rather dumb, though. I don't think any of the people involved handled it well.

by **Rojava Free State** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:18 pm

I love how she wanted to act like some hot shit and then when a gun was in her face she yelled at her daughter to call the cops.

If you wanna throw down then throw down. If you don't then shut your bitch ass up and get on home. Pulling a gun may have not been necessary but holy crap did the mom and daughter keep trying to fight. They don't seem to victim-like to me.

by **Salus Maior** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:29 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:I love how she wanted to act like some hot shit and then when a gun was in her face she yelled at her daughter to call the cops.

If you wanna throw down then throw down. If you don't then shut your bitch ass up and get on home. Pulling a gun may have not been necessary but holy crap did the mom and daughter keep trying to fight. They don't seem to victim-like to me.

Yeah, they're not victims. I hope the charges against the woman and her husband are dropped.

by **Rojava Free State** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:43 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:I love how she wanted to act like some hot shit and then when a gun was in her face she yelled at her daughter to call the cops.

If you wanna throw down then throw down. If you don't then shut your bitch ass up and get on home. Pulling a gun may have not been necessary but holy crap did the mom and daughter keep trying to fight. They don't seem to victim-like to me.

Yeah, they're not victims. I hope the charges against the woman and her husband are dropped.

The woman and her daughter honestly got very lucky. There is many a person in this world who would have thrown down with them over this shit and they were fortunate enough to run into someone who wasn't gonna brutally pummel them or worse. There are less friendly people out there. I would hope this is the last time they do this stupid shit but I doubt it, and if they keep it up, one day they're gonna run into trouble. You can't pick fights forever and not expect to get hurt eventually.

by **WayNeacTia** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:22 pm

Watched that entire video. The mother and daughter made multiple attempts to prevent the couple from leaving. Apparently the mothers handprint was indeed on the back window of the couples SUV, but police are baffled as to how it got there. Apparently listening to the audio and hearing her hit the back window in an attempt to break it is hard? All in all the police once again fucked up. The mother and daughter should have been charged with assault and unlawful confinement for not letting them leave. Good thing no jury will convict.

by **Salus Maior** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:40 pm

Wayneactia wrote:Watched that entire video. The mother and daughter made multiple attempts to prevent the couple from leaving. Apparently the mothers handprint was indeed on the back window of the couples SUV, but police are baffled as to how it got there. Apparently listening to the audio and hearing her hit the back window in an attempt to break it is hard? All in all the police once again fucked up. The mother and daughter should have been charged with assault and unlawful confinement for not letting them leave. Good thing no jury will convict.

Well, one can hope.

by **Soiled fruit roll ups** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:49 am

The state will not protect you.
The state will not permit you to protect yourself.
The state will protect those who do you harm. <- YOU ARE HERE
The state will encourage people to harm you.
The state will harm you themselves.

by **Nobel Hobos 2** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:29 am

Soiled fruit roll ups wrote:The state will not protect you.
The state will not permit you to protect yourself.
The state will protect those who do you harm. <- YOU ARE HERE
The state will encourage people to harm you.
The state will harm you themselves.

Poorly thought out meme. It's possible for the state to do several of those things at once, depending on who you are.

Ex-felons are commonly denied self-defense.
While law abiding citizens are sometimes harmed by police: employees of the state.

If you want to go full propertarian (property is an extension of the self) then the state is already harming pretty much everyone.

by **The Huskar Social Union** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:32 am

This whole situation is a mess, it looked like there were soo many opportunities to deescalate the situation and people kept escalating instead. Having watched both videos im leaning towards supporting the Couple, dont think drawing the gun was necessary but the black woman and her daughter escalated this repeatedly and i think they are the ones who should have been charged in this case.

by **Alien Overlord** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:14 am

As others have said before me, the beginning of the altercation was nothing short of a mess. On one hand an apology from the couple could have sufficed to deescalate, though it was their right not to apologize. They took the appropriate action and tried to leave. The mother/daughter blocking the vehicle and preventing the couple from leaving was a MAJOR point of escalation. Faced with this situation originally the couple had the choice of fight or flight. They chose flight as was there right, and only initiated 'fight' after they were unable to take the route of 'flight.'

This concept is as old as the Art of War. One critical blunder you don't want to make as an offensive commander is not giving your enemy some method of retreat and put them in a position where they feel they have no choice but to defend themselves. If you make retreat impossible you make aggression inevitable. The mother and/or daughter could have been shot and it would have been their fault. The appropriate response for them would have been to deescalate and just leave.

The mother/daughter should be charged, the couple did nothing wrong in this situation.

by **Cameroi** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:22 am

why pull a gun if you're already sitting in a weapon just as deadly?

just rev the engine a couple of times is someone is standing in front of the car.

i won't take sides in a conflict without reliable knowledge of complete detail.

verbal threats and gun pulling are both actionable offenses.

by **An Alan Smithee Nation** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:28 am

Ubiquitous gun carrying and increasing population density leads nowhere good, unless people have enough self control not to draw weapons in this sort of situation.

by **Ostroeuropa** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:34 am

Page wrote:
Atheris wrote:If they started hitting her car, then that falls under self-defense. I have no sympathy for the woman and her daughter.

Is it your view that any aggression against property can justify pulling a gun?

Frankly, when it's a racist attack on your property, yes. It also occurred after she threatened the husband with bodily harm. Following that threat to his person, they began to attack the vehicle they were in. Pulling the gun is justified.

What's not justified is that the racist ideology of the identity politics of the left wing is creating racist goons like this, but is also so pervasive and has so thoroughly warped society that defending yourself from them puts you in the wrong.

If a neo-Nazi went up to a black couple, started harassing them, and threatened to beat up one of them, then started attacking their vehicle, do you think they'd be justified in pulling a gun?

It's obvious.

The context of BLM and the left wings incitement of racist violence and hatred also needs to be borne in mind, and given the black couple were actively emulating this kind of hate ideology during their attack, should inform our understanding, here are just some of the incidents this bares resemblance to where people radicalized by the hate movement have gone on to do violence to persons and property:

So, again.

Let's suppose a black couple is walking down the streets in the midst of a wave of neo-Nazi attacks on black peoples persons and property, where the media is actively pushing Nazi rhetoric 24/7 and demonizing black people.
Let's suppose an incident like this occurs and the neo-Nazi is now spouting that same rhetoric, threating you with violence, and begins attacking your vehicle.

Why wouldn't you pull a gun?

"Despite the recent wave of zombie attacks, no 'reasonable person' would pull a gun on someone who begins frothing at the mouth, howling, and shambling towards you, even if they do keep snapping their jaws in your direction, that's no evidence they'd actually bite you and you are in danger.".

Ridiculous.

Let's frame this another way, are black people "reasonably" afraid of police violence, or aren't they?

The solution is fairly obvious here. Don't spout anti-white racist rhetoric while threatening white people with violence, harassing them, and attacking their property, while simultaneously acting like they're "Unreasonable" for viewing that as a threat, especially in the context of a wave of murders, beatings, and property destruction from people displaying exactly the same mentality and behavior, and using the same rhetoric.

by **Nobel Hobos 2** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:41 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:...

I reported you for spamming, in case you want to defend yourself.

by **Alien Overlord** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:19 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:...

I reported you for spamming, in case you want to defend yourself.

Mods took the appropriate response, Ostroeuropa wasn't spamming-merely backing up their opinion with relevant evidence.

To that effect i have to say that i agree. It does seem as though the BLM movement has become more radical (and unnecessarily violent) as time has passed. I would dare say that the BLM has become inherently racist given that so many of it's supporters espouse racist ideology. When that sort of ideology is being spouted and you're presented with someone who could potentially be linked to a group that has caused so much damage, it would be unreasonable if you didn't feel threatened.

I would compare this situation almost to the situation of a someone being mugged and the mugger accuses the victim of being a mugger. "Actions speak louder than words." The mother/daughter accusing the couple of racism is probably due to the mother/daughter themselves being racist. The women from the couple bumped into the daughter and refused to apologize. The daughter accused to the women of being racist likely because she was white, as i doubt that accusation would have been used if the women was black. The assumption that anyone of a different race who treats you disrespectfully must be racist, is in itself a racist idea.

by **The Reformed American Republic** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:24 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:...

I reported you for spamming, in case you want to defend yourself.

I'm sure the motive here is political.

by **Rojava Free State** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:19 am

Many fights like the one you saw on video happen all the time in Detroit. The only reason this is making news is because the woman didn't shoot and because she was white. If this had been two black women, it would have been backpage. No one would care, and it would end up in the same place as the other hundreds of homicides, assaults, robberies and burglaries we had this year.

by **Asle Leopolka** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:...

I reported you for spamming, in case you want to defend yourself.

by **The Reformed American Republic** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:50 am

Rojava Free State wrote:Many fights like the one you saw on video happen all the time in Detroit. The only reason this is making news is because the woman didn't shoot and because she was white. If this had been two black women, it would have been backpage. No one would care, and it would end up in the same place as the other hundreds of homicides, assaults, robberies and burglaries we had this year.

Mainly because she is white and people gotta grandstand.

by **Aclion** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:46 am

Diopolis wrote:
Galloism wrote:It wasn’t really a “draw your gun” type of scenario. It’s a “get in your vehicle, lock your doors, and if they block you from leaving, call the cops” situation.

I agree that he shouldn't have drawn his gun.
But it really shouldn't be a felony to draw your gun when someone threatens your pregnant(?) wife and attempts to keep her from leaving.

It certinly shouldn't be, by the claimants own admission they committed assault, battery, and unlawful restraint any one of which justify self defense. And you can add in disorderly conduct and stalking for good measure.

by **Kernen** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:47 pm

The mother and daughter absolutely instigated and made this much more intense than it needed to be. It is hard to credibly argue otherwise.

Nonetheless, this does not rise to a objectively reasonable belief of imminent threat to life or limb. Possibly it could have gotten there, but you don't get to shortcut a situation that may go pear-shaped. Not self defense from what I can tell, which is almost a shame, because its most of the way there. Had the pistol stayed holstered until somebody struck the husband or wife, this would be a different story, I imagine.

by **Salus Maior** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:49 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:Many fights like the one you saw on video happen all the time in Detroit. The only reason this is making news is because the woman didn't shoot and because she was white. If this had been two black women, it would have been backpage. No one would care, and it would end up in the same place as the other hundreds of homicides, assaults, robberies and burglaries we had this year.

Mainly because she is white and people gotta grandstand.

Also, is she pregnant?

Self-Defense and Entitlement

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